Deeper zones? Well, why not?

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Excellent! This is getting better and better.

[knighthawk75 56]

Really nice work and contribution, really jump starts anyone who wants to tinker in this area.

 

[Ryno917 102]

Awesome, awesome stuff! Thanks for getting this rolling!

[boformer 3,169]

Progress of today:

Zone depth can now be set per road segment. I just have to add a slider to the toolbar and solve a few problems related to existing road segments (the code for it already exists in Network Skins). What is also still missing is the serialization of the zone type for deeper cells.

The new code was pushed to the repository.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Brilliant! Just the addition of the zone depth slider is useful enough without even the deeper zones.

[Shroomblaze 320]

We are about to see a whole new Cities Skylines unfold! I mean literally with a slider! Amazing Work, can't wait to see this mod on the workshop.

[Roadman20 601]

Welp, everytime I try to expand Seattle, I find myself looking at the new stuff on the cusp of coming out I say, "I gotta go back to redo things."

[boformer 3,169]

I guess I will just add a key combination to change zone depth (CTRL + PAGEUP/DOWN). I hate GUIs...

Instead I will create a few infographics to explain how the spawning algorithm works.

[boformer 3,169]

Here is the explanation: It reveals some interesting details

 

[boformer 3,169]

Last Update for at least one month (who wants to take over?):

• The extra zone data is now persistent
• Zone depth for new roads can be controlled with ALT + UP/DOWN (range 0-8)
• Problems related to splitting road segments have been solved using the Network Skins code

The zoning part is usable and seems to be quite stable. Now the other 2 modules have to be implemented: Larger growables and a new spawning/upgrading algorithm

 

 

 

[boldlybuilding 873]

Excellent! I hope others decide to try their hand at making this a complete reality in the meantime.

When you say larger growables, what's involved with that? I never checked, but it's fair to assume lot sizes are limited when making growable lots in the editor, so something would need to be modded there?

[boformer 3,169]

28 minutes ago, boldlybuilding said:

Excellent! I hope others decide to try their hand at making this a complete reality in the meantime.

When you say larger growables, what's involved with that? I never checked, but it's fair to assume lot sizes are limited when making growable lots in the editor, so something would need to be modded there?

Yeah, basically the mod must do the same thing as Larger Footprints. CO added a few extra 4x4 checks in random places just to make our life harder.

[ethansprang 41]

This looks awesome.  8x8 is an acre - perfect!

A 4x4 lot is only .25 acre - average for American suburban homes.  Exurban and luxury lots are common in the .5-1.5 acre range, so 8x8 for luxury estates is totally reasonable.

Commercial strip malls will look a lot better if they can have more parking in front, instead of trying to build ped-path parking and frontage roads.

However - is possible, you should consider putting some clear default lot-sizes in your final implementation of growables, like at say 6 and 8 deep.  One advantage of 4x4 is it keeps the number of possible dimensions down, especially considering corners.  Only 11 sizes really get used ingame, and not that many for corners.  If modders start adding both 5x7 and 7x5 etc... it's gonna get ugly, in terms of upgrade paths, memory usage, etc.

What sizes would really be needed to give a feel to the city?  

• 3x6, 4x6, 6x6, 8x6,
• 3x8, 4x8, 6x8, 8x8.

Yes, there are LOTS of real-world buildings that are narrower, but each additional lot size will make it that much harder to make themes and allow upgrades.

A necessary companion to this will be something to allow the same asset model to be used for multiple lot types/levels/orientations without needing to be loaded separately each time, to reduce memory loads.

[Koesj 659]

Might I also suggest wide buildings, like 6x4 or 8x4, so I could throw in stuff like my corporate modernist offices 

[Ocram's Razr 964]

5 hours ago, Koesj said:

Might I also suggest wide buildings, like 6x4 or 8x4, so I could throw in stuff like my corporate modernist offices 

That's already possible with themes and model variants.

