NAM General Discussion Thread

[MiniMark 7]

Lets set the bar straight.

The NAM will be released when it's good and ready to be released. Too many modders are busy and overwhelmed with RLS. I for one am eagerly awaiting the next release as much as the next person is. So be patient and it will come when it comes. However until then be thankful we have a decent version to use until then as for one I am sastified with this version.

[Tarkus 6,932]

@MiniMark:  I know the NAM people have serious RL stuff . . . I've been there too.  But I think the reason why some people here and on the various other transit modding threads (myself included) are wondering "if" NAM 20 has become "vaporware" is not out of disrepect to the amazing NAM team.  Rather, there's a bunch of us who are starting into transit modding and want to help out.

-Tarkus

[gonza122 0]

im having a problem with NAM. i install it, then run the game and crashes... help plz!

[nino71 0]

Please maybe you can help i like to download nam so i can get the tools for tram / light rail in sim city , where can i download this thanks

[Andreas Roth 607]

@gonza122: Please make sure to read the readme file. It has extensive coverage about all kinds of crashing issues.

@nino71: Scroll up and click on the "Modds & Downloads" button in the navigation bar. You should see the NAM download immediately.

[IdeaWorld 4]

When will the next NAM be realese? I know you guys never stop hearing this question and you always say when they finish or it will realease when it gets realese. But, I keep thinkging you guys are going to constenly get request and finish them, then more keep comming so you do more and don't realese. I don't mind, just that if you added a few stuff, i think you should realese it and fill more requests out. like make more versions of NAM and just add a few stuff. well have a good day and go NAM team!!!

Ideaworld

[Andreas Roth 607]

Actually, 90% of the requests don't make it into the NAM, since they are either impossible or way too time-consuming to make. We posted a list of what's most likely going into the next NAM version several times, and most of this stuff is either done or almost ready. But it won't help asking when the next version is ready. We're doing this in our free time, and if RL is hitting someone hard (like smoncrie, for instance, who is supposed to merge all the different content into a proper release), it's simply not possible to tell when it's done. You can expect a release date from a company, who is working on stuff like this on a daily base. But since this is only a hobby for us, we do this when we have the time and desire. And I have to admit, my desire doesn't necessarily rise when people are constantly asking about a release date.

And tell me, what would you do if we set a release date? We could say "it's finished on November 1, 2006". Ok, now November 1 comes and everyone is excited about the release - and it won't come because it's not ready, for whatever reasons. Everyone will be hugely disappointed, and the NAM team would be busy to post apologies and explanations why it didn't work out. Do you really want it like this? Isn't it better to go to Simtropolis on your daily routine, and see a new message "New NAM released today!" on the front page? Wouldn't that make your day? Think about it!

[HabLeUrG 32]

[artforce1 5]

Hey, it looks like someone is using the signs from the GHSDP project!!!!

[bwatterud 7]

Originally posted by: Andreas Roth Isn't it better to go to Simtropolis on your daily routine, and see a new message "New NAM released today!" on the front page? Wouldn't that make your day? Think about it! quote>

I'd like it better that way.

[Tarkus 6,932]

@Andreas Roth:  Point well taken.  It reminds me of what Nintendo always said when a game of theirs was late: "There is no such thing as a late game, but there is such a thing as a bad game."  (Or something to that extent.)  My apologies if I have seemed overanxious about the NAM.  It is just that there hasn't been much activity on the NAM front, and so many of us were not wondering "when" so much as "if".  Thus, I'm very thankful for this update (as well as the lengthy one qurlix posted on the RHW Development thread). 

I've done the whole "disappearing from ST due to RL" thing too, from Mid-April to sometime last month--Master's thesis, moving twice, busted computer (backlight burnt out in my LCD screen . . .), and a really slow internet connection.  So I can sympathize (at least on some level) with smoncrie.  Hope he is able to return soon, though.  But, take as much time as you need . . . I will be patiently looking forward to the new NAM when it comes out.

-Tarkus

[BrokenRecord 0]

For all those wanting another release of NAM, don't be too anxious about it. It may never come at all, or it may come with poor quality.

There are a number of reasons that another release of NAM should be viewed with caution:

1. It's been over a year. In many circles, this qualifies it as "vaporware".

2. It strikes me as a poorly organized effort. This contrasts with previous versions of NAM, which were prompt and well-organized. I'm guessing here, but I think most of the previous people who put together NAM have moved on. (They were great; very professional.) The new people are inexperienced and not interested in doing the effort it takes to release something. They strike me as a bunch of modders who love to tinker, but that's only a small part of the skillset that is needed.

3. Because of (#2), if a new release ever happens, it's likely to have many bugs and issues. You'll probably want to stick with the old NAM.

