Cities Unlimited

[Zimpe 0]

Originally posted by: Elaclairee Keep your customers up to date and show that your company is looking out for them and cares, you're more likely to get their money. Its simple really, but its very nice. One of the few sales tactics that I truly like, but rarely see.quote>

This is where EA went wrong. Completly wrong then ignoring the people that buys their games. But if they do not want our money we'll go elsewhere.

[edmonton_stinks 5]

Oh man...Can't wait for the game but the website will be great to see as well. It's always nice when companies find the "sweet spot" with previews; not too much to give the game away, but enough so customers have a clear idea on what they're purchasing. I'll mark the release date on my calendar.

[dasilva 3]

Zimpe, let's not make this thread a flamming one and let these discussions to the results. ;-)

I have all respect for people working at EA and TiltedMill as I know how hard it is to make a game and you shouldn't never forget they both made great games and brought to us, players, hours and hours of fun.

You all must understand we are really (once again :-)) in early stages of development and therefore, we cannot really show you anything else than what has already been shown. We want you to be the first to know on where we go so we can all together discuss if it is tailoring the right direction.

I personally think that bringing you into this development process right from the beginning, we'll make a great game and therefore would have a lot of people to speak around how great this game is. :-)

When the game will be about to be released, you'll all get the overall picture of the game: not because you would have read it in a marketing website or brochure, but because you'll find your touch on it! ;-)

[Zimpe 0]

Well sorry about that.

[Romaq 18]

I look forward to the CU website opening in October. I've been posting on the Tilted Mill forums expressing concern over various issues as well as looking for positive, constructive comments to make. I also purchased Caesar IV as a 'preview' of SC:S. The rest of this message isn't at Philippe Da Silva or Monte Cristo, but about the messages I find here on ST about the whole mess.

I like competition. I dislike slavish adoration of a brand name. I want SC:S and Cities Unlimited to both do very well in the marketplace, presuming both have merit. I get terribly annoyed with people blindly predicting doom for one company or another on the basis of their own preconceived prejudice. I believe Electronic Arts and Tilted Mill are both reading the game market and doing their best to make a selling game. They could be wrong on how they are going to read that, but I would wish them the best and allow TM/ EA to have the right to be wrong, if in fact they are wrong. They might not be. I must admit that I'm more comfortable with the idea of SC:S having played Caesar IV.

I also grant Monte Cristo the same right to perform very well in the marketplace or be a spectacular failure, or somewhere in between. I have certain things I'm looking for in a city builder, but I'm not going to presume everyone who has money to buy the thing is just like me. I also firmly believe in brightning the corner where I am instead of going on a bent to be personally destructive to everyone who doesn't agree with me concerning a GAME. Remember, it's a GAME. Neither SC:S or CU is the second coming of Jesus Christ. "SC:S makes me so sick I puked a little in my own mouth." That's very nice. Thank you for the blessing of your announcement. "I'm glad SC:S is about to be released so we can all see how bad it is and focus our attention back on SC4 and show off how great SC4 is!" Well, I'm glad research is proving fossil fuels are driving global warming so we can make changes, but I'm not so keen on making it a world-wide law for everyone to go back to horse & buggy any more than I'm keen on shoving SC4 down everyone's throat.

I happen to agree with many of the concerns expressed concerning SimCity: Socities, particularly towards the realism of the imagery, the functionality and transit options. I've said on the Tilted Mill message board that SC:S is going to need a lot of lipstick and a very nice slinky dress to have it not look like a pig where it comes to transit and apperance issues. I've also contributed constructive suggestions and approaches to the problem, and I've also taken the time to play Caesar IV and tell the TiltedMill folks how I'm 'jealous' that Caesar IV has diagonal roads, and SC:S does not. I've also posted on their message board things I like about Caesar IV and how I believe those parts will benefit SC:S.

