Dependency on dependencies

[Mr Saturn64 742]

With my newly fixed computer, I went to browse for buildings on the STEX.  However, many building I saw during this browsing period many buildings that are not in my Sim City 4 game, because there were a lot of dependencies.  I'm fine with dependencies in their proper use, but the issue I've observed is that - there are simply too many of them.  I'm seeing files that have 8-10 dependencies  That just seems like a little much.  There are a few that are just too dependent on dependencies.  It may be just me, but I think there are just too many.

[Terring 6,476]

You have opened old cases my friend. There was a debate about dependencies and if we really need them. I think that dependencies are great for as long as we use them wisely. My Barsoom Project (not the released version but the under development one) needs about 30 necessary dependencies for hundreds of lots, and most of them are so common that almost everybody has them. On the other hand, there are lots that require tons of unnecessary dependencies, like 30 again but for a single lot. Even worse, there are cases in which you need to download a dependency to activate an another one! Here is an example. There is a 1x1 lot in SC4D that requires a dependency pack for a single unnecessary prop. The dependency pack however requires an another one! I mean, come on, you gotta being kidding me.

 

Dependencies. Sometimes less is more. Use them wisely or don't use them at all!

[NielsC007 499]

Yup, downloading all the CAM files took me 6 hours.

TONS of dependencies, that have dependencies.

 

Luckily I have a 2nd Monitor so I could watch some of Haljackey's building a City from Scratch videos.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Even worse, there are cases in which you need to download a dependency to activate an another one! Here is an example. There is a 1x1 lot in SC4D that requires a dependency pack for a single unnecessary prop. The dependency pack however requires an another one! I mean, come on, you gotta being kidding me.

Ah, the dreadful Nested Dependencies. For content creators, they should be avoided at all costs.

Dependencies are useful and most experienced content creators rely on a few very common ones. It may seem much at the start, but the more dependencies you have, the less additional dependencies you need to download the next time. I mean, who doesn't have C.P. Mega Props 1 or SimGoober Mega Props 1?

[Metalpuritan 161]

I have 1.3 gigabytes of dependencies for all the custom content in my plugins folder... No big deal for me.  Additionally, I have found that what affects my load times to most is the Network Addon Mod.  I have come to accept dependencies as they are, a necessary evil if you will.  Good thing is, now that have virtually all of the dependencies in existence I can practically download what I want when I want and not have to worry about it.  I think the two biggest draw backs about dependencies is that it takes a very long time to get to know them all and it takes even longer to organize them in such a way as to not have any duplicates, it took me two years to grow a "perfect" 4 gigabyte plugins folder, now that it is complete it is good, but it was a long road to get here. 

 

"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing well. If it is worth having, it is worth waiting for. If it is worth attaining, it is worth fighting for. If it is worth experiencing, it is worth putting aside time for." - Jack London

[Mr Saturn64 742]

But I hate when there's a link to a dependency but it actually gives you a "file doesn't exist" notice...

[catty-cb 4,413]

But I hate when there's a link to a dependency but it actually gives you a "file doesn't exist" notice...

 

That's one of the main reasons I set up the catalogue

 

http://www.citybuilders.co.nz/index.php/cb-catalogue

 

the aim is to record all the plugins and their locations ... got a long way to go, but have indexed over a thousand so far from various sites, am also trying to record all the plugins that got merged into mega packs to make it easier to find things ... any member of the site can also add plugin links if they want to the catalogue.

 

-catty

[fefenc 77]

Yup, downloading all the CAM files took me 6 hours.

TONS of dependencies, that have dependencies.

 

Luckily I have a 2nd Monitor so I could watch some of Haljackey's building a City from Scratch videos.

[infamousjbe 593]

At the beginning, it can certainly be a daunting task and rather frustrating, but as mentioned, the longer you play the more deps you'll already have and it'll cease to be such a pain in the ass.

