SimCity: Transit and Roading Networks

[macvirt 361]

Yes it is limited, but that is the scope, it is fine for what the game is. Cities in Motion 2 has a completely different design specification and focus.

[Cartographer29 13]

I had my fun on the beta and don't wish to play with it any more, since it'll all be lost anyway. I do have these issues to comment on (that I also mentioned in the feedback form):

- The intersections at transitions of road types is annoying and not very aesthetic. Give us transition tiles (like, lanes merging or a median bullnose with hazard stripes). Anything but a full intersection, because it's not correct.

- The "shuttle bus" is a joke. This is a city simulator. It should be a city bus, not an seniors home shuttle-looking thing. And what are these little sheds for the buses? They look like storage pods or something. It also feels too micromanaged having to buy one bus at a time. Have us be able to build large "hanger-type" sheds that come with about 5 buses instead of one. Large cities don't buy a single bus at a time, and I don't have the patience to do that either.

- I was disappointed that the streetcar system couldn't be built, but that just leads me to believe they aren't ready with it yet. I still have issues with only being able to build station stops in avenue medians. Having the flexibility to build stops on the private trackage, as long as it is A) very close to a parallel road or B) right beside a road/streetcar crossing, should allow them to be built.

- Traffic signals are used when roads cross railway tracks. This is wrong in every light (pun intended). A generic railway-crossing would be nice please and thank you.

- It may seem like micro-managing, but having all intersections come with stop control (aka stop signs) would be nice. A toggle could be used if we chose to signalize every intersection built. But by not installing signals, we can cut costs. If traffic increases to a point it's a problem, we can install signals for a cost. It's not micromanaging, because cities do this on a regular basis.

- One-way streets and ramps would be nice too, especially if one decides they want to try and build an inter-city freeway from the main highway. Roundabouts too ... they're aesthetically pleasing and fun to watch!

- Pathing was less than desirable. I had a main, 4-lane arterial running through my city on a gentle arc, and built my city on both sides of it. Seems sims don't think that's the main road, because they used residential side streets as far as they could, before using the main road to get to the industrial area. Tweaking will be necessary I think before the release.

It's the details that count, and I still think that some are indeed missing. Otherwise, from a "scratch" game intended to carry the torch, there's still a flicker left in the flame. Hopefully they don't snuff it out!

[Wiimeiser 445]

The only time crosswalks on a one-road "intersection" makes sense is if it's about to become a freeway.

EDIT: Also seem to have missed that Sims will still take the shortest route rather than the quickest...

[cshmech 30]

Does anybody know how the roads (interstate) in the region are laid? Is it built in the region or are we allowed to mess with it?

This is Important for me!

[macvirt 361]

Fixed elements.

[cshmech 30]

If I can't control the intercity roads.. I don't see a point in buying this game! Its suppossed to be a game which gives 'us' all the options..

[macvirt 361]

Its suppossed to be a game which gives 'us' all the options..

Where do you get that idea from? That is pretty much opposite on the scale of reality. It is easier, cheaper and more rewarding to not release a full game today.

[cshmech 30]

You r saying we'll het these options in a later release? And i can't help but wonder why nobody is talking about it.. I thought many people played the game just to establish highway connection between cities..

[glazert 89]

You r saying we'll het these options in a later release? And i can't help but wonder why nobody is talking about it.. I thought many people played the game just to establish highway connection between cities..

You may have missed out on the previous discussions of this, but it certainly has been commented on and is given as one of the reasons why many admirers of previous SimCities are so disappointed in this "relaunch".

[macvirt 361]

You r saying we'll het these options in a later release? And i can't help but wonder why nobody is talking about it.. I thought many people played the game just to establish highway connection between cities..

You may have missed out on the previous discussions of this, but it certainly has been commented on and is given as one of the reasons why many admirers of previous SimCities are so disappointed in this "relaunch".

This aside of the discoveries on how many of such things were present in earlier stages of development, but are not part of release, how that fits in with DLC strategy today and how much it makes sense to let customers pay extra to "complete" a game.

[Hoipus 292]

You r saying we'll het these options in a later release? And i can't help but wonder why nobody is talking about it.. I thought many people played the game just to establish highway connection between cities..

You may have missed out on the previous discussions of this, but it certainly has been commented on and is given as one of the reasons why many admirers of previous SimCities are so disappointed in this "relaunch".

This aside of the discoveries on how many of such things were present in earlier stages of development, but are not part of release, how that fits in with DLC strategy today and how much it makes sense to let customers pay extra to "complete" a game.

...Would they really chalk power lines as DLC? Because I saw them in one of the earlier trailers.