Perhaps nothing of what I've posted on the TM boards has been of value towards the end product. Perhaps TM has totally ignored what I would like. On the basis of some personal messages from TM staff and others reading the board, I don't believe I've been ignored. Yet it's possible I've come to the SC:S party far to late to make any meaningful difference. I at least made the effort to be a constructive force for good towards a product I might enjoy spending money on at some future date. If SC:S is only $20, it isn't going to kill me if I don't care so much for it. If one wishes to use the StarWars metaphor, attempting positive dialog with a company trying to produce a game is one hell of alot better than, "I hope TM and EAGames goes bankrupt, starves to death, rots in the street and they all die and go to hell!" That's... just a little intense for a game that sells under $50 USD, wouldn't you think? That sort of attitude doesn't much come across as the 'good, light side of the force' to me, does it? It pretty much sounds like, "You do what I want when I want on everything I want, or YOU are obivously evil and need to be destroyed!" No, that pretty much sounds like 'the dark side of the force' that some people on this message board accuse EA of belonging to.

The emotionally hard part for me is that many of the same arguements made against SC:S I happen to agree with. I have the same concerns. But I'm much MUCH more upset over the charged language and religious reaction to SC:S (and the hope of Cities Unlimited) than any negative impressions over SC:S. I'm greatful Monte Cristo is attempting to turn down the religious witch burning aspect of SC:S hatred into positive, constructive enthusiasm for city building games in general and positive potential for Cities Unlimited to be a great game.

I have deliberately mentioned on the TM boards that it is my hope that Monte Cristo reads through TM's SC:S message boards and is making notes of areas generally perceived to be weak with SC:S (Transit) and too late in TM's development cycle for them to change. Perhaps MC avoids the TM boards for various reasons, and that's fine too. But when I'm allowed the privilage of communicating on Monte Cristo's official Cities Unlimited boards, I hope to participate in generally constructive comment towards making a great city builder rather than endless choruses like "ur 2 5cre3nshotz ov CU 4re z0 h4wt 2 drop5 uv p33 c4me 0ut." That's... a little more than I wanted to know about someone's enthusiasm over Cities Unlimited. That's also why I've been reluctant to post ANYTHING here in ST about SC:S whatsoever. Some SC4 fans and their own fanatical religious enthusiasm make up their own worst enemy towards having a good citybuilder for EVERYONE to enjoy. I also note it appears someone getting overzealous and personal concerning Caesar IV got the smack-down on TM's message boards by TM staff, for which I am truely greatful. Religious biggotry and fanatical mindless enthusiasm really don't help the cause of seeing a good city builder come to the market.

So... here's to Tilted Mill and EAGames making a decent 3D city builder game that outperforms City Life in the market and creates a generally favorable impression with critics and long-time SimCity fans across the board.

And here's to Monte Cristo in hopes of making a Cities Unlimited a game great enough for me to shelve SC:S and SC4 both for my entertainment time.

It's a really big world. It's big enough for more than one 3D city builder to sit on a shelf and big enough for both products to sell really well. And it is my intention to constructively encourage Monte Cristo to make a product that sells really, really well. I benefit if Monte Cristo's Cities Unlimited is a game that doesn't leave me time or interest in SC4 or SC:S. Is it really too much to ask of people to focus on how CU can be a great product without verbal bowel movements concerning other companies and products attempting to succeed in the marketplace?

--Romaq

[Androv 6]

/applaud

I think you've just summed up what I've been thinking.  Sure, SC:S has some issues but they're not as bad to provoke the reaction we've seen on this forum and elsewhere.  And attaching so much hope to Cities Unlimited on the basis of 6-7 preliminary screenshots is a bit unrealistic.

That said, I'm also buying both games when they come out (as long as my life lets me) just because I like the genre and want to give something new a try.

[LTParis 1]

Funny how in 24 hours I learned about SCS (and so far I am not excitied about it) and then found this thread about CU (and so far I am very excited about it). your initial shots are amazing looking and I know that this community is looking for the realism angle that SCS seems to be lacking. Do you know how much longer it will be before some information is released on some of the features (e.g playability, transportation, etc.)? Are you looking to do a 2008 or 2009 release? Inquiring minds want to know.

Kudos on this effort and if the game plays as nice as the screenshots are i think you have won over many hearts and minds!

