How to make Bridges High enough for Ferries

[Cougar2004 128]

How can bridges be made high enough for ferries to cross under? 

 

I've searched a bit on the forums but haven't found the answer yet. I have the latest (NAM 31.1), and no matter where I build,even when I terraform (raise the land up a bit on each end), the popup box that lets me choose the bridge always tells me that the the highest option is just barely too low for ferries to pass.  

 

I have a fair amount of water in this city, and therefore quite a few ferries and a seaport. A river splits the the city diagonally into two, so a bridge is needed.

 

I'm sure someone has struggled with this problem before. Any ideas how to solve it? Thanks!

[SimMavGER 8]

I created my region just above sealevel - looks kinda nicer then steep cliffs all around, but I too have to built artificial hills as high as Deluxe Police Station - I think you have to raise at least 24m to get a high enough bridge.

 

Just to be sure: you see the little slider in the bridge popup to adjust the height of the bridge? Maybe I didnt get that you did from what you wrote.

[Magneto 316]

Iirc the bridge minimal height for ferries has to be 30 meters above sea level.

 

To make sure you have at least 30 m on your bridge edges, use the TerrainQuery command and query the tiles. The second value should be the tile's height.

[The Pennsylvania Turnpike 252]

make sure you don't use the Bridge height mod

[Cougar2004 128]

I created my region just above sealevel - looks kinda nicer then steep cliffs all around, but I too have to built artificial hills as high as Deluxe Police Station - I think you have to raise at least 24m to get a high enough bridge.

 

Just to be sure: you see the little slider in the bridge popup to adjust the height of the bridge? Maybe I didnt get that you did from what you wrote.

 

Yes, I was using the slider, which kept changing color to say "can't go any higher" and then sliding a very tiny bit further to the right said "Ferries allowed" or something like that.  I guess raising the land at both ends wasnt up to 24m.  I wish the tool helped us raise the land to accommodate the bridge we want there.  

 

I also noticed that i had to go pretty far inland (wasted space) in order to get the bridge at all! I guess that also had to do with height, or maybe type of bridge.  Thanks for responding!

 

 

Iirc the bridge minimal height for ferries has to be 30 meters above sea level.

 

To make sure you have at least 30 m on your bridge edges, use the TerrainQuery command and query the tiles. The second value should be the tile's height.

 

Oh so its 30m! Good to know. Thanks.  Also thank you for the TerrainQuery reminder... I turned it on and saw the x y z numbers, however im still new to reading it.  It has x= y= z= then cell x= and cell z= (for a total of 5 values). Which should say 30?  The first 3 apparently are in the 0-2048 range, and the 2 cell values are in the 0 to 127 range (definitely top left corner being 0,0 to bottom right of map being 127,127).  The y = ranges from about 265 on land to about 230 in the middle of the river.  So I guess thats the value, but im not sure what units it is using, so im not sure what value is = 30m.  Ay thoughts?

 

make sure you don't use the Bridge height mod

 

I was just thinking of trying that. Good thing I saw your message.  I suppose it isnt compatible with the NAM or something.  Thanks.

[SimMavGER 8]

Doesnt the NAM come with a bridge mod?

[Magneto 316]

 The y = ranges from about 265 on land to about 230 in the middle of the river.  So I guess thats the value, but im not sure what units it is using, so im not sure what value is = 30m.  Ay thoughts?

 

 

Indeed that's the y value, reading the height in meters. Usually, sea level is at 250 m. So aim for min. 280 m for the bridges if you want the ferries to pass.

 

Anyway the BHM isn't the cause, it's just about height.

[Cougar2004 128]

 

 The y = ranges from about 265 on land to about 230 in the middle of the river.  So I guess thats the value, but im not sure what units it is using, so im not sure what value is = 30m.  Ay thoughts?

 

 

Indeed that's the y value, reading the height in meters. Usually, sea level is at 250 m. So aim for min. 280 m for the bridges if you want the ferries to pass.

 

Anyway the BHM isn't the cause, it's just about height.

 

 

Thank you. I tried to raise the land up to 280 and then pull some bridges.  Each attempt they say Ferries are OK, but when i play the game for a bit, its clear that ferries only go to docks within their own side of the bridge.  So its cutting them off.  The NAM is not working properly I guess.  Hopefully they can fix that but.   I'll try some higher values well above what it says is ok for ferries, and hopefully get one to work soon. 