[cshmech 30]

I'm gonna wait until every DLC is out (if there will be any) and then speculate on the total cost of the game.. Im not gonna buy Simcity anytime soon and I feel sorry for those who pre-ordered it.. Really what was Maxis thinking about? Just show them 3d graphics and lure people into buying a stratergy game, with no features?

Initially, when I saw how region and cities were in this game, I was thinking, they would let us choose the city tile on the region. At least I was expecting that we wud be able to design the intercity highways initially.. From my perspective, new Simcity is a big dissappointment. Basically they put us in a jail and say, 'oh look all the micro-management you could do'.. All the beta videos on youtube shows you can fill up a whole city in 20 mins.. Its a game designed only for beta!

[macvirt 361]

You r saying we'll het these options in a later release? And i can't help but wonder why nobody is talking about it.. I thought many people played the game just to establish highway connection between cities..

You may have missed out on the previous discussions of this, but it certainly has been commented on and is given as one of the reasons why many admirers of previous SimCities are so disappointed in this "relaunch".

This aside of the discoveries on how many of such things were present in earlier stages of development, but are not part of release, how that fits in with DLC strategy today and how much it makes sense to let customers pay extra to "complete" a game.

...Would they really chalk power lines as DLC? Because I saw them in one of the earlier trailers.

Why not.

Anything, and I do mean anything, that can be added - regardless of whether it changes, introduces or replaces - is potential DLC. The only decision point there is the balance between the task of supporting a release and maintaining commercial gain post-release.

For example if the release were to suffer from certain issues, that would qualify as non-commercial change / introduction / replacement, potentially accompanied by a modicum of something extra (a smart publisher would insist on that, to be honest). Still, the reverse is also quite possible - introduce new content, commercially, with inclusion of elements that replace something "not working as intended", that scenario however is quite rare. More often you encounter seperation of support and commercial tracks.

Let's be honest, particularly proper moddability feature, function and content sets, are of interest for DLC as well. While I do not doubt that Maxis have learned how a franchise flagship can continue to be nurtured and grown by means of moddability I also vividly recall the statements of EA on the phenomenon of user created content. The focal point there is this strange insistance of how that equals losing money. Something of a conviction I do believe Maxis would object to, but that is something they can only take to the EA table by means of powerpoint & graphs that show a direct relation between moddability and revenue for growth and gain higher than what EA believes achievable without "competition with the user".

Don't get me wrong, EA does have a point. There have been plenty examples in this industry where titles were provided with DLC tracks to strengthen sales only to find that customers mostly ignored those in favour of user created content / features. The thing there though is that a) this took place much earlier in the "history" of DLC (people are much more accustomed to it now) where often enough the publishers pushed through rather ridiculous prices (think FPS map packs for half the game's price) and b) this in genres where the emphasis was mostly on multiplayer dynamics (which include the typical group dynamics extending messaging reach to outside of the game environment, think fora as well as review portals and social media).

SimCity as a game concept however is much less at risk of that than for example an FPS title. An FPS title rolls out tuned to concepts like ranking, messaging and shouting "epic" everywhere the user and buddies go. So to speak, you get the point. SimCity now features a multiplayer component, but it is a quite limited one (and really it should be because otherwise you take it away from core behavioural components but also run the risk of exposing it so - so to speak - the more risky sides of beforementioned dynamics). It is still, even it its current limited / leisure reboot focus a game of building (rather than destroying) and a game of puzzling (albeit it in a very limited manner). The difference there is that a building focus instigates very different social behaviour than that of a destroying focus. With both the user may be enabled to "show off", but the first tends to promote very different emotional components than the latter Not to mention how the latter rests heavily on something called "instant gratification" (which comes with its own bunch of behavioural triggers and thus excesses) while the first still rests on achieving gratification over time. Less immersive than SC4, sure, but still SimCity 2013 is not a game of "hit & run".

There is also the required scenario planning of what to keep in reserve for the time where the product is put on the backburner. New projects pop up, new titles have to be developed, technologies change, and so forth. There will come a time when SimCity 2013 will no longer be a prime product. And if there is one thing the Maxis developers have seen, much like how the guys from Firaxis figured this out with their flagship title, is that such a non-supported product can stay alive, even grow and contribute immensely to the resources that will be available for a next incarnation. So something will have to be planned for a retirement staging of the product. Personally I do not think Maxis should leave proper moddability until that time, because it takes time to build up sustainable product loyalty and let's be honest - no matter how much DLC they come up with the emotive investment of the types of users that pick up the challenge of moddability are not the ones that "swallow" all the DLC without thinking and - after spending all that extra money year after year - are somehow expected to still make completely different yet even deeper investment in order to nurture the product.