[Nevets13 27]

Originally posted by: LTParis Funny how in 24 hours I learned about SCS (and so far I am not excitied about it) and then found this thread about CU (and so far I am very excited about it). your initial shots are amazing looking and I know that this community is looking for the realism angle that SCS seems to be lacking. Do you know how much longer it will be before some information is released on some of the features (e.g playability, transportation, etc.)? Are you looking to do a 2008 or 2009 release? Inquiring minds want to know.

Kudos on this effort and if the game plays as nice as the screenshots are i think you have won over many hearts and minds!quote>

And its not just the screenshots that have me more excited about CU than SCS. It is the developers reading all our threads and wanting our ideas for the game.

We will get more information in October when Monte Cristo releases a CU website. There it sounds like the well give us information on features and we critique and add to their ideas.

No release date has even been mentionyet. But since they are in about their 15th month of development, I would say some where between late 08 to mid 09 for release. That is just my theory and I could be way off.

[rctshack 182]

Originally posted by: Androv hat said, I'm also buying both games when they come out (as long as my life lets me) just because I like the genre and want to give something new a try.quote>

Hopefully there will be a demo you can download first so that you don't spend $40 or $50 just to find out it really is bad. Where are all these people finding this $50 of disposable income??? People act like it's buying a bottle of water. If there are two city simulator games, I don't want to spend $100 to buy both, I would rather spend $50 to buy the one that fits me... and CU has already done that... so unless a better game comes along, CU has my vote.

[Androv 6]

Originally posted by: rctshack

Originally posted by: Androv hat said, I'm also buying both games when they come out (as long as my life lets me) just because I like the genre and want to give something new a try.quote>

Hopefully there will be a demo you can download first so that you don't spend $40 or $50 just to find out it really is bad. Where are all these people finding this $50 of disposable income??? People act like it's buying a bottle of water. If there are two city simulator games, I don't want to spend $100 to buy both, I would rather spend $50 to buy the one that fits me... and CU has already done that... so unless a better game comes along, CU has my vote.quote>

 

I would like a demo :-)   Loved the City Life Demo which is why I bought the game (and waited and waited for it).

[Romaq 18]

Concerning the money, it's timing. I'm married, no kids, and while we are trying to be careful with our budget, we have 'entertainment' as part of that budget. If SC:S and CU were coming out at the same time, NO we would not be getting both. We would be getting one game, and we might have to wait and plan it out for that. Between the two, what little I know I'd likely pick up CU and not SC:S.

But they are not coming out at the same time. SC:S is due for release around November, CU isn't due for six months after that, more or less. The games might release for $45 retail, but eventually it finds it's way on sale for $20 which is when I bought SC4 last year and Caesar IV for $20 this year. When my wife sent me for take-out food yesterday, I spent $25. Both games are not coming out in the same time-frame, and various factors may conspire to have me put off buying either game until they each drop in price from $45 to $20.

The timing of each game works in our favor.

EDIT: And thank you, Androv. At some point, I have to say, "Pie Iesu domine, dona eis requiem." and smack myself with a wooden board. (Montey Python fans know this quote from the Holy Grail... translated, it could mean, "Oh Lord Jesus, give this a rest!")

[toxicpiano 125]

THIS WILL BE EPIC.

[Mulefisk 15]

Everything that has been said and revealed so far sounds absolutely fantastic. My one wish though, is the the game isn't grid-based like sc4. The grid was without doubt the game's biggest limitation. It's not very realistic either, seeing how only certain areas of some cities, mainly American ones, have gridded roads. I know you can't tell us anything, but i'm hoping you thought of this.

[Ded 30]

How functional are the chairlifts, i wonder? I.e Do they serve a transportational purpose, or are they there to decorate the landscape?

[dasilva 3]

Thanks Mulefisk! We appreciate seeing that it pleases you ;-)

Regarding your question on non grid based game... Well, the only thing I can say so far is that City Life (our previous city builder) is not grid based at all... But I didn't say nothing, right?... :-)

Hi Ded, I can't tell much about the chairlifts now but I'll do as soon as I can on the official website or in here.

