SimCity: Transit and Roading Networks

[YUUU 65]

I'd be willing to argue that subways are indeed not the norm for cities. According to Wikipedia, of the 285 cities in the United States only only 11 of them have have subway systems. Even the 4th largest city in the US, Houston, with a population of ~2 million, doesn't have one.

However, I would say that subways are iconic parts of the few cities there in, and thus should probably be included in this game at some point in the future.

Do the same for Europe or Asia and see how the stats differ.... That's pretty much a US centric view there.

France and Germany together have more metrosystems than the whole of the USA. I can count 49 metrosystems in Europe excluding the non European part of Russia wich would add another 6 systems.

The whole world has 160 metrosystems (2011), only 11 are in the US.

[Urban Cartographer 601]

Let us add Montreal and Toronto (my avatar is that of a very new Toronto subway train) to the mix (the only two Canadian cities with true subway systems (Vancouver's Canada Line is not a full subway (despite having fully grade-separated third rails and an underground segment with a few stations))). Anglo-America now has 13 subway systems.

Even then, the point still stands. SC2013 should have subways in the base game and not have such a strong North American bias.

[JaceTwice 115]

I'd be willing to argue that subways are indeed not the norm for cities. According to Wikipedia, of the 285 cities in the United States only only 11 of them have have subway systems. Even the 4th largest city in the US, Houston, with a population of ~2 million, doesn't have one.

However, I would say that subways are iconic parts of the few cities there in, and thus should probably be included in this game at some point in the future.

Do the same for Europe or Asia and see how the stats differ.... That's pretty much a US centric view there.

France and Germany together have more metrosystems than the whole of the USA. I can count 49 metrosystems in Europe excluding the non European part of Russia wich would add another 6 systems.

The whole world has 160 metrosystems (2011), only 11 are in the US.

My point is simply that Merto systems are by no means the norm for a city. Accoring to this site there are 2851 cities with a population of over 150,000 in the world. (A higher baseline from what I was using for my US figures) Given that information, roughly 5-6% of cities on the face of the planet have Metro systems. And that number actually is lower given that there are single cities on that list of metro systems that have multiple systems.

And personally I think that the US comparison is fair since the game itself is so US centric.

While I'd like subways in the game eventually, I think there are better problems to solve first. Even if they were confirmed, subways wouldn't be of much use in the 2km x 2km play area we have right now. Let the cities sizes expand first, then let's rally for subways when they'd acually be of some use.

[macvirt 361]

It does not matter what is norm, it does not even matter whether there is a norm.

People are sold a game. A game that is sold to them so they can create, replicate and simulate. That is the fundamental argument for games like SC.

Yes, it is clear that Maxis has hit a bit of a marketing glitch with some issues, but that is a different debate. So while they put the "realistic" argument on the table (even if that quite simply results in user expectations on all points of "create, replicate, simulate") let's not go in to that again.

I don't know how to make it more clear. To create, to replicate, to simulate. That is the sales pitch that buys the dream, the virtual world. Leaving elements out of that which people know of, elements which they equate to these three points of "create, replicate, simulate" is really not a smart decision in the project planning.

I've mentioned arguments from a perspective of urban development, demographics and other variables before as well. But it seems those are not important, perhaps you are only looking for argument that emphasise or provide foundation to your chosen perspective. That is possible.

By the way, did you know that the extended subway development plan for Amsterdam actually incorporates 8 lines in a 2x2km area because there is no other viable method left to offset transportation requirement development curves?

[JaceTwice 115]

It does not matter what is norm, it does not even matter whether there is a norm.

People are sold a game. A game that is sold to them so they can create, replicate and simulate. That is the fundamental argument for games like SC.

Yes, it is clear that Maxis has hit a bit of a marketing glitch with some issues, but that is a different debate. So while they put the "realistic" argument on the table (even if that quite simply results in user expectations on all points of "create, replicate, simulate") let's not go in to that again.

I don't know how to make it more clear. To create, to replicate, to simulate. That is the sales pitch that buys the dream, the virtual world. Leaving elements out of that which people know of, elements which they equate to these three points of "create, replicate, simulate" is really not a smart decision in the project planning.

I get this and I agree. Subways should be included simply because they are iconic and a part of the greater concept of what a city is. Admittedly the argument of "is it the norm?" is at best tangential to the game itself.

Trust me, the advertised "realism" wouldn't be a sticking factor for me even if the game was a decent representation of how an actual city is built. It's the way Maxis has abstracted the process that makes me excited.

I've mentioned arguments from a perspective of urban development, demographics and other variables before as well. But it seems those are not important, perhaps you are only looking for argument that emphasise or provide foundation to your chosen perspective. That is possible.