 

As far as the nested dependencies for dependencies can be an additional PITA. My biggest gripe with this is having the nested dep taking up space in my menus when I'll probably never use it. But whence I've learned how to remove items from the menu and not actually the game, it wasn't so much of a deal breaker. 

 

Word of advice, DO NOT try and install it all at once. Bite of little chunks here and there and you'll keep your sanity. Plus remember to test new plugins to make sure they play well with the rest of your plugins. Nothing worse than going on a dl binge just to find that you're missing something, or they don't play nice together. That'll be an even bigger pain than the dependencies themselves.

[Cyclone Boom 17,032]

I think the last post of has quite a good summary:
 

1) Dependencies exist and personal opinions and preferences about them will not make them go away. Get used to it.
2) Use of dependencies is a matter of personal preference and not a valid reason to bad mouth a person who uses them.
3) What you download from a free site is your responsibility.
4) If you choose to not download anything that has dependent files, understand that there is a very large amount of high quality content that uses dependencies that you are missing out on, but again, that is your preference.
5) There really is no debate about dependencies. What you do with them is entirely up to you.

Looking to the positives, dependencies add more variety to the game. Without custom packs, we'd be stuck with the Maxis bldgprop files. To reduce dependencies while maintaining the variety, I'd always recommend the use of prop families. As the name goes, prop families can contain a number of different props, which the game randomly selects when a lot is plopped. This means the same lot can have numerous different variations in a city.

 

Two creators that make excellent use of this technique are Paeng and SimCoug.

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

1) The CAM itself is simple and quick. Downloading the smorgasbord of CAM-patible buildings and all of their dependencies is what takes a great deal of patience, attention and discipline.

 

2) Beware of dependency redundancy. Many early texture and prop mods were gathered into packs that were later super-collected into "mega" packs (usually along creator lines). The names can be very similar (a trap for the newbie, which I was until I fought my out of a few).

 

3) For any particular lot, the most likely (and largest) dependency will be the model of the building. You can't get the awesome view without the big picture. The props and textures are likely to map back to the same mega pack needed for all buildings drawn by that creator.

 

4) There are crossovers (lot designers who use others' textures and props). They tend to respect each pthers' creations, so there tends to be a dependency requirement wherever one designer's work uses another designers' work.

[Shark7 118]

 

Even worse, there are cases in which you need to download a dependency to activate an another one! Here is an example. There is a 1x1 lot in SC4D that requires a dependency pack for a single unnecessary prop. The dependency pack however requires an another one! I mean, come on, you gotta being kidding me.

Ah, the dreadful Nested Dependencies. For content creators, they should be avoided at all costs.

Dependencies are useful and most experienced content creators rely on a few very common ones. It may seem much at the start, but the more dependencies you have, the less additional dependencies you need to download the next time. I mean, who doesn't have C.P. Mega Props 1 or SimGoober Mega Props 1?

 

 

I just recently finished rebuilding my plugins folder from scratch.  There are a lot of dependencies, but instead of trying to locate them by lot, I actually just downloaded ALL of common dependencies and installed them first into a folder named...yep, dependencies.  Didn't bother installing a single lot until I had all the dependencies I'd downloaded installed.  Now I do occasionally run into a lot that has a dependency or two I don't have yet, but it is so much easier to track down one or two packs than 30.

 

I figured it was easier to just get them all (the mega packs at least) and install them knowing I'd more than likely need them down the road any how.  I do not regret that decision.

 

Just to give you an idea of just how many dependencies are out there, my dependencies folder is currently 2.38 GB after packing the files with SC4DatPacker.

[catty-cb 4,413]

... Just to give you an idea of just how many dependencies are out there, my dependencies folder is currently 2.38 GB after packing the files with SC4DatPacker.

 

I've split mine up into separate folders to make it easier to datpack, its less that yours but not by much ... only 1.96 GB

[Mr Saturn64 742]

My issue is that I download them all and then the mod/BAT isn't in the game.  This is a bigger issue on SC4 Devotion than here, but I still think it's a big problem, and I have no idea how to fix it.