[Koesj 659]

How so? Through mirroring wall-to-wall buildings you mean? I'd rather have a more versatile system where wider as well as deeper buildings are incorporated, if it was up to me of course. Asymmetric buidlings come to mind!

[Feindbold 1,190]

This is some really amazing stuff!

I wish I could take over, but thats probably far too complicated

I will model bigger buildings though.

[boformer 3,169]

6 hours ago, ethansprang said:

Yes, there are LOTS of real-world buildings that are narrower, but each additional lot size will make it that much harder to make themes and allow upgrades.

A necessary companion to this will be something to allow the same asset model to be used for multiple lot types/levels/orientations without needing to be loaded separately each time, to reduce memory loads.

We already have the "backyard expansion" feature that extends lots to the back.

It would be great if the mod could also add "sideway expansion".

An even better solution would be the ability to import a building in the editor, then create multiple plot size variations of it (all with their own prop setup). All those variations are then saved in a single crp file so that the loading times are acceptable.

I also thought about setting the max lot size to 16x8 (wider) or even 16x16 (using front and back road zones).

That would be a decent size for farm fields, large commercial stores with parking and larger warehouses.

Replacing the level system (multi-level buildings) would require a whole load of detours (basically every second method of the growable building AIs).

It would be a pain to maintain that when CO publishes an update, but I think it is possible and desirable.

Replacing the upgrade mechanism would also be in scope of this mod:

On upgrade, their should be a chance that neighboring lots merge so that a bigger building spawns. And it should be possible that a lot splits up into multiple smaller lots.

[hbn 244]

Great work. Is it just me or do 1x8 zones look odd though? I'm sure they'll look a lot better when populated by something... That depth selection tool looks very useful mind. Especially for more advanced layouts where you can't get buildings or zones quite the way you want them to go.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

2 hours ago, Koesj said:

How so? Through mirroring wall-to-wall buildings you mean? I'd rather have a more versatile system where wider as well as deeper buildings are incorporated, if it was up to me of course. Asymmetric buidlings come to mind!

I haven't delved deeply into modding. I haven't even put anything on the workshop yet! However, I have kept up to date on progress by modders here and have toyed around with the asset editor. Someone found a way to switch-out props (including pipes, sky bridges, lobbies, and other connecting pieces for buildings) if specially tagged buildings are directly adjacent to each other. It supposedly works with plops and zones though I will use for ploppable RICO for my skyscrapers and midrises inspired by Hugh Ferris and Fritz Lang.

[boformer 3,169]

1 hour ago, AJ3D said:

-Has anyone played around with adding custom data to the .crp files? Is there any room for mod data?

For sure there is. It would be great if CO would add an API for that (like the serializable data API).

1 hour ago, AJ3D said:

-I like the idea of asset authors uploading dummy assets with bundled .xml files for growable settings. The mod would assign the derived or detoured AI on scene load. The advantage here is that the game won't throw an insane amount of errors when the mod is turned off. Unless there is something big I'm missing, I don't see a reason the prefabs need to have the growable AI assigned during the normal loading process. I don't think the dummy buildings will clear the zoning...

I thought about this again. I think it makes sense to publish oversized growables as unique buildings (with 16x8 size limit) and replace the AI on level load. That way the city could still be loaded without the mod, at least visually.

[Jasoncw 11,933]

Thanks for working on this, this is a big deal.  

Earlier you mentioned sized bigger than 8x8, and while I don't know what would be involved in doing that, imo 8x8 is still an unpleasant restriction. 8x8 in Cities Skylines is 4x4 in SC4, and while a lot of meat and potato buildings fit in that range, there are tons of buildings that ought to be growables that are bigger than that.  

[boformer 3,169]

At a later point, it might be possible to increase zoning depth to 12 cells. I think that growable buildings should not exceed the current size range of ploppable buildings:

16x8, 15x9, 14x11, 13x12, 12x13, 11x14, 9x15, 8x16

That way assets created for this mod can always be used as unique buildings, even when the mod is not installed.