The last thing I would want to do is hush opposing views. (it's the reason I post here instead of SimCity.com) If it seems like I am, I'm sorry. I'm just stating what I think would be best for the game that I think that Maxis is trying to make.

By the way, did you know that the extended subway development plan for Amsterdam actually incorporates 8 lines in a 2x2km area because there is no other viable method left to offset transportation requirement development curves?

Interesting to see what solutions people will come up with. Though I still think the game would better off if Maxis focused on increasing the map sizes before implementing subways.

[macvirt 361]

I get the idea the topic of map sizes will have to wait for changes in priorities - or adjustments - on the remote side, at minimum after the marketing round (the beta) and perhaps even till after that. There is too much in terms of focus on the multiplayer aspect (and the various dependancies coming forth from attached mechanisms like market, neighbours, connectivity, etc) which reminds me of mechanisms once discussed at a GDC. While there are bottlenecks in terms of hardware / platform capabilities for the client (particularly in terms of data and transactions visualisation and rendering) things like these, when connected through a server side element, tend to have the more structural "bottlenecks" (they tend to be design specifications) on the server side. I don't doubt that there are client side considerations, it's just that just about every game with an online multiplayer element tends to have its imposed limits according to projections on the server side for where it comes to how much a user can do.

If I am right, perhaps after the cluster burns down the first time once beta users connect en masse (heh) or after adjustments during release stage perhaps map size can become a topic internally, for real.

Then again, it may also be a limitation arising from how the GBE was further developed / adjusted to this product. If that is the case, that's not so good.

Either way, I find it very interesting that even with Maxis restricting communications to technical content and feature elements this is something they remain completely silent on.

[Vampirovibrio 43]

I wonder if the speed of vehicles would be determine by the type of road as well as turns and junctions like in Simcity 4. Also, will toll gates be available like in the rush hour expansion. If so, is there a penalty to the speed of the car as it approaches and goes through the toll gate. I think it would be cool to have toll gates so that one can possibly direct traffic to lesser travel roads to reduce congestions.

[macvirt 361]

I wonder if the speed of vehicles would be determine by the type of road as well as turns and junctions like in Simcity 4. Also, will toll gates be available like in the rush hour expansion. If so, is there a penalty to the speed of the car as it approaches and goes through the toll gate. I think it would be cool to have toll gates so that one can possibly direct traffic to lesser travel roads to reduce congestions.

To be blunt, I would really like it if that were up to the user. Speed limits in one country are not the same as in another country. Also on a basic level of experience it would - in the absence of systems like subways to offset transportation network limitations in dense population / usage zones - be quite neat if this were a variable the user could tweak, and observe results of.

Same for toll gates and their fees, perhaps it takes it too far, but I would love to be able to tweak individual (or even toll gate type specific) rates to engage in patterns of encouraging / discouraging use.

[F2CMaDMaXX 12]

Why would you leave the speed limits to the users? why would anyone not set them to the highest....

[macvirt 361]

Why would you leave the speed limits to the users? why would anyone not set them to the highest....

Personally? Because I would like to see if there are relations between speed limits, road condition, agent behavioural patterns and thus see if there is impact on things like pollution or maintenance costs or traffic jams.

Ofcourse, if hospitals had some sort of mechanism for tracking and reporting organ transplantation requirements and deficiences in meeting those needs of the sims in my city, then I would set them to the highest yes ....

[ArtemL 14]

Personally? Because I would like to see if there are relations between speed limits, road condition, agent behavioural patterns and thus see if there is impact on things like pollution or maintenance costs or traffic jams.

Interesting experiment indeed, but it would require too much micromanagement, so I afraid it's not gonna happen.

[macvirt 361]

Personally? Because I would like to see if there are relations between speed limits, road condition, agent behavioural patterns and thus see if there is impact on things like pollution or maintenance costs or traffic jams.

Interesting experiment indeed, but it would require too much micromanagement, so I afraid it's not gonna happen.

Agreed, a little less strategic focus and a little more game design focus though could easily present such options to users, options where the user decides to what level of detail he or she takes the experience.

[marksman1416 12]

Personally? Because I would like to see if there are relations between speed limits, road condition, agent behavioural patterns and thus see if there is impact on things like pollution or maintenance costs or traffic jams.

Interesting experiment indeed, but it would require too much micromanagement, so I afraid it's not gonna happen.

You are getting into transportation engineering then, too detailed for any game.

[F2CMaDMaXX 12]

Right, and specifically into actual simulation, nothing to do with a game, people go to work each day to study that.

[Moonraker0 193]

Personally? Because I would like to see if there are relations between speed limits, road condition, agent behavioural patterns and thus see if there is impact on things like pollution or maintenance costs or traffic jams.

