Simtropolis 1000

[joerg 280]

Off to bed again for me guys. I want to hear back from scipio and others and get more opinions, so please everyone stay on topic with my last post, and rodent you seem to be doing great keeping up with this all and keeping an open mind so if you want i would love to delegate the position of secretary to you. (basically for now if you want just kind of help reiterate what others are saying and try to play mediator). We need to join under one goal, that goal being to create a game that simcity fans can enjoy for its realistic city simulation and entertaining, involved game play. Sound good guys? Can we come to an agreement on getting organized? So for now lets just set our wishlists for the game aside and start proposing ideas as to how to organize. So far I have heard multiple teams, a council, a leader (apparently me for now?, but trust me i am in no way a dictator), extra forums, and no messenger. All sound ok to me so lets try and start on these small steps. Ill be back around 5 central time tomorrow so hopefully we will have some of the ground work laid when i get off.

[onlyplace4 603]

There seems to be a growing impression reading between the lines that the forum I set up has "hijacked" this project. Nothing could be further from the truth, and that most certainly was not my intention. As a result I am thinking of closing the forum which would most certainly save me the time (which I have precious little of), bandwidth and money.

[Wraith101 0]

OK, so I have read this entire thread and I would just like to do a quick summary of what I believe should happen with a project of this type.

1. The first things that need to be done are setting up proper communication channels.

2. The first phase of any Software development is Requirement Solicitation

- Luckily, many base assumptions have already been made for us. We want to create a city building sim that stays true to the cs4 model of city building, meaning a semi-realistic and complex city design tool

Basically, this means compiling a list of everything that the entire community would want out of a game such as this

From this list, we can further define and narrow down a "complete feature list"

These can be anything from "curved roads" to "realistic exploding llama feces"!

3. The next phase is analysis of these features.

We sort and further define this list, section it up into things like "UI", "Transport", "Visual Effects", "Buildings", "Lots" etc. you get the idea.

From this we can get an idea of just what our project ideally will have as an end product.

Then we need a document that specifies the most important features that need to be implemented (things like 3/2.5/2D, no grid, pathfinding, demand. You know, the nuts and bolts of the system that will need to be of the highest priority)

4. Design

This is a major part of the project. This is where we look at our important features document and decide how these features will be implemented. Will we need a graphics engine? Will this be an object oriented or structured design? In what language should we write it? File formats? Data specifications etc.

5. Implementation

This is where the programmers start writing code, the content people start modelling, the UI people start implementing that etc.

6. Once a basic model is working, we go back to the analysis phase, and pick the next set of features to be implemented, we then go through more Design and Implementation phases until the game is complete.

NOTE: This is just a mismatch of a process I am making up as I go along. During stage 2. This process would be properly codified.

NOTE 2: I have not specified any kind of human resource management here (team of whatever)

Onto some personal suggestions now:

I suggest using Sourceforge to manage the project

I would suggest using the The GNU General Public License (GPL) found at opensource.org

This is just a basic process, what does everyone think? I know it's not perfectly clear. I will attempt to clarify my suggestion a little later.

[aking88 7]

What do you guys think about having both an horizontal and a vertical grid, think about it, we could have highways not only 4-6-8 lanes wide, but also 1-2-3 levels of them. For example. This could enable true rail over road infrastructure.

Also grids of different sizes, or, "grid in grid" / "lot in lot" so we can put smaller objects on bigger lots, such as grash cans etc, whatever, it would make not only every city and every neighbourhood but every building unique, every community within the game.

Damn we need the SC4RH sourcecode maybe we can do this?

[aking88 7]

Yes, I am from Calgary.

This idea is great. Getting a lot of traffic here.