12x13 is 96x104m, which is a decent size for an industrial asset

[Nevermore2797 112]

Looks like we're gonna need MOAR!! buildings that requires this... I'm predicting a CAM version of Cities Skylines and MOAR!! Incoming!!! like, like..... hmm.... maybe, a possibility of converting some SimCity 4 buildings to here -- same with SimCity 2013...?? 

[ethansprang 41]

8 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

Thanks for working on this, this is a big deal.  

Earlier you mentioned sized bigger than 8x8, and while I don't know what would be involved in doing that, imo 8x8 is still an unpleasant restriction. 8x8 in Cities Skylines is 4x4 in SC4, and while a lot of meat and potato buildings fit in that range, there are tons of buildings that ought to be growables that are bigger than that.  

I think growable *structures* that are bigger than an acre would be rare.  Maybe large "light industrial" buildings and some big-box stores.  But more often you'd want to plop those as ploppable RICO.  

8x8 is an acre.  Larger lots are likely to be mostly parking lot or landscaping. I think a lot of use of this will come from larger setbacks for buildings, to mimic the suburban 'office park'., with medium sized buildings and lots of open space.

It's wierd - real-world developers usually don't have choices about such things.  The FAR limits how much building they can build, so midrise office buildings - which are efficient and less expensive - must be surrounded by huge greenspace or acres of parking. As gamers, we have total control and choice over the look of the buildings - and yet we are trying as hard as we can to mimic a built environment that exists *solely* as an attempt to circumvent the idiocy of an outdated and wasteful regulatory environment.

ALSO: without some larger/more complex props, the 64 prop limit is going to feel real small.  Gonna need props of

• larger, bland planters and tree lines - combinations of bushes, flowers, hardscapes
• much longer sets of parking spaces,
• some other parking lot markings/structures - arrow decals, curbs
• maybe a set of landscaped corporate logo-style billboards (randomized?) for entrances

[Jasoncw 11,933]

5 hours ago, ethansprang said:

I think growable *structures* that are bigger than an acre would be rare.  Maybe large "light industrial" buildings and some big-box stores.  But more often you'd want to plop those as ploppable RICO.  

8x8 is an acre.  Larger lots are likely to be mostly parking lot or landscaping. I think a lot of use of this will come from larger setbacks for buildings, to mimic the suburban 'office park'., with medium sized buildings and lots of open space.

It's wierd - real-world developers usually don't have choices about such things.  The FAR limits how much building they can build, so midrise office buildings - which are efficient and less expensive - must be surrounded by huge greenspace or acres of parking. As gamers, we have total control and choice over the look of the buildings - and yet we are trying as hard as we can to mimic a built environment that exists *solely* as an attempt to circumvent the idiocy of an outdated and wasteful regulatory environment.

ALSO: without some larger/more complex props, the 64 prop limit is going to feel real small.  Gonna need props of

• larger, bland planters and tree lines - combinations of bushes, flowers, hardscapes
• much longer sets of parking spaces,
• some other parking lot markings/structures - arrow decals, curbs
• maybe a set of landscaped corporate logo-style billboards (randomized?) for entrances

Looking around downtown Detroit and now Chicago, tons of the buildings are bigger than 8 tiles in one of the directions, and many of the remaining ones come up close to 8. Basically any building that is long will be over 8 tiles. Even suburban midrise office buildings, not counting any of the open space, would either get close to or surpass 8 tiles in one direction. And this is all just for vertical buildings, any low and flat buildings are pretty much guaranteed to go over 8 tiles.

I can't help but compare it to SC4, but the current limit in CS is a 2x2 lot in SC4, and an 8x8 lot in CS is a 4x4 in SC4. While that is a dramatic and important improvement, there are tons and tons of normal buildings that are more than 4 SC4 tiles or 8 CS tiles long. Even out of my current SC4 BAT works in progress most of them wouldn't fit within 8 CS tiles.