Moddability will, I suspect, come in stages. Which presents the risk of it losing priority over time, remaining limited to beyond that point where such core user types are willing to invest goodwill and that unique intangible exergy.

What we can say - again - is that anything customers can come up with is potential DLC. That is that competition risk EA is not happy about. This includes anything the developers may have wanted to do, but ran out of resources to accomplish. It also includes anything that was cut from feature and design specifications resulting out of the decisions on how to target the product, to whom and how (think of those elements that make it a casual game which could be enhanced or complemented to deepen the experience or the simulation). It also includes anything that quite simply can sell because people like to see their reality and wishes alike reflected from the real into the virtual. Someone may never visit Paris, but replicating it in a game and dreaming about it will be seized with both hands (ok, Porki's works shame the Paris stuff from Maxis, but that is beside the point here). Another person may live in a country where in spite of this being the 21st century they still dubb hollywood and bollywood movies into their local language, and wish to be able to replicate not just the look but also the feel of things according to his or her own culture. Think not just buildings, but also road textures or signs or stoplights.

It is simple really. Anything that is not present on release is potential DLC. And people will pay for it, regardless of what communities like this one think. Because such communities are not the target market. They are an enabler for parts of the marketing. Nothing more.

[metarvo 710]

I've noticed that the "streets" are 24m wide and the "avenues" are 48m wide.  This means that these networks are wider than their SC4 equivalents.  Some of us thought that the networks in SC4 were too wide if anything, when compared to Google satellite maps and the like.  Of course, this is only a minor issue compared to the increased road functionality and indeed the multitude of other things SC4 players like (or don't like) about the game.

[Haljackey 17,354]

Well remember that streets can include medium and high density streets, which are 4 lanes wide. At 24m, 4 lanes is a tight fit.

 

The avenues can be as wide as 6 lanes + two streetcar tracks in the median. That's technically 8 lanes, and at double the width of a 4 lane street, it makes sense.

[DCMetro34 577]

Well remember that streets can include medium and high density streets, which are 4 lanes wide. At 24m, 4 lanes is a tight fit.

 

The avenues can be as wide as 6 lanes + two streetcar tracks in the median. That's technically 8 lanes, and at double the width of a 4 lane street, it makes sense.

 

So this means each "tile" in a game is 24 meters, or does it even have tiles?

[Wiimeiser 445]

The "tiles" would be 1cmx1cm, but the roads are actually splines, so I don't think there'd be any tiles whatsoever. Not even 1nmx1nm.

[Haljackey 17,354]

No tiles in this game... But there are 'snap points' and 'grids' that can be created.

 

Lot lines would probably be the closest thing to a tile-based system older SC-games had. Helpful for zoning and road layouts.

[cshmech 30]

 

So this means each "tile" in a game is 24 meters, or does it even have tiles?

I reckon Simcity is not based on tiles, to have curvy roads. You don't zone a tile here, instead the roadside. Which is a great improvement in my opinion, but city size limit and the lack of Intercity roading (controlled by player) is a big defect. Maxis shouln't have released the game without developing such gameplay. Quigley kept saying in the promos "real cities don't exist in a bubble". But they have done exactly that! If I can share, fire and police services with another city, I should also have the option of how I connect to another city.. Not bubble to bubble auto-connection.

[Conny 7]

I like this approche to lay out rail tracks eventhough it is in an very early stage. This would be nice to have in the new SC:

 

http://vimeo.com/55925431#at=0

[Goldenkrow 4]

Im kind of disappointed seeing the latest OCean's video about trains, that the TRAIN STOPS FOR CARS?  What? XD That seems really really bad.  Hopefully they can fix this

[MrBomba 9]

Im kind of disappointed seeing the latest OCean's video about trains, that the TRAIN STOPS FOR CARS?  What? XD That seems really really bad.  Hopefully they can fix this

 

He later tweeted: "Ocean Quigley

‏@oceanquigley

 

@Scott65751065 Yeah, that's a bug. We are still working on that."

[nhgriffith 179]

Yea, Ocean shortly tweeted that that issue is a bug that they're working on fixing. Moreover, by release, those stoplights at RR Xings will end up being the tradition railroad crossing gates.

The point of the video was to show trains rolling around. It's not a finished product.

[Sunfighter 186]

Im kind of disappointed seeing the latest OCean's video about trains, that the TRAIN STOPS FOR CARS?  What? XD That seems really really bad.  Hopefully they can fix this

 

He later tweeted: "Ocean Quigley

‏@oceanquigley

 

@Scott65751065 Yeah, that's a bug. We are still working on that."