One thing though: we might not want to include too much in the game itself. Not saying we go down to the level of SCS, but perhaps we could have more of a SC4 sort of setup. Have a basic, vanilla version of the game, then some of the additional stuff (like my idea for transit routes) could be downloadable extras. We don't want the basic version of the game to crash somebody's computer.quote>

I think this is a good thought. Lets make a basic version of the game intended to be able to be expandable on all fronts later on. Whats important is that the fundaments of the game is good. Such as the simulationparts, gameinterface, rendering...

We should look at EVE-online, its an ever expandable game and there probably will never come a sequel. Just half a year ago or so they replaced the whole graphics engine and made major upgrades. But they didnt have to release a new version. Something like this but a simcity would be awesome. forever expandeable.

[patriots_1228 51]

maybe put that big dig interchange thats been giving me nightmares in the game??

lol jk but this sounds great, i agree with wraith, i think joergg you and whoever is working on this with you should make a list and keep it private, so EA cant go sneaking around stealing ideas.

[paulvmontfort 616]

If the roads are spline based, I suggest making the on- and offramps spline based as well so you can make every interchange unique and to your own likings.

[ianpaschal 77]

Originally posted by: paulvmontfort If the roads are spline based, I suggest making the on- and offramps spline based as well so you can make every interchange unique and to your own likings.quote>

 

I totally agree.

---

On another note I would like to speak to people who belive the project has been hijacked.

It hasn't been hijacked.  Anyone is welcome and able to join the forums.  At the moment our "team" of developers isn't fully formed.

The only reason why we have another forum is that Mightgoose, Onlyplace4, and I have been proactive about this project for a long time, longer than this topic has been around.

There is not council or team as of yet.  We simply needed a new place to stretch out and organize our thoughts.  At the moment there doesn't seem to be any plan on ST to promote the project, and I don't think it really has Admin support as it seems like this is intended to be the ultimate slap in TM's face.

I would ask you all to be understanding and not cause Onlyplace4 to shut down our perfectly good forum, in favor of this mangled, dissorganized thread.

To me, it would truly be hijacked if we kept it to ourselves and made our own little private dev forum, leaving everyone else to just jabber away in this topic.  Instead, at the moment, until Onlyplace4 is forced to change it by people here, it's open to everyone.

Keep in mind that this is NOT a project for Simtropolis, which is why it needed it's own forum.  This is a project for anyone and everyone.

[Bazkur 34]

This is a wonderful, although highly ambitious, project idea. I program for a living but I've never really done anything with games/DirectX but would be more than willing to give it a try. My skills generally lay in the desktop and web development areas however I'd probably be able to help out with alogorithms for Traffic and such. Might I suggest we use a .Net language to do this? Check out "http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/game/" might be an idea. I've not messed personally but also at the bottom of that page you'll find where you can download the express editions of the 3 primary .Net language tools so that all of us is working on the same version.

Suggest:

Might I suggest (if it hasn't already) it be setup so that you can zone for your Civic buildings (schools, police, hospitals, etc...) and then these buildings can grow over time to conform with the population? I've always wanted that in SC4.

[aking88 7]

The zoning for public buildings is a good idea, at least for schools and then specificly one type of school! That would give you more political altenratives, ultra-liberal marketdrivens societies, or public schools only (more socialistic) etc.

Excuse me but whats the adress to the ST1000 forum you have setup for the project?

[ianpaschal 77]

It's http://dev.simcities.com

Anyone is welcome to join. We're looking for everyone interested in working on the project, and if you're not, don't feel obligated to join.

[Glenni 1,444]

Man... i have already started on the first building for urbs-urbis and you just complain about that mike stole joerg's idea...

don't think you'll get anything done if you keep on like this..

I hate how this community can never go along...

[SimFox 802]

Jason:

1000 triangles, right. Unfortunately it is about 900 too many... And that for such a tiny building, imagine something along the lines Bixel does! Also never mind how long it took you to model it, this is more or less irrelevant, but how long did it take to RENDER it? This is what will count in game. Basic truth is if we are to keep "realistic" appearances then it has to be done in a way similar to SC4, alternatives are limited number of models and particularly type of models (so plenty of instancing) and small viewfield. And inevitable cartoonization.