 

EDIT:  Ok im back after trial and error. Im up to 284, 290, and ferries still fail to go under the bridge.  There has got to be a level at which they actually work.  I have 10 ferry terminals and a ton of traffic was using them until the bridge went up.  Nothing else changed.

[Prophet42 1,503]

Use the route query to query the ferry dock.  See where the route lines go.  If the route lines go under the bridge and continue on, then the ferry route is okay.  The ferry boats seem to 'disappear' if they encounter too much terrain along the route.  However, this seems to be only a graphical glitch.  I believe the ferry boat trip is still completed, even if the ferry boat graphic disappears.

[Cougar2004 128]

Use the route query to query the ferry dock.  See where the route lines go.  If the route lines go under the bridge and continue on, then the ferry route is okay.  The ferry boats seem to 'disappear' if they encounter too much terrain along the route.  However, this seems to be only a graphical glitch.  I believe the ferry boat trip is still completed, even if the ferry boat graphic disappears.

 

I have been using the Route Query tool all along.  No paths go under the bridge (6th attempts now, each one higher than the last), whereas half a dozen paths used to go right through there before the bridge.  Also after I demolished the bridge, the paths eventually came back through the water there again.  Something might be wrong with the bridge/NAM behavior since it always now says Ferries are OK, but they dont work.  I am up to 295m and trying to get one over 300m as a test.

 

EDIT:  This is a Rail Bridge in case anyone is wondering.  Not a road.

[infamousjbe 593]

I know I'm talking out of my ass here, but it almost sounds like the bridge stances are clogging the route, if that's even possible. Like the width of the river(?) is reduced by the bridge's "legs"...   

 

If you can post a pic, it usually helps the pros better diagnose the problem better.

 

FYI: I use the Bridge Height Mod across a small span of water and still get an OK for ferries...but with a road bridge. Haven't tried creating a rail bridge in my city yet.

[Wodong 1]

That's a strange problem, Couger2004.  The only thing I can offer is that I use NAM, the bridge height mod, and a virtual crapton of other mods, but I still manage to get good use of ferries (well completed trips according to the routing tool anyway) when I build them using minimal heights (about 30-50m above "sea level".  How wide is your river?  Did you install anything in your plugins folder recently?  Do you have some kind of custom bridge for rail installed?

 

One last thought, is the traffic that was formerly using the ferries now using the new bridge instead?  NAM has a traffic simulator that does a much better job of pathfinding than the standard Maxi pathfinding, and generally goes by what is the shortest commute time rather than distance.  Otherwise I got nothin'.

[Cougar2004 128]

I know I'm talking out of my ass here, but it almost sounds like the bridge stances are clogging the route, if that's even possible. Like the width of the river(?) is reduced by the bridge's "legs"...   

 

If you can post a pic, it usually helps the pros better diagnose the problem better.

 

FYI: I use the Bridge Height Mod across a small span of water and still get an OK for ferries...but with a road bridge. Haven't tried creating a rail bridge in my city yet.

 

I took an image.  I don't have a website to upload it to, what is the best way to post it here?

 

 

That's a strange problem, Couger2004.  The only thing I can offer is that I use NAM, the bridge height mod, and a virtual crapton of other mods, but I still manage to get good use of ferries (well completed trips according to the routing tool anyway) when I build them using minimal heights (about 30-50m above "sea level".  How wide is your river?  Did you install anything in your plugins folder recently?  Do you have some kind of custom bridge for rail installed?

 

One last thought, is the traffic that was formerly using the ferries now using the new bridge instead?  NAM has a traffic simulator that does a much better job of pathfinding than the standard Maxi pathfinding, and generally goes by what is the shortest commute time rather than distance.  Otherwise I got nothin'.

 

Are you creating Rail Bridges or Road Bridges?  I have very few plugins, and only the NAM 31.1 in the way of traffic.  The river is wide. Nothing new in the plugins folder recently.  I have no custom bridges, just what came with the NAM.  

