Big-tile cities

[MintberryCrunch 83]

Ever since I've been playing this game, since last summer, I've dealt almost exclusively in medium-tiles, with some small-tile farming towns. My biggest city is a medium-tile city with a population of 260,000. 

Recently I started a big-tile city and I find it to be a bit overwhelming. How big is too big for a big-tile city? At what point does the game really start to slow down (for you--obviously I know everyone's computers are different)? Do you plan things ahead or just kinda make it up as you go along? What's the biggest big-tile city you've ever created? You can include a picture of it if it helps

[T Wrecks 10,209]

I think the typical process is that first you go all big tiles and still want more - see the constant demands for bigger and even bigger city tiles. Then, as you get the hang of the game, you realise that you can use the region mechanics to create a coherent city, and as you run into hardware problems (city running slow due to high demand on RAM/CPU), you come to appreciate the smaller tile sizes. For me, this trend was also supported by my increasing interest in creating fine details - a process that can be quite daunting on a large tile.

Therefore, I have come to use large tiles exclusively for rural areas, parts of the region with few built-up areas, and soft transitions. No pictures, I'm afraid, because the last time I've actually played the game is too long ago, and I didn't go for anything big on a big tile anyway.

I agree that big tiles can be overwhelming, too - especially if you have the entire tile at your disposal for building, and if you build regular stuff on it (which is quite small). It's much less overwhelming, however...

• if much of the big tile is not really available for building because of mountains, bodies of water, canyons and other terrain features,
• if you plan on building large structures such as airports, farm fields, or RRW interchanges in realistic scale, or
• if you intend to leave large areas untouched or only slightly enhanced using MMPs like fences, rocks etc. to create a rural setting.

The absolute nightmare is a perfectly flat, empty big tile on which you're going to build a city. I think you just need something to define a city - even neighbouring suburbs can help a lot in such a scenario because you'll have connections that partly define how you'll have to route your main transit networks. Still, there's hardly anything that would make one particular spot more suitable for a park or whatever than another one. The more predefined features there are, the more spots practically suggest themselves for building certain structures.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Now it depends on what you put on your big tile.  I generally don't play on anything else and my approach is always the same.  Pick a good spot and start with a village, and let it grow.  Sometimes I make more than one village on the same tile and let them grow into each other.  A large tile is an opportunity for making green space between clusters of urban activity.  For example, if you have lots of coast line, there is no reason not to start several fishing villages to get things off the ground, and perhaps a few inland farms.  Remember, farms can be absorbed as needed by the urban sprawl if you so choose.

A lot of this depends on what's in your plugins, because fishing villages are not in the basic tile set, but the PEGasus stuff has plenty.

[Harry's Place 918]

And there are also some cool fishing villages on Hide Inoki website

[MintberryCrunch 83]

Yeah maybe I took the wrong approach with my big-tile city. I feel like only 1/4 of the tile is occupied right now and the population is already 180,000 (it's also almost all in the center of the tile). Maybe I'll just make the surrounding area more low density. This is not a completely flat tile, but it's almost all land, and while some of it is hilly, you could easily build almost anywhere on it. 

Here's the traffic map of my city (I created some freeways ahead of time):

The city's doing well so far...no abandonment, high mayor rating...but I can't even imagine filling in the rest of the tile at this point.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

I was going to pull an image or two from my New York region for you to see, but they've become uncontrollable for some reason (very large populations per tile) and they just scroll down to the right uncontrollably.  Probably a bug in Linux/wine that I'll have to try to get a fix for or fix myself.  So, looking through my canned images. I found an image of Appleby Station from one of my now-defunct regions that shows my approach.

Note that there are several clusters of urban development including seaports on both coastal areas and a recreation area or two on the lake.  On the south east corner is an intrusion from the next tile but it continues to a small town to the north.  If you look closely, you'll find these are all connected by at the very least a street, but probably a road or even a Maxis highway (I don't use RHW).

This is certainly one working approach to big tiles which, after all, are only 4 Km. squares.  Tiny compared to big cities on this continent.

[MintberryCrunch 83]

^Very nice. See that's what I think is probably a more ideal big tile. A big percentage of it is water, and then you have smaller clusters of civilization, rather than trying to completely fill up a mostly-land tile. 

I don't use RHW either, so that's nice to see

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

fixed my Linux problem.  Here is an image of the city of Lomokome which better illustrates the use of green space with urban mix.Link.