Interesting experiment indeed, but it would require too much micromanagement, so I afraid it's not gonna happen.

You're saying that setting a speed limit is too much micromanagement? Seems pretty simple to me. Also, I think there should be as much micromanagement (options) in a simulation game as possible, such as the whole bus route drawing thing.

Personally? Because I would like to see if there are relations between speed limits, road condition, agent behavioural patterns and thus see if there is impact on things like pollution or maintenance costs or traffic jams.

Interesting experiment indeed, but it would require too much micromanagement, so I afraid it's not gonna happen.

You are getting into transportation engineering then, too detailed for any game.

Right, and specifically into actual simulation, nothing to do with a game, people go to work each day to study that.

I don't see how it's bad to have as realistic of a traffic simulation as possible; this is a city building/simulation game after all. All macvirt is saying it that he wants to study how speed limits affect other things, which is a player's choice of what to pay attention to in the game, nothing to do with the game being too detailed. There should definitely be effects on pollution, maintenance costs, and traffic jams caused by speed limits. It would just be a more complex simulation, but not any harder to play, just more realistic.

[F2CMaDMaXX 12]

That's interesting, it's not fun, nor a game.

[JaceTwice 115]

Fun is subjective, and I doubt that any single SimCity mechanic taken out of context could be called a game either.

Control over speed limits could be an interesting addition to the transport system, though it does lean a little too close the the micromanagement side of things I think. But if you didn't have to bother with them I don't see the harm.

[Msprintz 25]

I'd be willing to argue that subways are indeed not the norm for cities. According to Wikipedia, of the 285 cities in the United States only only 11 of them have have subway systems. Even the 4th largest city in the US, Houston, with a population of ~2 million, doesn't have one.

However, I would say that subways are iconic parts of the few cities there in, and thus should probably be included in this game at some point in the future.

Whether a city has a subway system or not has more to do with the time period that city developed, with the oldest cities in the United States having some of the most extensive subway systems. Those cities include Boston ( first subway in the United States of America ), New York, and Chicago. Philadelphia could be included in this list as well, their system came out pre-world war II. Baltimore and Washington D.C. on the other hand are omitted as both of their networks were built post world war II.

Obviously those cities that developed post 1900, amid the surge of auto-mobility bought about by the automobile opted to go with a network of highways over light rail and subways. Houston is included on the list of those cities, along with San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Seattle, Phoenix, and Dallas. Among those cities San Francisco and Los Angeles have built subway systems, and have plans to expand those systems. Houston, Dallas, Seattle, and Phoenix are developing light rail systems, and expanding them to augment current bus systems.

This is also why American cities differ from their European and Asian counterparts, especially with their large avenues and pre-planned suburbs.

[Urban Cartographer 601]

I'd be willing to argue that subways are indeed not the norm for cities. According to Wikipedia, of the 285 cities in the United States only only 11 of them have have subway systems. Even the 4th largest city in the US, Houston, with a population of ~2 million, doesn't have one.

However, I would say that subways are iconic parts of the few cities there in, and thus should probably be included in this game at some point in the future.

Whether a city has a subway system or not has more to do with the time period that city developed, with the oldest cities in the United States having some of the most extensive subway systems. Those cities include Boston ( first subway in the United States of America ), New York, and Chicago. Philadelphia could be included in this list as well, their system came out pre-world war II. Baltimore and Washington D.C. on the other hand are omitted as both of their networks were built post world war II.

Obviously those cities that developed post 1900, amid the surge of auto-mobility bought about by the automobile opted to go with a network of highways over light rail and subways. Houston is included on the list of those cities, along with San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Seattle, Phoenix, and Dallas. Among those cities San Francisco and Los Angeles have built subway systems, and have plans to expand those systems. Houston, Dallas, Seattle, and Phoenix are developing light rail systems, and expanding them to augment current bus systems.

This is also why American cities differ from their European and Asian counterparts, especially with their large avenues and pre-planned suburbs.

Let us look at Toronto. Toronto has an extensive streetcar system (still does today) and has Canada's oldest subway system since 1954 (and is being expanded). Toronto is also developing an extensive light rail system as well.

[Cob92 360]

I'd be willing to argue that subways are indeed not the norm for cities. According to Wikipedia, of the 285 cities in the United States only only 11 of them have have subway systems. Even the 4th largest city in the US, Houston, with a population of ~2 million, doesn't have one.

However, I would say that subways are iconic parts of the few cities there in, and thus should probably be included in this game at some point in the future.