 

No, it is unlikely that the bridges got the ferry traffic, because I didnt even place any rail stations when i was first starting this today.  I added some an hour ago, but after adding the last bridge, which also killed ferries, i verified that no traffic was using the rail.  This bridge at the bottom of the picture, is  y=298 height on both sides, whereas the one at the top of the picture is only 288.  The first one is even further up (off the photo) and only 275.  All 3 cut off all ferries that used to go through that water the minute the bridge was placed.  All 3 bridges said they were OK for Ferries.  Something's not right here.

 

Any other thoughts?

[SimMavGER 8]

Click on "More Replay Options" down below - make them small jpg formatted ( use e.g. Irfanview and "save as") pics!

 

 

Well, tough one. To summarize:

No traffic addons but NAM,

no custom bridges aside from the ones coming with NAM,

no visual mods for bridges or bridge footings.

Land is high enough,

river is deep enough,

slider in bridge popup indicates "high enough" for ferries.

 

Did you pull the slider as far as possible to still get a bridge built as a test?

As it is a railroad bridge: Do you use visual mods or anything playing around with the rails?

Any traffic blockers/bus-only-roads of any kind?

How long did you wait (ingame months) for the new routes to establish?

[Cougar2004 128]

Click on "More Replay Options" down below - make them small jpg formatted ( use e.g. Irfanview and "save as") pics!

 

Well, tough one. To summarize:

No traffic addons but NAM,

no custom bridges aside from the ones coming with NAM,

no visual mods for bridges or bridge footings.

Land is high enough,

river is deep enough,

slider in bridge popup indicates "high enough" for ferries.

 

Did you pull the slider as far as possible to still get a bridge built as a test?

As it is a railroad bridge: Do you use visual mods or anything playing around with the rails?

Any traffic blockers/bus-only-roads of any kind?

How long did you wait (ingame months) for the new routes to establish?

 

Perfect Summary.  I do have a water color changing mod installed though, and a taxi stand, the farm doubler, extra cheats dll, the opera house fix, and of course the SpacePort Fix. 

 

I'm attaching pictures as per your instructions now.

 

First, this shows the 2nd (top) and 3rd (bottom) final bridge attempts. 

 

 

Then, the proof that the bridges are failing.  All traffic avoids going under all bridges, but to really hit the case home, look at what what ridiculous path a single sim is forced to take now that the bridges went in, when he originally just hopped a ferry all the way to his destination!

 

He starts by taking a long walk off a short pier, catching a passenger ferry to another ferry dock, walking from there to a taxi, then driving to a train, where he rides to another train station, then back to walking to another taxi stand, which gives him a ride to a 3rd ferry (car version), which floats him still in his taxi to a 4th ferry, from which he drives again to his high tech job at the SpacePort (as you can see in the picture barely late for work as the Shuttle is already taking off!) Can you imagine anything more crazy than doing this in real life? How is he ever going to make it in time to fly the shuttle, if the bridges continue to redirect his commutes like this every day? 

 

Answers for SimMavGER:

1. Yes, I pulled the slider as high as it would go each time before turning RED and not giving me a bridge.

 

2. No, I have absolutely no visual mods. I reinstalled fresh a month ago and only have maxis official downloads after the patches of course, and then the few files listed above. Nothing that changes the look of the rails or roads or land or any visual changes other than the water color. 

 

3. No, I have no traffic mods of any type other than the standard full NAM 31.1 install, so no traffic blockers/bus-only-roads, or anything that affects transit except that 1 taxi stand bat which doesnt limit but just lets people walk to a taxi that takes them directly to work.

 

4. Yes, I watched for 12-24 months after the install of each bridge. I actually installed 7 bridges as tests, but only saved this last 3 which were the highest i could get for each in the end. It appeared that during the first month after installing each bridge, the purple ferry route traces moved from being IN the water  normally to being a cluster of straight lines from the originating ferry docks to the receiving docks like a handful of dry spaghetti or laser lights as the crow flies. Finally after usually just 1 more month, not more than 2, the new paths were in use, and the straight shot impossible temporary ferry to ferry stiff lines were gone. I kept it running to see what would happen. Never any change. 

 

I hope the images help. Anyone have some insights as to why the bridges are blocking ferries even though they are high enough according to the NAM bridge maker?  Thanks.