I want to be clear that I'm NOT bashing whoever is working on NAM. They're not selling anything, so nobody has any right to complain. If they never release anything worthwhile, it will still be worth at least what you paid for it!

I am simply sharing my observations on the current state of NAM development. I may be completely wrong, but judging by the huge time that has elapsed since the last NAM was released, I don't think the same people are working on it anymore. So don't expect the same quality and support we've received in the past.

[Meastro444 1]

dont bashing eh? looks like it! and why be so pessimistic? bah, i dont like that post!

Meastro444

[garfiedude 2]

Is the roundabouts feature now included in this mod?

[Tarkus 6,932]

@garfiedude: Yes, the street, road and one-way road roundabouts are included in this version of the NAM.  Avenue roundabouts aren't yet . . . its been a few months since I've heard anything on that front.

@BrokenRecord: As hard as it may be for you to believe, there still will be a NAM 20.  Sure, it is indefinitely delayed.  But, in terms of your statement "it's been over a year", that's not entirely accurate.  Yes, it has been over a year since the last NAM came out.  But, the initial reports on NAM 20 had been that it was tentatively scheduled for April . . . that's only been six months.  Thus, it is not vaporware even by your own definition.  Duke Nukem Forever is vaporware.

Honestly,  I was under that impression too (as were several others), but some key members of the NAM team have come back and updated everyone just recently (see the post by Andreas Roth on this very same page as your post), so it has put things in perspective.

As far as the experience of the NAM team, to my knowledge, the majority of the people involved with NAM 20 were involved with the current NAM.  I don't officially know since I'm not a part of the team. But it seems to me that the quality will be just as good if not better, as they've been at this longer and now know even more about modding the transit systems for SC4.  

It's not about them being "not interested in doing the effort it takes to release something".  smoncrie, who currently is the team leader for the NAM project, has had some things happen in his real life that take precedence over working on a mod for a computer game.  The same has happened with other members of the team as well. And to my knowledge, there is actually a fair amount complete on NAM 20 (as of this update from qurlix on the Rural Highway Development thread [link], it's about 1/3 of the way down). 

So, as far as I can tell, the new NAM is still coming, and it will be better than ever.  You just have to be patient--it will be released soon.  Chill.   Out.

-Tarkus

[MaybeMemories06 0]

1/3 of the way done. That puts us at what...October 2009 for a final release? 2008 at best? I don't mean to bash the people in the NAM team, however many of us are upset because we see all these wonderful things being talked about and promised with a new release, many of which are ready to be released, and we are simply anxious to get them into our own cities and games. I especially am anxious to see the new draggable GLR, and all the new peices for other networks. On a similar note, the NAM team started a tease post of what is has been and might be included in the NAM releases, and that thread has also started to stagnate. I don't believe we as a whole think it is 'vaporware', however it would be nice to at least see everything that has been promised us. Even if it is just the basics from everyone that has a part. I don't think any of us are *demanding* the completed product, we would just like to *see* progress, not just read about it all. Look at the RHW thread for example. everyone is getting props for the things they have designed because we can *see* them. They have screenshots. They are not just some words on a page. I think if the NAM team would reopen the teaser thread, or even if a couple members of the NAM team were to put what they could together and release a 'NAM 1.5' it would at least satiate us for a time. I would be perfectly happy with just having someone pm me all the files I need for GLR, so that I can continue work on my city! I hate plopping every piece. Anyway, thats my 2c worth. Someone give us something. Even something little will tide us over for now.

--Gary

[Tarkus 6,932]

Originally posted by: Tarkus @garfiedude: And to my knowledge, there is actually a fair amount complete on NAM 20 (as of this update from qurlix on the Rural Highway Development thread [link], it's about 1/3 of the way down). 

quote>

Originally posted by: MaybeMemories06 1/3 of the way done. That puts us at what...October 2009 for a final release? 2008 at best? quote>

I worded that a little unclearly . . . I meant "it's about 1/3 of the way down the page", referring to qurlix's post on the RHW thread.  All I know is that a considerable amount of work has gone into it, and RL among the NAM team (including the team leader, smoncrie) is the issue.

Sorry for the unclear implied clause . . .

-Tarkus

[godjcjk12 0]

All of us need the next NAm badly to improve transpotaATion in our cities, am i right. Just takees patience.

[jplumbley 5]

I dont understand what the damn problem is here.  Why cant you people be just a little PATIENT!!!

The NAM team has worked hard, very hard to bring us what we have today.  

What would your cities have looked without them?  

I dont see many of you guys out there (Tarkus excluded) even trying to learn what these guys have to go through.  Transit modding is not something for the fient hearted.  I have been playing around myself and have played for a few months and still know nothing compared to what some of these amazing modders know and can do.