 

Thats very scary honestly. .... a bug like that shouldnt be in a game thats already in "gold" state. Well that was true 5-10 years ago..now a days it seems the norm. Cant shake the feeling this is a pushed release. Not as terrible as Sword of the stars 2 hopefully. Though I dont think anything could beat that release.

[nhgriffith 179]

Thats very scary honestly. .... a bug like that shouldnt be in a game thats already in "gold" state. Well that was true 5-10 years ago..now a days it seems the norm. Cant shake the feeling this is a pushed release. Not as terrible as Sword of the stars 2 hopefully. Though I dont think anything could beat that release.

No it's not. The game doesn't release for another month yet. They're not even done doing betas. Heck, it may not even really be a "bug," so much as Maxis simply hasn't properly coded that intersection (to me, "bug" implies that it's broken and the programmers aren't sure how or why yet).

They certainly haven't printed any discs yet, and even if they had, you have to be connected to Origin in order to play the game. We know what that means, right? First thing you do after installing the game is get an update patch to get all the code that they wrote between printing and release date.

It's more than normal nowadays.

[RoseCityAlive 9]

You have to remember that this is the reason that the do Beta tests, to find little things like that. Also im sure hundreds of small changes happen every day thanks to the devs. I think its safe to assume that if a new beta was launched right now, by tomorrow at the same time it would be out of date. Im not worried. 

[Sunfighter 186]

You have to remember that this is the reason that the do Beta tests, to find little things like that. Also im sure hundreds of small changes happen every day thanks to the devs. I think its safe to assume that if a new beta was launched right now, by tomorrow at the same time it would be out of date. Im not worried. 

 

They dont do beta tests while a game is already Gold. Network tests maybe, but beta...no.  They are already stamping the CDs. The game entered gold state before ever getting a polish day. Im sorry but thats very worrying.

 

The "beta" you are seeing upcoming is a network test at best..and a marketing ploy to increase pre-orders at worst. (pre-order today and get access to the beta!!), A game where the CDs are being stamped is no longer in beta stage as much as they want to call it that.

[noxiousdog 6]

You have to remember that this is the reason that the do Beta tests, to find little things like that. Also im sure hundreds of small changes happen every day thanks to the devs. I think its safe to assume that if a new beta was launched right now, by tomorrow at the same time it would be out of date. Im not worried. 

 

They dont do beta tests while a game is already Gold. Network tests maybe, but beta...no.  They are already stamping the CDs. The game entered gold state before ever getting a polish day. Im sorry but thats very worrying.

 

The "beta" you are seeing upcoming is a network test at best..and a marketing ploy to increase pre-orders at worst. (pre-order today and get access to the beta!!), A game where the CDs are being stamped is no longer in beta stage as much as they want to call it that.

 

Regardless, they can put in a release day patch.

[RoseCityAlive 9]

 

You have to remember that this is the reason that the do Beta tests, to find little things like that. Also im sure hundreds of small changes happen every day thanks to the devs. I think its safe to assume that if a new beta was launched right now, by tomorrow at the same time it would be out of date. Im not worried. 

 

They dont do beta tests while a game is already Gold. Network tests maybe, but beta...no.  They are already stamping the CDs. The game entered gold state before ever getting a polish day. Im sorry but thats very worrying.

 

The "beta" you are seeing upcoming is a network test at best..and a marketing ploy to increase pre-orders at worst. (pre-order today and get access to the beta!!), A game where the CDs are being stamped is no longer in beta stage as much as they want to call it that.

 

Regardless, they can put in a release day patch.

Exactly! They could have started stamping the DVDs the day they announced the game was in development and it wouldn't have made a difference, because this game is constantly connected to Origin they can patch and change things all they want. Remember Calling it "Gold" is implying that its in the final stages of development and then thats it, its out, but we all know that when a game is released it is never completely finished, patches, tweaks, and tuning are constantly going on. Look at Battlefield 3 as a great example of post launch support. I think we will see this same thing with Simcity. 

[Matches 0]

I've noticed that the "streets" are 24m wide and the "avenues" are 48m wide.  This means that these networks are wider than their SC4 equivalents.  Some of us thought that the networks in SC4 were too wide if anything, when compared to Google satellite maps and the like.  Of course, this is only a minor issue compared to the increased road functionality and indeed the multitude of other things SC4 players like (or don't like) about the game.

Is there any truth to this?  How wide are the two-lane, "low density streets" that we see in the beta?  24m is probably too wide even for a medium density 4-lane road.  Should be about 8m per lane for a low-speed street, and that includes sidewalks.  Medium-speed, 4-lane road should be 21 meters, including sidewalks.  Even the widest of avenues around here, which is 6 lanes with grass median, is about 36 meters across, including sidewalks.