[Indiana Joe 1,752]

Ah, the even more dreadful ghost dependencies!  Undocumented, unseen, but you know they're there!  Watching you...

 

The fact of the matter is that doing something like rebuilding your whole plugins folder is going to suck.  It's much easier if you've kept up with recent uploads, and only have to download a few things a day at most.  You have to be careful and meticulous; always triple-check for the dep's:

• Description
• Readme
• Comments and Support Thread (if they exist)

 

If all the required dependencies aren't listed in the first two spots, you can usually find out pretty quickly by reading the comments.  (You see a bunch of "##Som pieceS R missin!!@2zq!" or "I get brown boxes plz help thx")

 

And the support thread is always a good reference for everything.  Unfortunately it doesn't usually exist.  Hunting for dependencies is really a skill.  Once you are experienced, and you know that "BSC BAT props" are now merged into various "BSC MEGA props" files, it's not that complicated.  You also have to learn to master the Google search.

 

 

As for the age-old, now forbidden dependency debate itself: you have to keep in mind the techniques involved in lot creation.  Especially if you're using the lot editor, there's no real way to tell what packs you're plucking things out of.  You might know what prop families fit your building very well, but every one of them might come from a different pack.

 

And of course you can't include duplicate files in your upload.  Not only is is copyright infringement, but duplicate files are dead weight on your computer and can cause serious bugs.

 

I remember the time when some guy uploaded some huge toll booths, and included a dozen prop packs with each file.  They were like a hundred megabytes.  xD

[catty-cb 4,413]

 

Hunting for dependencies is really a skill.  Once you are experienced, and you know that "BSC BAT props" are now merged into various "BSC MEGA props" files, it's not that complicated.  You also have to learn to master the Google search

 

or you just go and look it up in the plugins catalogue

 

http://www.citybuilders.co.nz/index.php/cb-catalogue

[Shark7 118]

 

... Just to give you an idea of just how many dependencies are out there, my dependencies folder is currently 2.38 GB after packing the files with SC4DatPacker.

 

I've split mine up into separate folders to make it easier to datpack, its less that yours but not by much ... only 1.96 GB

 

I have 3 folders currently for dependencies in my 'PrePack' plugins folder.  I then condense it down to 1 folder for my play plugins folder.  If I stuck it all in one folder to start with, the datpacker errors out due to not enough storage.

 

The dependencies make up 1/3 of my packed plugin folder...including the stuff like NAM that I don't pack up.  Still dependencies are better than having each bat having everything it needs...using dependencies cut way down on the data needed for each lot

[jeffryfisher 2,176]

But I hate when there's a link to a dependency but it actually gives you a "file doesn't exist" notice...

Here at Simtropolis, that's often a red herring. At some time in the past, somebody changed the way that STEX pages needed to be coded as URLs. The result was that thousands of links both here and at SC4 Devotion were unnecessarily broken. I have reported the problem to TPTB, and they either can't fix it or don't care.

 

However, if you look at such a broken link's URL, you should see within it a valid file number. If you can narrow a STEX search sufficiently and then walk through the results, you'll find a URL containing the same file number (+title text). Sadly, there's no way to get to a file based on a file-number search alone. Don't ask me why STEX intelligence was was lobotomized; it may have been a software "upgrade" beyond the control of local sys admins.

[catty-cb 4,413]

 

...Sadly, there's no way to get to a file based on a file-number search alone. Don't ask me why STEX intelligence was was lobotomized; it may have been a software "upgrade" beyond the control of local sys admins.

 

 

Open up a new tab or window and copy the first part of the STEX link into the URL field like so

 

https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/

 

 

...you should see within it a valid file number

 

take that valid file number and add it to the end of the URL ... for example 29039 and add - on the end, so it looks like this

 

https://community.simtropolis.com/files/file/29039-

 

it should then bring up the correct file, this will only work if it hasn't been deleted, clicking on the "Is this file broken?"  in a previous STEX version used to delete the plugin, not sure if it still does, but there are now a lot of missing plugins on the plus side if you have the STEX DVDs you might still have the plugin.