Cheers

[warrior 169]

Great, the website sounds far closer to us and lets us get closer to you than the SCS website if I may say so.

I can't wait for the website or the game, Great Job

[Ded 30]

Cripes... That was quick. It wasn't so much a question, more a point to ponder for everyone else. Part of the intrigue of this game so far lies in the fact that we know so little - certainly a city with a feel remotely like that of 'Aspen' is MUCH more then anything we've ever experienced in city sims thus far, but, that brings new questions. Does the aspen themeset (for lack of a better description) have its own unique transport system (for instance you'd find cable cars/charlifts etcetera in alpine areas far more then other areas), or is it part of the game as a whole and it suits the alpine theme. Or maybe it isn't even a transport option, but more of a wider recreation pack - that sorta thing. I guess, people often take pictures at face value, i was merely inidicating that it might not necessarily be what it appears to be.

And thanks for the speedy reply, I have no doubt that y'all are doing your best to answer our questions, and work on this game, and get the site up and running. So far, you seem to be doing a great job, and i think most people definitely appreciate the effort you're putting in.

And you should really pop into chat sometime - even if you aren't going to discuss the game (no doubt it'd pop up), you'd be amazed at how a bunch of quirky gamers can have some fascinating discussions.

[dasilva 3]

Ded, I do appear from time to time on the chat... but only when I know I have half an hour ahead free :-) You know how it is... A discussion brings another one and you can spend the night talking about your passion ;-)

[Ded 30]

Hahaha, sounds like my life story. Only these days I like to keep the passion on the "Down-low" - so to speak. I get enough "passion" studying fulltime to last me for forever, haha. But anyway, once again, just thanks. I can't wait for the website, and I don't think i mentioned how nice the latest screen-shots look - the globe AND aspen both look very picturesque, while the urban buildings definitely look spectacular - the shops on the bottom of the skyscraper are extremely suggestive, though i'm assuming that that tall building is of the residential persuasion - if so, perhaps some mixed use buildings are on the cards? I know you can't tell just yet, but i look forward to the day that you can

[KingTitan 6]

Dang!....Where have I been?. LOL I didn't see this thread before. Anyhow.....so excited about this game but, need more info.

Awesome stuff, great screen shots too. A+ work there....

But always will be a Simmer!!!!!

[mntoes 270]

Thanks for sharing all of this info and your time with us. It's so good to have at least one game to really look forward to. Can't wait for the new web site I'll be keeping a keen eye on it.

[mightygoose 92]

err i just stumbled in here......i have the forums and the stex bookmarked so i never look at the homepage.... oops.... there seems to be a great deal interaction with the fans from you phillipe, i would personally like to thank you for that, at the end of the day its not a requirement. secondly having looked at the more recent shots, the first two or three i saw upon first release, i am fantastically impressed, as i am with the planet in the omnibus article. now to my points of note.

firstly. i am aware of how little you can spoon feed us in the way of spoilers. i cannot wait for the website to be released. i am also aware that at the end of the day a game has to make money for the company. that means selling copies, not gaining devoted fans. bearing these in mind i put to you my thoughts on what i would like to see, and also some other points raised by the community in various places...

IF the game like its predecessor has no grid lot generation is a key issue. when SCS was announced there was a big knee jerk reaction in the community. part of the community started the ST1000 thread here. it was a bold idea. one that i believe will fail. it was to create our own 3D city simulation. as of now next to no implementation has been done. i personally worked on the logic side of things. having no programming knowledge but a good iterative mind i began working on the bits and bobs the game would need to remember and generate to implement some of the things that people where throwing around in the threads. we had pretty much decided on bezier handled spline based curves for roads. that idea came from trainz, a railroad simulation in full 3D. with growth and zoning being a key issue i'll get to in bit, lot generation is important. having never played city life i am unaware as to how it was done then or if infact there was growth at all like SCS. we over at UU(what the ST1000 thread turned into) [linkie] were toying with the idea of procedural lot generation. in much the same way as spore uses procedural generation for virtually everything. a seed from the system clock and a series of parameters, such as min/max spacing, density, etc. that way a single plain lot texture can be turned into a unique and bustling lot thats different everytime..... quite a specific point there, whether its relevant or even considered i don't know but i thought i'd put it out there.