I hope you can see better how I run these city tiles.  If I remember right, this one grew from the rail link (EL Rail) at the southwest corner.  However, this is a very busy region and there are neighbour connections in all the cardinal directions and towns tend to grow on them, and especially at the junctions.

Several things happened to fix the problem I was having:

1. I got a utility update to wine
2. NAM34 (yes, 34.  Merry Christmas).

[MintberryCrunch 83]

^Oh yeah, I like that. Very cool to see all the green space. I've kinda been filling in every space in my big-tile city, so I could definitely stand to leave some space empty. 

[rsc204 21,808]

I must say I've taken to the large tile approach myself.

Here is probably my most polished example of a large city, at around 380k sims. It is the main city in a region of smaller tiles.

As for how this city came to life, smaller towns were already in the vicinity when I started. I also had a rough plan of how the region would look (developed/undeveloped areas). What zoning would congregate where and the main transport routes. With this in mind, the highway, rail and monorail (HSR) connections at the top of the above picture, existed before I built anything here. My first work was to decide where the neighbour connections for these networks would exit the tile.

For the city itself, the shape grew from a couple of factors. Firstly I wanted a highway ring-road to enclose the city (Blue). Inside of this are a further two inner ring-roads (Green). An outer OWR system and an inner system using Ave-6/TLA-7. This provided an obvious location for the city-centre, other developments were more ad-hoc as things developed. The rail (Red) and HSR (Purple) connections were then finalised to fit the main arterial road network. The routes took into account where stations would be needed, with the goal of a central hub where commuters could switch between the two. As the rail network was built up, areas of the city tended to be built around them.

At this point I started to get an idea of how the city might look and kept building each area until I was happy with it. You don't need to fill every tile with something, I've probably gone overboard with the trees here for example. I still need to finish the beach area and some detailing work, but I consider this mostly finished.

Game performance can be an issue. I eliminated that when I bought a new computer 2 years ago, with a top-end processor and a ton of RAM. Only to bring it back by installing HD textures everywhere and filling large areas with HD flora . Sometimes at around 40-60k, I can get slowdown starting in larger regions. However, if I leave the flora until last, often it's nearer 100-130k sims before this is noticeable. The slow down can be annoying, but everything is stable with 4-5GB plugins and a total NAM install. It doesn't really bother me too much though, because I can do everything I need. Sometimes I just need to let the computer catch up with me.

[citycowboy 183]

big tiles are the way to go. I think the big tiles aren't big enough. they're only like 2 1/2 miles square or something. I think once you download everything you can (about 10k pieces) and put in your infrastructure you'll understand what I'm talking about. In order to place a tall building, you need enough sims near it to support it, and I think its a hassle to place your supporting midtown in a separate tile because of how the traffic works. However it is your game and you can do whatever you want, so have fun. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

@citycowboy

If you could run a larger tile in SC4, IMHO the lag would bore you to tears.  I have one city right now with over a million Sims and all the supporting stuff and the response time to just switching from regular query to route query is several seconds.  I zoned a new small commercial building in a bit of spare space today, and had time to wash my dishes before it finished.  It is a rather nice city in my New York region and is about 1/5 water as a couple of rivers run though it.  Unfortunately, as far as play is concerned, I am afraid it has become eye candy.

[MintberryCrunch 83]

2 hours ago, citycowboy said:

big tiles are the way to go. I think the big tiles aren't big enough. they're only like 2 1/2 miles square or something. I think once you download everything you can (about 10k pieces) and put in your infrastructure you'll understand what I'm talking about. In order to place a tall building, you need enough sims near it to support it, and I think its a hassle to place your supporting midtown in a separate tile because of how the traffic works. However it is your game and you can do whatever you want, so have fun. 

It's crazy to think that some people think the Big Tiles aren't big enough and yet Sim City 2013 thought it would be a good idea to make the maximum size even smaller than the medium tile. LOGIC

I still seem to prefer my good-old medium tiles (especially if several of them joined together form one big "metropolis") but I'm getting more into big tiles now and my next region will probably have more of them (there are only 2 in my current region and only one of them is anywhere near developed). 

[MintberryCrunch 83]

For those of you who do create big tile cities, what's the largest population you've had on one before the game really started to slow down?

I just started zoning the 8th Ward of Westeropolis, reached 200,000, and it's still working fine but I'm worried much more and it's gonna really lag. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

On my machine, even with the JIT compiler for Windoze calls, I don't notice much slowdown until I have around 750K Sims.  I am running an Athlon II X2 restricted to single core, with an AMD RS780 graphics chip set using DirectX, but both software and OpenGL work as well.  From a hardware standpoint, this chipset is getting a little long in the tooth.