@maybememories and brokenrecord If you guys are so impatient with the release.  Try learning what these guys have to go through to make these mods!!  Especially the extremely difficult and deep work they are attempting now.  The new stuff isnt as easy to mod because they are building new RULs that were never implemented before.  If you knew what it takes to mod this stuff maybe your would have a little more respect for these mods.

If only you guys had a clue what goes into modding the transit network....

[garfiedude 2]

Avenue roundabouts? Is that available as a seperate mod at the moment? Or will we have to wait?

Damn, this thread is so huge now, its difficult to track progress

[jplumbley 5]

@garfiedude Avenue roundabout is not available. I dont even know if it has been given much more thought than the initial process. I have not seen anything beyond a couple textures that never really panned out.

[MiniMark 7]

Hello everyone, in order to have the roundabouts just download the October NAM from last year. Draw a circle with roads or then connect it with 4 streets or roads. You will be able to have your roundabout. However avenue roundabouts aren't available.

Also please try to remember the NAM is still ongoing its just that the creators are too busy with RLS (real life syndrome).

[artforce1 5]

I think one thing should be made clear.  To everyone and I mean EVERYONE who thinks that any of this is easy is WRONG.  As someone who has donated time, energy, money (the 2 discs are super sweet people, seriously donate the money), and resources to keeping this site happy has done so out of the kindness of their own hearts.  Dozens of cultures united in one effort to make an awsome game even better.  

With that said, ANYONE WHO COMPLAINS THAT PROGRESS IS NOT BEING MADE AND HAS MADE NO OTHER COTRIBUTION TO THIS SITE OTHER THAN BRASH REMARKS CAN GET THEIR OWN HANDS DIRTY AND START LEARNING (I'm with you jplumbley)!!!!!

When I couldnt find any information on how to make highway signs, I rolled up my sleves, formed an incredible team, and made it possible.  If you honestly, truly CANNOT LIVE without an updated NAM, how about you form your own pieces and join the NAM team to help them along.  I admit even I am a little anxious but what they are doing goes far beyond my abilities so I am waiting patiently.  I asked before IF there was going to be a release.  The answer was yes so wait. 

[BrokenRecord 0]

Sorry, I never implied I was anxious for another NAM. I am very happy with the current one.

I was trying to point out to those who are anxious, they shouldn't get excited about it. A new NAM may never be released, based on the very long delay. NAM used to be updated every 1-3 months. It's been too long since the last update to think that the project is going well.

The problem may be real-life, but that simply means that knowledge and people are being lost. The project has lost "critical mass". That's never a good thing.

I'm sure it is a lot of hard work to put NAM together. I hope it does get released, otherwise that work is all for nothing. I'm not holding my breath for it though. I like the current NAM, and it is more than enough to satisfy my needs. (Thanks to those who worked on the previous releases of NAM.)

I don't mean to sound critical of those still working on NAM. But since we haven't seen a new NAM in over a year... well, things can't be going very smoothly.

[Andreas Roth 607]

Of course it is true that it has been an unusually long time since the last NAM release, but there are several perfect reasons for this. The first NAM versions were basically a series of fixes for the in-game transportation network, along with a couple of new possibilities, such as additional intersections and the like. Our knowledge was limited back then, but they were rather easy to make, from a technical viewpoint.

Also, we had some of the Transit Gods in the NAM team, such as redlotus, the7trumpets, teirusu and of course Tropod. While some of these members retired long ago, the last few NAM versions were basically compiled single handed by Tropod. Tropod was "Mr. NAM" - period. Of course there are still quite a few talented transportation modders around, namely smoncrie, who is probably the most experienced one, and therefore he has been chosen as new team leader. But as we all know, RL hit him very hard as well, and unfortunately, smoncrie is the only one who has all the various components that are supposed to go into the new NAM version.

But it's not only the manpower that's lacking at the moment. As you can imagine, every new NAM version got more complicated to maintain, and more advanced stuff got integrated. It's not a fairly simple transportation bugfix anymore, but a highly complex add-on that includes ten thousands of different files, ranging from textures to full 3D models, path files, RULs and other stuff. Every other, and I mean EVERY other mod, BAT, lot and whatnot looks like a dwarf compared to the NAM, when it comes to the complexity of this add-on for SimCity.

And there are almost no tools for editing this stuff, except for the Reader and other generic editing tools. Everything else has to be created manually, by writing RULs, INIs and path files by hand, adjusting vertices for textured 3D models (EVERY texture of an interchange has to be mapped onto the 3D model manually, and a large highway exchange for instance involves hundreds of those textures). I don't know how long the modders have been worked for these items, but it took hundreds and thousands of hours, most of the time stupid number work that makes you cross-eyed and melts your brain (really!).