 

Every plugin I have added to the CB Catalogue I have checked at the time the link was active, but I ran the catalogue thru a link verification program every so often, the last time was at the beginning of the week and it found one of the STEX links no longer existed ... it was farm tractors, but its now gone ... not sure why it could have been deleted by its creator or the STEX moderators or ...?

 

-catty

[noahclem 262]

Keeping track of dependencies isn't the nicest thing in the world--nobody likes to do it--but I think the problem is very often exaggerated. For one thing, almost all the stuff released on the STEX or the LEX in relatively recent times uses either no dependencies or a handful of ones just about everybody has: your BSC textures, CP props, Porkie props, etc. The vast majority of author's are pretty responsible about not adding unnecessary ones, in part because they can expect to be complained at for it. Some authors who are serious lotters use a number of them to take advantage of the props they like the most--usually in pretty specialized files like parks, walls, and the like--which I think is great. And weird as it sounds, some dependencies are actually pretty exciting, like the VIP flora and props. I'd call dependencies just plain necessary, rather than a necessary evil, at least if you want realistically-scaled parking spaces or nice-looking trees.

 

Anecdote: I just built a plugins folder--took forever and still needs modding and tweaking--but I just copied over the props and textures from my last plugins folder and have yet to run into a missing dependency. So for me at least after dealing with the dependency hassle once it seems I'll not have to again. If only finding properly modded and lotted, high quality buildings of a variety of wealth and zone types to match a specific style were so easy

[Fantozzi 4,068]

I changed my mind about dependencies. Instead of getting rid of them I try to make better use of them.

 

Please let me explain this.

 

When I started playing sc4 6 or 7 years ago I downloaded every thing I could find and had a big dependency mess. Because I dowloaded always as told and didn't regard that some of the older dependencies were drawn together to so called „mega packs“. It took a while to learn about the history of dependencies and than to set them up right.

 

Was a big investigation. And I began to see dependencies as a pain in the neck.

 

During the years it occured that I deleted lot and model files but as I couldn't remember if I needed the dependencies for some other lots I left them always in my plugin folder.

 

Finally almost half of my plugin folder was filled with dependencies. So I thought I browse through them to see by visual inspection if I really need them all.

 

First thing I discovered that the big part of every „mega pack“ I had never seen in the game. Overall hundreds of oak and cypress trees.

 

This made me upset. Half a Gig of garbage data and you must keep it because of a MB of needed props.

 

But meanwhile I was browsing through all those dependencies I began to see possibilites - as many idears for lotting as I saw treeprops. It wasn't really „garbage“ what I saw (even if there are some garbage props). There was a countless amount of precious and lovely done things in these datfiles – funny, amazing, stunning. And many of them for sure had never appeared in my game.

 

Now as I got a little bit deeper in it I think they only need more attention. One lot with 10 dependencies thats a bad balance. But the same 10 dependencies used on other 100 lots again changes their economy. So their worth is driven by the use you make of them. Their worth lies not in them self.

 

They are the sleeping beauties of the game. You have to wake them up.

 

And that's why this discussion is useless and infinite at the same time - it is circular: Everything in the world is useless if you don't put it in a use - but if you don't put it in a use you obviuosly will find it useless. This discussion is like a box full of nails and a man standing in front with a screwdriver in his hand. Just my opinion.

[T Wrecks 10,210]

I have 1.3 gigabytes of dependencies for all the custom content in my plugins folder... 

Whoa... that seems like a lot. May I ask how big your entire plugins folder is?

 

I try to keep my plugins limited to a manageable amount, i.e. about 1 GB. However, I noticed it's increasingly difficult because dependencies alone (and I'm picky!) easily make up around a third of my plugins...