 

[Glenni 1,444]

We already did decide on the engine, Ogre, and it was going to be 2.5D (same as sc4)

only diff in modeling is real life scale, this time...

It's better than making low poly crap which also looks like crap.

[aking88 7]

Good choice with todays technological barriers.

Dont forget total functionality with mixed use buildings, no limiations on the proportions of residential and commercial mixed capacity on one building

Glenni:

Good model so far, the render got a realistic touch to it

Scipio:

Right now i doubt i can be of technical help but i can when it comes to ideas as to the populationsimulation and social science parts.

[coultharda 135]

Originally posted by: Glenni We already did decide on the engine, Ogre, and it was going to be 2.5D (same as sc4)

only diff in modeling is real life scale, this time...

It's better than making low poly crap which also looks like crap.quote>

Thing is, although it's great to see people moving on with the project, things like this are key decisions and should be made with the community.

We already did decide, suggests you few BLaM guys already involved, and suggests that you are the heads of the project, which I don't think (at least not yet) is right.

op4's happy to lead the board and design team to co-ordinate things until something can be done to community-decide the leaders of the project and then decide the people  involved.

This needs as many people behind it as we can get, and a small group of people, taking it on themselves to make key early decisions could alienate many.

[Glenni 1,444]

That's what i think too, i DON'T want this to be a BLaM & Friends project, i want anyone in this community who is willing and got the skills to do it, to take part in this!

[coultharda 135]

Then is this choice of engine (Ogre) just an idea? I'm not even sure, although it's been debated we have decided on the 3D or 2.5D or any other of the key matters.

Whils it is important to get things under way, this project will most likely take years, and we can't afford to rush the early decisions just to get started on the main part of the project.

[Simfan34 11]

n order to have potential companies sponsor us, they expect a wide audience. I mean, if I was going to buy a cola, I probably would still buy Pepsi even if I saw a Coke ad in-game. Therefore, they really cannot have me as the only player of the game

Educational Value:

SimCity has always been considered educational. It is used in many schools. Simtropolis 1000 should be no different. The main value is city building, but other values have been present all along. One of these values is fiscal responsibility, a good real-life application. SimCity's monetary system is basically a person's finances on a bigger scale. For example:

Taxes = Personal Income

Expenses = Money gone to taxes

Parks & Monuments = Leisure

Loans = Loans

This goes to show one of many values beside city management present in SimCity. Now, advertising in schools is to be rather ineffective (that is why we must get vegetable and fruit growers to advertise!), but we must "market" this game to parents. SC4 is addictive (just ask my dad), so imagine how happy parents would be seeing their kids finally enjoying an educational game! It also does help that the parents are more likely to buy their children Wendy's (a US burger chain) after the kids saw it in game, and making our sponsors happy they invested in this game.

An idea is to make a later "educational version" which is a bit less complex, lacks disasters, and other modifications. This would be targeted toward schools/parents

The Game of Civil Servants?:

Another possibility is that Simtropolis 1000 could be used to give future/potential civil servants such as mayors, aldermen, etc., a preliminary test of what their job might be like. Things like how to balance the budget, provide services, and keep people happy.

[Lord Kronos 0]

Then Glenni, you and everyone else involved needs to stop stating things as fact what isn't. these things need to be decided by a community, with the ability to read all the arguments. not by friends in an MSN chat.

coultharda, I'd like to say that no decisions have been made, but some people on this board feel that there have been.

We really need to be following the directions set out in a few previous posts, involving identifying the goals we have for the first release of the program.

We also need to remember that it isn't the graphics that make the game so fantastic for us as city builders, it's the simulation, and unless we create a good simulation engine, all the best graphics in the world is not going to make this a success.