[SimMavGER 8]

OK, last really wild guess from me and it only really makes sense to check this out, if the rail connection already existed when our astronaut still went by ferry to his job before you built the bridges.

 

If this was not the case, then please destroy any land connection from your southern docks to the north and and every dock but two, one south and one north of the bridges.

 

My presumption: The rail connection is faster then the ship. Driving on the streets will be very slow, so he "jumps" by ferry beyond all streets possible.

[Cougar2004 128]

OK, last really wild guess from me and it only really makes sense to check this out, if the rail connection already existed when our astronaut still went by ferry to his job before you built the bridges.

 

If this was not the case, then please destroy any land connection from your southern docks to the north and and every dock but two, one south and one north of the bridges.

 

My presumption: The rail connection is faster then the ship. Driving on the streets will be very slow, so he "jumps" by ferry beyond all streets possible.

 

Thats great thinking! But the entire RAIL system has been there in place exactly as that for 22 game years, just without the bridges.  This was just one example I randomly clicked to take a picture of.  All paths used to go by ferry until the bridges, and now none do, and that traffic is not taking the bridge just avoiding it.  

 

I do like your idea however, so even though I think we know the answer, I'm going to run 5 years after killing the rail just to see what happens... will they actually be forced to go by ferry even under the bridge, or will they take roads now, or just say they cant get to work with a zot?  

 

OK back. Take a look and what some experimentation showed: 

 

I took 4 new small pictures, but Simtropolis says that I cannot upload any more. I guess those last 2 hit my limit.  

 

But I'll just tell you what you would have seen.. 

1. Clipped Rail - It went a completely different way using Rail.

2. Clipped THAT Rail - It went around the entire map using 2 bridges and still made it there.

3. Clipped THAT 3rd Rail (now there is no rail that can get it there) - It took car the whole way there!

4. Clipped the Road - It lost the job

5. Demolished all the bridges - Still neither he nor any sim took the ferries across where the Bridges WERE! 

(5 years passed - no cange)

6. Dredged the River with the (down) Mayor Tool, deepening the water along the paths of the previous bridges.

SUCCESS!!

- Now every Sim started using the Ferries again all the way! 

7. Restored all the Rail and Roads previously clipped - A few sims switched, but the massive bulk remained using the ferry system as they did before the bridges were placed.

 

So what does this show us?  It seems that the latest NAM version's bridges (at least rail) raise the river bottom in a way that kills ferries regardless of height.  I'm thinking I should go back and use the QueryTerrain Tool to put some numbers behind all this.  (just thought of that.)

 

I'm sure you would have enjoyed seeing the images, what are your thoughts now?  Could the NAM be broken? Or am I just using it wrong? Thanks.

[SimMavGER 8]

Checked one of my cities - the bridge was built with the latest NAM, ferry traffic is not interrupted.

 

Have you rebuilt the bridges in the meantime? Cantilevered Truss is working for me - I think its a Maxis bridge but I am not sure.

 

Tried the your bridge model, popup showed "green" - impeded ferry traffic instantly - but after demolishing it the route was reestablished.

 

Edit: Cant see any terrain changes after several bridges.

[Magneto 316]

If the terraforming cut your ferry route then I'll assume either your river is pretty narrow (and not very deep), or there's too much height difference between the edges, or you use a strict slope mod.

Rail is stiffer than road, hence the more significative terraforming. But that doesn't come from the NAM: even in the Vanilla game, the terrain adapts  to the network.

[infamousjbe 593]

 

I took 4 new small pictures, but Simtropolis says that I cannot upload any more. I guess those last 2 hit my limit.  

 

 

Was going to suggest this before you asked, for the exact reason you asked again.. lol.   

 

Best solution is to use a free image storage site. Here's a link to the two most popular (by mention)

 

https://s911.photobucket.com/

 

 

http://imageshack.us/

[Turjan 1,048]

Checked one of my cities - the bridge was built with the latest NAM, ferry traffic is not interrupted.

 

Have you rebuilt the bridges in the meantime? Cantilevered Truss is working for me - I think its a Maxis bridge but I am not sure.

 

Tried the your bridge model, popup showed "green" - impeded ferry traffic instantly - but after demolishing it the route was reestablished.