zoning, first of the big three. to grow or not to grow. this was the biggest personal let down from SCS. don't get me wrong i think it is a great game but i do agree with many it does not deserve the badge simcity, thats false advertising. in sc4 your city is more your creation in terms of its alive. you goad it and train it to grow and develope they way you want it to. ok you can control how it looks on a street to street basis but, making a city that looks beautiful in region view is what does it for me. i the way i do it is if i can trick someone who knows not of simcity to  believe that my region shot, slightly photoshopped,  but  still at the same view angle,  is a  real satellite image.... im  happy. i useally ask them togues which city it is, they ask normally was it taken from space. i say yes they say cool.... a city is a lving breathing growing animal and i think ou should reflect that, zoning is great it takes things out of your hands to an extent, which is cool. if there was a way for us to customize zoning....that would be spectacular. as for how to zone without a grid. simple flood fill within roads would suffice. maybe have an eye candy dragging tool like a draggable fence/wall tool that could split up zones where no roads are..... maybe have the loft dependant on the two zones its bordering.... as for zoning subdivisions.... well. a building grows and procedurally generates a lot for the entire area.... then another building grows within it and procedurally alters the lot. i came up with a list of things a zone type would contain for UU(see above) ...you can use a zone to do all sorts... especially if these are customiseable. control of height and density, of style and type....

PARAM_ID=        #zones game ID#[parameters, fixed elements, used by program, various integer values]

PARAM_NAME=        #its name in the menu#

PARAM_ICON=        #the location of its icon file#

PARAM_COLOUR=        #the xone colouration on the ground, if its implemented#

PARAM_MAX_HEIGHT=    #max building height allowed in zone#

PARAM_GROWTH_ALLOW=    #residential,commercial office,commercial services,industrial,manufacturing, agriculture#

PARAM_STYLE_ALLOW=    #ID range from style index, 1920's art deco... etc#

PARAM_BUILDING_SPACING=    #controls density#

PARAM_BUILDING_REDEVELOPE_ALLOW=  #yes/no value or 1/0#

PARAM_ROAD_SPACING=    #controls sidewalk width#

PLOT_FLORA_ALLOW=    #ID range of props to be used in plot generaton#[plot generation fields,ID ranges]

PLOT_PEOPLE_ALLOW=    #as above but as per respective catergory#

PLOT_RES_ALLOW=        #as above but as per respective catergory#

PLOT_IND_ALLOW=        #as above but as per respective catergory#

PLOT_MAN_ALLOW=        #as above but as per respective catergory#

PLOT_CO_ALLOW=        #as above but as per respective catergory#

PLOT_CS_ALLOW=        #as above but as per respective catergory#

PLOT_SPECIAL_ALLOW=    #as above but as per respective catergory#

PLOT_TEXTURE_ALLOW=    #allowed ground textures#

MOD_PLOT_SEED=        #modifies the system clock seed to allow lot diversification#[modifiers, affect ingame supplied values and return new value]

MOD_RES_DESIREABILITY=    #affects pinpoint desireability in respective field, five values in order of wealth level#

MOD_MAN_DESIREABILITY=    #see above#

MOD_IND_DESIREABILITY=    #see above#

MOD_CO_DESIREABILITY=    #see above#

MOD_CS_DESIREABILITY=    #see above#

MOD_FIRE=        #change in risk of fire#

MOD_AIR=        #change in air pollution#

MOD_WATER=        #change in water pollution#

MOD_TOURISM=        #affects an areas ability to attract customers and big businesses#

MOD_NOISE=        #change in noise pollution#

MOD_CRIME=        #affects crime probabilities#

MOD_HEALTH=        #affects health quotient#

MOD_EDUCATION=        #affects education quotient#

as i said i only worked on logic, not on programming. but you can see the stuff relating to the zone itself, what gets built on it, the plot generation as well as the environment modifiers for topologies of desireability and pollution etc.