On top of that, all the bits and pieces have to be merged together, making sure everything works as desired, and doesn't conflict with the game or with each other. 10,000 different files also means 10,000 different IDs that must not collide, and the central RUL file alone has more than 18,000 lines alone. Until today, I have no idea how such a file could be edited with a text editor alone, and no other tools available. Talk about magic...

And finally, there's a readme filling dozens of pages if you print everything out, explaining all items with great detail, and documenting every bit precisely. It's not a simple readme anymore, but a technical manual, which is of course a tough process to read and understand it completely, but I dare to say that 90% of all questions that come up frequently could be answered by just reading the readme files properly. The next NAM will feature a greatly enhanced document, at least visually, by using the standard SFBT readme template I came up with in collaboration with the other SFBT members more than one year ago, and which should be a lot easier to read than what we have now.

So the NAM is no vaporware at all - of course it is true that it's terribly delayed, and we can't tell when the next version will be ready, but we're prepared to compile the new release, once all bits and pieces have found their way into the core files. A good amount of new items are available at the private NAM exchange I set up, but unfortunately, not all NAM team members followed my call and uploaded the stuff they have there, due to whatever reasons. I can't blame them, since RL is sometimes tough (i. e. Tropod had no internet connection for months, and still has no regular connection, as far as I know), maybe smoncrie suffers from the same problem at the moment.

And finally, please keep in mind that this is still a hobby project, done by a few true enthusiasts in their free time. I'd also rather spend my weekend out at the beach, reading a book, going to the cinema or whatnot than sitting at my desk, crunching numbers until I get a serious headache. As huge as my dedication for the game is, it'll never take over my entire life... Modding can be fun, and I spent a good amount of my free time in front of the Reader and SC4Tool over the last few weeks, and I barely played the game at all, but once the fun turns into stress, I'll better stop.

[redfox85 659]

is there a list anywhere for whats going to be in the next nam? There are pictures spread all throughout this topic that I'm curious if there going be included (ie those onramps about 6-7 pages before this I believe)

[frimi2 0]

Originally posted by: Andreas Roth .... and I barely played the game at all, but once the fun turns into stress, I'll better stop.quote>

*sigh*  wise words, Brother Andreas

[Meastro444 1]

oh. it doenst give me a good feel about his all. the fact that the most experienced stopped a long time ago, smoncrie that has serious real life subjects to take care of. its is nice to know that it will be released. some day :S. i am not complaining, although it may sound like it. it sounds so pessimistic. it ahs given me a bit of a bad mood.

so basicly, give us some nice things to hear, some completed things for example, be possitive!

bye

Meastro444

btw, thanks Andreas, that was some informations i needed to know

[qurlix 20]

Well, to be optomistic, everything merely needs to be finished.  I don't think anything is left unstarted. 

NOTE that these are my personal projects and none of them necessarily represent components of the next NAM release.

That said, these are being mind-numbingly nonsensical...

...and this never wants to work correctly or look right...

...and I don't know why this prevents all nearby buldozing or slope changing operations...

...and this presents loads of compilation conundrums...

...and this darn ship keeps driving around my highways when I try to take any kind of modding shortcut with automata...

...but at least we have some fully functional contributions, as well as our new spiffy ShowPaths cheat, available with Buggi's cheat menu DLL.

Please don't take any of that as pessimism, though.  The project has come so far it's rather amazing.  I like to divide the history of the NAM into ages.  In the NAM's first age, it contained a few overpasses, but mainly served as a bugfixing mod.  With the development of puzzle pieces and modified interchanges, it moved into a second age; that of network extension.  Then came the development of GLR, the addition of radical new interchanges, and the preliminary turning lanes and roundabouts; the age of evolution.  This period was widely regarded as the greatest, but in reality the NAM is progressing into a greater era, that of network fluidity.  Old tools have become more and more modular and customizable, while at the same time new intersections, both simple and complex, new interchanges, and even new functions of old networks are being developed (new replacement networks, like HSR, new draggable networks, like RHW and future puzzle-drags, and new abilities, like additional bridges and tunnels).  I hate to say things like "the best is yet to come" but frankly the horizons are expanding so fast that personally I'm no longer doing any research at all for fear of creating a new possibility for networks. (I have enough to do under our current limitations!)  Yes the NAM team is having a stagnant period, but I like to think of it more as a transition period to adjust to the new modding world order.

(Ok, I'm satisfied with my cheesiness now.)

-qurlix

[Dexter 40]

All of that stuff above looks nice, and would be great if it was finished.

I have always needed an avenue roundabout, although I think those ones need some more work .

Still, this is still the best mod for Sim City 4. Without it, the game would just not be the same.