 

So, do I read that right that you basically confirmed Cougar 2004's observation that this bridge model blocks ferry traffic, and using a different bridge (cantilevered truss) prevents the problem?

[SimMavGER 8]

So, do I read that right that you basically confirmed Cougar 2004's observation that this bridge model blocks ferry traffic, and using a different bridge (cantilevered truss) prevents the problem?

 

Yes.

Only that ferry traffic was always resumed after I destroyed the bridge, no "clean-up"-terraforming was necessary for this.

 

 

If the terraforming cut your ferry route then I'll assume either your river is pretty narrow (and not very deep), or there's too much height difference between the edges, or you use a strict slope mod.

Rail is stiffer than road, hence the more significative terraforming. But that doesn't come from the NAM: even in the Vanilla game, the terrain adapts  to the network.

 

The river doesnt look to narrow to me in the pic (post #15) - but maybe it was shallow enough for this to happen - although I havent noticed this kind of behaviour yet anywhere.

But my rivers are quite deep - and my bridge is longer than Cougar's.

[SimMavGER 8]

So, do I read that right that you basically confirmed Cougar 2004's observation that this bridge model blocks ferry traffic, and using a different bridge (cantilevered truss) prevents the problem?

 

Quoted to catch your attention!

 

 

Göltzschtalbrücke - ferry takes route through "tunnel-arch" in bridge

 

Level Rail Bridge 15,5 - Warren Undertruss 15,5 - Overdeck Truss Rail - Royal Albert Saltash STR - Metal Arched - Metal Pylon - Modern - Rural - Over deck Truss - Cantileverd Truss - Small Steel Arch - Under Truss - Level Rail

 

ferry route OK

 

Plate Girder STR - Howe Truss STR - Wooden Trestle STR - Warzone - Howe Truss - Garabit Arched (both)- Garabit Pylon (both)

 

ferry route BROKEN

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Interesting.  Must be something about these bridges that form a barrier???

[AcmeSigns 97]

I'll go out on a limb and ask, based on the images you posted, is it possible that because the bridges are diagonal that they aren't leaving enough space between the trusses for a ferry to get through? Do ferries travel in a straight line or can they cut a diagonal?

[Cougar2004 128]

I'll go out on a limb and ask, based on the images you posted, is it possible that because the bridges are diagonal that they aren't leaving enough space between the trusses for a ferry to get through? Do ferries travel in a straight line or can they cut a diagonal?

 

The Bridges are Straight (not diagonal).  The River is Diagonal.  But good thinking.  Hope that helps explain. 

 

Judging by the paths the Ferries take, they seem to go straight and diagonal on my map.  You bring up a good point.  Perhaps they are trying to follow  lines that are deep enough, which is why they keep shifting as they go, or maybe its just the way Ferries move.  Perhaps others will see your post and have observations to add.

 

So, do I read that right that you basically confirmed Cougar 2004's observation that this bridge model blocks ferry traffic, and using a different bridge (cantilevered truss) prevents the problem?

 

Quoted to catch your attention!

 

 

Göltzschtalbrücke - ferry takes route through "tunnel-arch" in bridge

 

Level Rail Bridge 15,5 - Warren Undertruss 15,5 - Overdeck Truss Rail - Royal Albert Saltash STR - Metal Arched - Metal Pylon - Modern - Rural - Over deck Truss - Cantileverd Truss - Small Steel Arch - Under Truss - Level Rail

 

ferry route OK

 

Plate Girder STR - Howe Truss STR - Wooden Trestle STR - Warzone - Howe Truss - Garabit Arched (both)- Garabit Pylon (both)

 

ferry route BROKEN

 

 

This is amazing work and effort to test and provide us this list.  I'm copying it off to verify, and perhaps use in the future.

 

I wonder if the NAM team might implement a solution to these bugs in their next release.  But they probably dont care too much, or even read this forum.  

 

I'll for sure use bridges on your list of OK for Ferry if my my tests show the same results.  Thanks for doing this!  (Rep point for you)

[Ganaram Inukshuk 906]

I wonder if the NAM team might implement a solution to these bugs in their next release.  But they probably dont care too much, or even read this forum.

Best way to get a NAM Team Member to notice a problem: Post it in the appropriate thread or subforum.

https://community.simtropolis.com/forum/30-sc4-modding-transit-networks/

[Turjan 1,048]

Quoted to catch your attention!