Whether a city has a subway system or not has more to do with the time period that city developed, with the oldest cities in the United States having some of the most extensive subway systems. Those cities include Boston ( first subway in the United States of America ), New York, and Chicago. Philadelphia could be included in this list as well, their system came out pre-world war II. Baltimore and Washington D.C. on the other hand are omitted as both of their networks were built post world war II.

Obviously those cities that developed post 1900, amid the surge of auto-mobility bought about by the automobile opted to go with a network of highways over light rail and subways. Houston is included on the list of those cities, along with San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Seattle, Phoenix, and Dallas. Among those cities San Francisco and Los Angeles have built subway systems, and have plans to expand those systems. Houston, Dallas, Seattle, and Phoenix are developing light rail systems, and expanding them to augment current bus systems.

This is also why American cities differ from their European and Asian counterparts, especially with their large avenues and pre-planned suburbs.

I would actually lump San Francisco in more with the first group. It developed much earlier than other West Coast cities, and the mass transit that actually functions within the city (including the famous cable cars) has been in place since the beginning of the last century. In fact, most all American cities had mass transit up until the mid-20th century. Cities like Los Angeles and Houston actually worked to demolish their mass transit systems in order to expand their road networks. Interstate 45 south of Houston actually sits on land that was once occupied by an interurban electric railway, linking Houston and Galveston.

[Haljackey 17,385]

Eugh!

http://twitter.com/o...9092224/photo/1

Wow I'm sorry but that looks ugly. I mean I like the curved road bridge but the rest is

SC13 has a long way to go in two short months.

[marksman1416 12]

Eugh!

http://twitter.com/o...9092224/photo/1

Wow I'm sorry but that looks ugly. I mean I like the curved road bridge but the rest is

SC13 has a long way to go in two short months.

I'm sure its just an art issue. The roads are realistic that they curve around to get down a moutain. From an engineering perspective it looks perfectly fine.

[BLANKBLANK 4,414]

Eugh!

http://twitter.com/o...9092224/photo/1

Wow I'm sorry but that looks ugly. I mean I like the curved road bridge but the rest is

SC13 has a long way to go in two short months.

It looks good, but I think the inclusion of the street lights beyond the bridge is unneccessary and removing them would make it look better. There should be some sort of street-light inclusion thingy were street lights only appear next to buildings, or maybe you can build roads where street lights can be toggled on/off at will.

[Urban Cartographer 601]

Eugh!

http://twitter.com/o...9092224/photo/1

Wow I'm sorry but that looks ugly. I mean I like the curved road bridge but the rest is

SC13 has a long way to go in two short months.

Even Hamilton, Ontario does a better job than this.

[Hoipus 292]

I know I'm picky here, and this might be more suitable for another thread, but the cliffsides in this game always looked kinda odd to me. In the picture in the post above me it reminds me of a sandcastle or a sand dune more than a cliff.

[rohirrimelf 12]

Hi all, I have posted this question in another tread but hopefully i get an answer here.

"simcity 2013

When u start with smal road and want to expand with more lanes so traffic can pass through more easely. What happens to the buildings from residents/commercial/industry etc next to it when u expand the roads. Do they get buldozered down to make place for a wider road. I`m not sure about this and would like to know when i start with an early city in beta with little cash and want to expand because of traffic jams."

[Ocram's Razr 964]

There are two widths of road. The first one ranges from large dirt alleys to narrow undivided 2x2 lane avenues. The second is 3/2 the width of the first one and it ranges from a divided 2x2 boulevard avenue to a 3x3 expressway to a 3x3 avenue with trams in the middle.

--Ocram

[Haljackey 17,385]

Any beta players been able to get rid of the intersection that lies right at the entrance to your city connection? It looks awful, although I've been getting creative to try and get it to look like a little less of an eyesore.

The intersections themselves seem like they still need a lot of work... They've been glitching a lot for me (but then again I'm pushing them to and past their limits )

[Moonraker0 193]

Yeah, it kind of bothers me; I usually just connect the intersection with another road, but it's not good to have such little space between a highway ramp and the intersection because of people weaving/changing lanes to turn after merging. I'm pretty sure that the only way to avoid it is to continue a six-lane avenue out from it instead of the four lane one, but the six-lane avenue isn't in the beta. However, I saw that in the neighboring town in the tutorial, there wasn't an intersection there because the six-lane avenue continued from it.

I tried to make some odd five/six way intersections, but it didn't seem to work...not that that's something I'd normally consider a good idea, but just to test it. In Cities XL they're possible, but the traffic lights in that game are the kind where you can make any turn from a green light because only one direction is green at a time, so it works out there.

[JoeB123 2]

road system sucks in the new simcity cities in motion 2 looks to be much better

After playing simcity 4 RH this a this is a big let down.