I have one tile with over 1,000,000 Sims, and it lags something fierce but remains playable.

I don't know whether you have any tools to measure what is happening on your machine while it is running a specific program, but I am able to run the Linux System Monitor in another workspace (I have four) in the second core, and watch the program run from various points of view.  (Workspaces are like separate users, but all attached to the same ID.  Each acts as if it were the only one on the machine but they are able to look across the boundaries.  There is no limit to them, but I think four is a great plenty.)

I suggest you keep growing your city until it becomes unplayable.  The CPU vs. Number of Sims curve is a hyperbola.

Don't be afraid to bump your head on this.  It can't hurt the machine, and it is, after all, only a game.

[citycowboy 183]

I don't think it has much to do with the number of Sims, but when a large tile is about 1/4 filled, and I'm running on 2G. I've never had slowdown on a small tile. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

11 hours ago, citycowboy said:

I don't think it has much to do with the number of Sims, but when a large tile is about 1/4 filled, and I'm running on 2G. I've never had slowdown on a small tile. 

Please describe more fully the meaning of "running on 2G".  How did you measure this?

BTW the number of Sims is an easy measure for estimating the number of objects, including trees and other flora that are managed by the simulation.  This overall class is called the universe of discourse.

[citycowboy 183]

2 gigs of RAM

[cogeo 960]

Maybe the region is too big. A map larger then some 6x7 (large) city tile can cause the cities to take a lot of time to load/save/exit. So if your region has more than ca 50 city tiles, then this is where the problem may actually be. The last SC4M version allows you to create a smaller region, using only a part of your map, as well as resize and rearrange city tiles..

New(er) NAM versions also are also a big burden, because the "controller" has grown out of control in size, and this causes the menus to work sluggishly (and I'm not sure if it's just the menus). And all this only to make the RHW "draggable". Draggable networks were once considered "new and revolutionary technology" with the puzzle pieces branded somehow "oldish", "archaic" or even "obsolete". So I decided to NOT use RHW and NWM, and built a special controller for this (basically removed everything RHW- oe NWM-related). This was enough to reduce the size of the controller by more than 90%. I'm rather going to do the same for draggable Tram in/on road/street (the puzzle piece version of these networks is fine to me), unless the draggable version supports features than the puzzle-piece version does not. The much smaller controller makes the system run a lot faster.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

This has piqued my curiosity, so I am currently loading the game with my largest city with a population of over 1,000,000 Sims and running the system monitor in the background (on the other CPU core)  Here are the results:

Virtual Memory 12.1 MB (this is reserved swap space)
Resident Memory 1.3 MB (Actual memory occupied out of my 3.5GB available)
Shared Memory 1.1 MB (Tables, etc marked r/w.  The rest is read only)

As you can see, this is not a very big program, as it should not be since it was written in the days before software bloat.  This includes the full NAM controller since I have a problem compiling the custom one.

The slow operation of menu selections, especially for NAM, is due to the double interpretation of the LUA strings.  The NAM team have said this is unavoidable, and will get worse when new features are added, particularly to RHW.  The only cure for this would be to code the NAM in C++ and attach it to the program as a DLL.  There is no facility to do that.

2GB of RAM is a great plenty in which to run this program, even if the O/S takes half of it.
 

[rsc204 21,808]

18 hours ago, cogeo said:

New(er) NAM versions also are also a big burden, because the "controller" has grown out of control in size, and this causes the menus to work sluggishly (and I'm not sure if it's just the menus).

Well it depends on the PC and other factors too. I don't really feel your pain, despite running a full controller and the full NAM package.

However, the puzzle vs draggable debate could go on forever. Ultimately, users wanted less items in menus, as the #1 complaint the NAM gets, given the ability to change this, change it we did.

I fear users who wouldn't take the time to familiarise themselves with the menus, will be even more lost with the ever-increasing in complexity patterns. Most likely the same people who asked for less items in the menu, would just not realise these features exist.

On the flipside, finally we can have custom sidewalks without relying on mods (always few and far between). Not to mention the fluidity of using draggable networks. Case in point, the new GLR additions. Not only can you now make RHW intersections with GLR networks (very cool), but upgrading large stretches of Street, Road or Ave to TiS, TiR or TiA can now be done much quicker. With the custom compiler, everyone can use as little or as much as they choose. So no one is forced into having a large controller, unless you want all the trimmings that is.