 

Well, success! Bravo, very good investigation on your part!

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Perhaps there is a trick to building a bridge that needs to have some kind of under surface clearance.  I've never done a BAT over water, and I am not sure you can even do that with a BAT because the bridge has to be extensible.  Probably a whole other techniques set.

[Cougar2004 128]

 

So, do I read that right that you basically confirmed Cougar 2004's observation that this bridge model blocks ferry traffic, and using a different bridge (cantilevered truss) prevents the problem?

 

Quoted to catch your attention!

 

 

Göltzschtalbrücke - ferry takes route through "tunnel-arch" in bridge

 

Level Rail Bridge 15,5 - Warren Undertruss 15,5 - Overdeck Truss Rail - Royal Albert Saltash STR - Metal Arched - Metal Pylon - Modern - Rural - Over deck Truss - Cantileverd Truss - Small Steel Arch - Under Truss - Level Rail

 

ferry route OK

 

Plate Girder STR - Howe Truss STR - Wooden Trestle STR - Warzone - Howe Truss - Garabit Arched (both)- Garabit Pylon (both)

 

ferry route BROKEN

 

 

Confirmed.  I spent last night double checking this list and it is correct.  I found an interesting pattern... not sure if it means anything, but as you know, the bridge popup has the images for bridges in rows of 4.  I noticed the first bunch and the last bunch work for ferries, but nothing in the middle block.  Here is another way to see it numeric-visually (notice all the Yeses together and the No's together):

 

SimCity 4 Rail Bridges vs Ferries

=================================

 

Ferries can pass at appropriate height - Level Rail Bridge 15,5 / Warren Undertruss 15,5 / Overdeck Truss Rail / Royal Albert Saltash STR / Metal Arched / Metal Pylon / Modern / Rural / Over deck Truss / Cantileverd Truss / Small Steel Arch / Under Truss / Level Rail / Göltzschtalbrücke (ferry takes route through "tunnel-arch" in bridge only)

 

Ferries FAIL to pass even at appropriate height - Plate Girder STR / Howe Truss STR / Wooden Trestle STR / Warzone / Howe Truss / Garabit Arched (both) / Garabit Pylon (both)

 

Bridge Builder Popup (23 in rows of 4)

  1 - No

  2 - Yes

  3 - Yes

  4 - Yes

 

  5 - Yes

  6 - Yes

  7 - Yes

  8 - Yes

 

  9 - Yes

10 - Yes

11 - No

12 - No

 

13 - No

14 - No

15 - No

16 - No

 

17 - No

18 - No

19 - Yes

20 - Yes

 

21 - Yes

22 - Yes

23 - Yes (only through center)

 

Perhaps this pattern means something in the code isn't parsing through the entire loop correctly, or perhaps it represents sets of bridges added together from similar designers whereas certain ones didnt build them for ferries, or perhaps it just is a coincidence that the grouping emerged. 

 

Needless-to-say, my ferries are all running perfectly, without any additional work, simply by bulldozing the old bridges, and only using bridges from the Ferry-Approved list above! The city is back in profitable business with jobs for everyone again!  Thanks again to SimMavGER for helping get to the bottom of it so quickly.

 

 

I wonder if the NAM team might implement a solution to these bugs in their next release.  But they probably dont care too much, or even read this forum.

Best way to get a NAM Team Member to notice a problem: Post it in the appropriate thread or subforum.

https://community.simtropolis.com/forum/30-sc4-modding-transit-networks/

 

 

Thank you for the link.  A comment on this Bridge v.s. Ferries issue has now been posted to the appropriate thread. 

 

Perhaps there is a trick to building a bridge that needs to have some kind of under surface clearance.  I've never done a BAT over water, and I am not sure you can even do that with a BAT because the bridge has to be extensible.  Probably a whole other techniques set.

 

Perhaps it was just a fluke that I had to dredge, but as soon as I switched to the right bridges, no dredging was necessary (on all 3), so there may not be any reason to suspect under surface clearance anymore.  

 

The one thing I'm hoping for, is a bridge that allows ALL Transportation types across it! I have a region of many rivers so it would be the perfect solution if technology advanced far enough to do this.