If anything the whole issue just highlights how bad they screwed up while making the game because as they shipped it, the vast majority of buildings in real life can't actually be grown in the game.  

[boldlybuilding 873]

I still maintain that for a game called "Skylines," you can't make very good skylines when all the vanilla buildings only go so high with these tiny lots. And I will always hate the idea of scaling things down. The game's scaling and 1:1 is fine, it's just its zones, and so its growable buildings, are too small and short. It's not realistic. I just REALLY hope this changes with either a mod, or if CO is listening, something more official.

[boformer 3,169]

A functioning prototype of this mod that converts unique buildings into larger growables and spawns them on the larger zones could probably be made in a day or two.

I think 64 props is enough, that's one prop per cell of a 8x8 building. This limit really makes sense (but could be raised if really needed).

[ethansprang 41]

48 minutes ago, Jasoncw said:

Looking around downtown Detroit and now Chicago, tons of the buildings are bigger than 8 tiles in one of the directions, and many of the remaining ones come up close to 8. Basically any building that is long will be over 8 tiles. Even suburban midrise office buildings, not counting any of the open space, would either get close to or surpass 8 tiles in one direction. And this is all just for vertical buildings, any low and flat buildings are pretty much guaranteed to go over 8 tiles.

I can't help but compare it to SC4, but the current limit in CS is a 2x2 lot in SC4, and an 8x8 lot in CS is a 4x4 in SC4. While that is a dramatic and important improvement, there are tons and tons of normal buildings that are more than 4 SC4 tiles or 8 CS tiles long. Even out of my current SC4 BAT works in progress most of them wouldn't fit within 8 CS tiles.

If anything the whole issue just highlights how bad they screwed up while making the game because as they shipped it, the vast majority of buildings in real life can't actually be grown in the game.  

Agreed that 8x8 is a good size, and that CS'' 4x4 is clearly too small.  When nearly every recognizable skyscraper unique on the Workshop is bigger than 4x4, then clearly the growables are too small.

But it is not necessary that EVERY building be growable.  Chicago's grid in the Loop is square, at about 120m, or about 15 cells.  Clearly, any building that occupies an entire city block will be larger than an 8x8 growable limit, but how many of those are there in Chicago?  Willis Tower is most of a block, but it's a smaller block cropped by the river, and there's still a large plaza on the south side of it.  There are a fair number of buildings that occupy about half a block, which would make them 16x8 or so - they tend to face a street on the long side.  And there are some that are just huge, like the Chicago Hilton, which does fill an entire block, including it's multistory garage.

But for *growables* - the non-signature buildings that form the canvas on which your city's distinctiveness is expressed - those don't need to be much bigger than 8x8, if at all. 

[boldlybuilding 873]

...And because I never shut up about it, to elaborate on my point about 1:1 buildings not actually being too big and the game's buildings just being too small...

Let's not forget just how much the Empire State Building dwarfed nearby buildings when it was built. Even today the surrounding buildings are mostly much smaller. There wasn't something wrong with scaling, there just weren't many big buildings at the time.

And the World Trade Center. My biggest asset ,and probably among the biggest on the Workshop. When the site was originally cleared, they had to demolish 13 whole blocks of much tinier buildings:

Just as in the game, if you want to build my WTC, you'll end up having to clear a ton of buildings and several blocks. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just like real life. Makes it more realistic. It's just that all the game's buildings and zones are on par with those tiny buildings, and there aren't enough big ones.

And after the World Trade Center was built...

...it was immense even next to the other skyscrapers in the area.

So that's why I refuse to scale down my buildings, and instead expect either the game to be modded, more big buildings made, or CO to jump in and give us bigger zones. 1:1 isn't unrealistic, and maybe it looks strange when you first build these big towers in the game, but that's no different from real life. Just get bigger zones and more big buildings, then we truly can have great skylines, and not these low-rise, small scale deals everybody does.