[citycowboy 183]

I'm extremely excited about the new NAM because I can finally make the bridges I need and combine two one ways into a four lane one way. Thanks NAM team.

[Tropod 144]

On 9/1/2016 at 11:44 AM, citycowboy said:

I don't think it has much to do with the number of Sims, but when a large tile is about 1/4 filled, and I'm running on 2G. I've never had slowdown on a small tile. 

size of the lots is a significant factor.

case in point:

I have a ~200K city in which the majority of RES zones is only 1x1. So when I go to do anything network/route/etc related, well lets just say game doesn't like it compared to a city of same size that's not built like this.

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

^  Not surprising.  By having large numbers of 1 x 1 lots, you've increased your density and the resulting number of objects in the universe of discourse.  I use a great many 2 x 1 lots for low density both R and C.  I suspect our object is similar:  Keep unwanted large buildings formed by lot consolidation out, and to increase local density.

What really sends you to the knee of the hyperbola for response time is the number of objects in the simulation from trees to Sims.

[citycowboy 183]

One great trick I've learned recently is to place alleys using the high tech grey blank square. It doesn't have a monthly service fee, you can place MMPs on it, and it helps space your city out. My blocks are typically 9x7 now, sometimes longer, and the space behind the buildings is filled in with asphalt. I think this gives the city a much more realistic look, its much more customizable with MMPs, and helps to reduce the overall number of "things" going on at once. They're also slope friendly, which means you can terrace your streets, keep all the street front pieces level, and 'hide' the hill using the alleyway. I've also learned to put more thought into placing 'forest preserves' and other wooded areas around, not only because of the amount of RAM space used for the trees, but also because of their knack for catching on fire without access road. Adding a large amount of parking lots helps too with RAM usage, and I think gives the city an overall more realistic appearance. 

[MintberryCrunch 83]

Well, Westeropolis has reached 312,000 with about 75% of the tile filled in and it's started to become stuttery and glitchy at this point. I think I've seen what my computer can handle. As fun as it was making a city this big, I've realized that I much prefer medium tiles and will probably continue to deal mainly in them from here on out. Oh well, at least it allowed me to use the International Airport, which I had heretofore never used in a city of mine

[monkeywater 910]

playability is also a function of pathfinding.  A large tile that is a giant grid will be worse for your system than one where neighborhoods feed into distinct traffic arteries

[kschmidt 6,164]

Up to now I autimaticly used big city tile´s conscidering the space they offer ! Realistic large airport require a big map, combining this with a subsequint city. Medium tile I´d like to use performance wise and more usefull for traffic coridors. Regional aiirport may just fit into a medium tile, not supporting those larger jets. What are the requirements for a city having a large airport ? How much at least a quarter of a medium tile being convered with urban development ?  A city spread over three or four medium tiles !

[Lucario Boricua 7,028]

I use big city districts most of the time, but the trick is to not fill it up with development unless it's strictly necessary or intended. I prefer them to fit more of the surrounding landscape and to provide transitions between different land uses.  I also always adjust my regions' config.bmp to optimize certain elements:

• Optimum city locations relative to major natural features (bays, rivers, lakes, valleys, flat-topped hills)
• Maximize bridge-building opportunities
• Putting notable natural features (ex. major mountains, peninsulas, lakes, waterfalls) at the center of the stage
• Facilitate the placement of large infrastructure elements (ex. reservoirs, seaports, industrial parks)

I do also use medium city districts to fill in the gaps, usually hosting villages or transitions areas between major elements located in large city districts. And finally, don't be afraid of rugged terrain! In my personal case, I'm used to living close to both mountains and coastlines, and to me it feels overwhelming to make a flat expanse of terrain look nice compared to developing my cities and terrain when having to work around the major natural features.

Here are some examples from my current region, the Kingdom of Rota:

 

City of Aldemar: notice how I have the city center, gradually transitioning through suburbs, city outskirt industrial parks, farms and ultimately natural areas

 

Lake Ruby: notice how I could fit a sizable dam and reservoir entirely within the city district

 

Town of Silurum and villages of Osca and Elusa: notice how the small communities had to sneak in along the valleys, with the dramatic backdrop of the head of Mew Mountain.

[isaacmaneirobr 0]

Hi @MintberryCrunch, can you tell me what map you're using, or the download? Seems pretty big, I want that.