infrastructure infrastructure infrastructure. its seems to be the crux point of so much. definately second of the big three points that make a realistic urban simulator. transport, utilities, communications(ok dragging phone lines is abit extreme, but then again we drag water mains............). it is possible to go to far i think. i think a basic set is necessary, i know with the abscence of grid that makes things difficult, especially with model based intersections such as highway interchanges.... i think procedural is another contender here. i think it has to be. a loft is a loft and thats fine.... its just the path creation thats the problem. this would e a difficult thing to get right. rail, road, highway, subway/el rail. get those four and thatsa great start. beyond that i think water was good but power dragging was abit of a pain.... everything needed it but wanted to be miles away from the power station.... buses are a major point for debate.... just bus stops or create your own bus routes..... micro management versus realism. tbh as long as buses are there peeps will be happy.... but there is one way you can make your game a winner in terms of infrastructure......

customisation..... crux of this games 3 of 3 as the big three go. success. you havea team of 58, wonderful, we have a team of 190,000, you see my point. register and go to this place. here [linkie] is where the meaty infrastructure boffins and hardcore roadgeeks congregate and work utter magic... i reckon a building editor is pretty much mandatory in this field. i will be surprised if you don't make one. but its the rest. if you make it possible to create our own draggable netorks.... be it roads, rail, raised roads or just eye candy power lines... then you will have captivated the entire community... if we can have whatever road markings and sidewalk props/textures we want then we can never say a bad word.

you have the shiny pretty that looks awesome effect that will get people interested. good. you need to have the moderate to not that hard gameplay to make it "fun"(this is the casual gamers definition of fun)(even still not everyone buys a city builder to be frank and they usually dont mind abit of learning if they have bought it)(this post has been about the harcore urban planners definition of "fun")(so many brackets for one three letter word ). good now you will sell copies to those who are interested. then you have to have the longevity element. goals yes, think sc4 rewards.... an end no.... let the gamers build their world with tools they made themselves.

this was unfinished... 151 million souls. and this guy uses not a single maxis building. that is how you create lifelong fans. dont worry about giving us an enourmous set of buildings out the box. obviously the more the merrier. but if you can get us the tools to add new structures and also no networks and rewards and other things that allow us to make your game many orders of magnitude more diverse. and that you cant achieve with 58 people.

so really what i am asking you is rhetorical. i dont need a response, if you read thing and check out those links i will be very happy indeed.

build a game, make it pretty, make it well, but moreover, build a platform, make an editor and for gods sake make it stable

again my thanks to spending your time with us phillipe.

Yours Sincerely

Mighty Goose (¬_¬

[REASON FOR EDIT---- forgot to write my aforementioned bit about zoning]

[Orlandoedwin640 0]

I will be buying the game, it looks so real

[Sap59 3]

this games looking awesome and if its heading in the right direction of city building i will be buying it for sure.

[dasilva 3]

Hi Mighty Goose,

Thanks for sharing this long post full of an incredible set of great information.

I won't answer you and I'm sure you'll understand, as you are addressing a lot of game design points.

However, I invite you to join us in the coming official website when we'll get on any of the topics that you find interesting and are willing to share your thoughts.

Let's make it all rock! ;-)

[joeynymets 19]

Philippe, you and the people at Monte Cristo have done an excellent job on CU! Definitely a must buy for me

[Barbarossa 51]

.

  Edited September 7, 2012 by Barbarossa  

[dasilva 3]

I surely understand Barbarossa. I wouldn't buy a car by just seeing the engine only :-)

However, I'm not here to sell you the game but to sell you the idea that by participating with us in talking about the features we want to put on it, we would get a great result! ;-) SLightly different, isn't it?

[mightygoose 92]

thanks for the reply, do we have anywhere near a more specific date for the website launch???

thanks again

MG

[dasilva 3]

Not yet, I still have some issues to solve on my side. Once I get them solved, I'll communicate a date. I rather not give you some date I don't know I will be able to reach.

It'll be October for sure, so if you really need a date, I would commit today on the 30th October ;-)

But I'm sure, it'll be sooner...