[mightygoose 92]

i am not trying to hijack i merely think we need to decide some key things fast to keep momentum with the project. anyway using all the suggestions and ideas as well as limitations. here is what i reckon could work.... obvisouly this isnt everything but i reckon its a pretty good start,...

copy pasted from notepad :

as far as i can see....

way i see it.... looking at the ideas in this thread and maintaining a reasonable system

these ideas are not my own in fact ive mainly expanded upon and developed ideas in this thread.

achieveable goals...

2x2m grid..

9 views....

8 compass points and a top down view.

you custom zone neighbourhoods of anysize. basically you would start with a large terraformed/whatever city area. then you zone neighbourhoods of different shapes and sizes. for actually working and growing the city only th neighbourhood is rendered fully. the rest of the city is rendered in B&W in ultra low poly models. maybe even just the ground map.... the city still runs and developement still occurs but it saves on processing power. when you want to then browse our city. you exit the Editor menus and render the enitre city max detail. things cannot be changed but you can take photos to your hearts content. as you fill the city provided it can be expanded and new neighbourhoods added.

neighbourhoods..

these would be effectivly city tiles in themselves.... height limits, zoning type and density factors can be selected.. also style of architecture and maybe even something like a hotspot feature.. you want this are to redevelope for a small budget amount you can promote growth in any three neighbourhoods city wide.

rest of city...

using the active but reduced method (ABR) of displaying the rest of the city it allows for utilities to have much greater radiuses in fact hospitals built could have selected neighbourhoods as patient catechment areas(on second thoughts more applicable for schools).... global budgeting of amenities etc... neighbourhoods also allows any player to have huge cities.... with small rural settings larger neighbourhoods may be preferable when processing power is not an issue, and in the busy downtowns, maybe neihgbourhoods of only a few city blocks could be used. also small neighbourhoods for chinatowns etc.

growth

as you zone for use buildings can grow on the zone. the zone then auto covers with a texture until another building grows in the same zone. with density controlls you could have it based on buildings per unit area so no w2w would grow in lower density stuff. or even job capacity/ residents per unit area. using this open zoning technique a multitude of possibilities occur. i propose building models having few or no props but instead this is handled elsewhere...

transport...

it seems spline based roads are the general consesus. a step on top of this i would say is having roads open lot as well. so an avenues median could have a pedmall dragged down it to create a pedestrian walkway. there would be many many types of spline networks. i propose pedestrianism to be taken as a much larger base. ie if you draw a road... a basic curb appears... then sidewalks are drawn in manually/ if you want... it can auto sidewalk but you can extend them to all angles over and into zones. ie a sidewalk could continue straight after a road turn to create a pedestrian street with shops on it. obviously with this open zoning overides and priority orders would need to be considered.

pathing....

could work on a circuit like basis... to save easy of compute group commuters in 10's, coming from zones as a whole... like say there is a large housing estate... one arrow base... that splits... as for the circuit. there are no commuters unless there is a suitable job and a valid route A-B, intersections and traffic act like resistors lengthening commutes and better links creating shorter commutes...

traffic...

work on a more intuitive basis.... have per lane capacity based on vehicle size.... you may get 10,000 cars per day at full capacity but im damn sure you wouldnt have same flow with 10,000 lorries. again instead of creating time penalties have speed penalties on busy stretches of road instead...

props.... majority of props for city would be part of the in game lot generation process... dependant on type of zone and also on sidewalks/ road. landmarks could perhaps have their own unique lotting code so there area is different to rest. this allows for better ground continuity....

anyway i think thatis pretty much it for now.... what do you guys reckon

[aking88 7]

Il read that later MG as i pretty fast browsed through it. i urge the developers to look at thte future of simcity discussionthread and pic the important parts which has bugged us in SC4RH for different reasons (such as limiatations to the number of transitnetworks, and limitations for creating tunnels/transit over transit) or which are highly requested.

[munchkin5 0]

If the project is going to move along, i'd lock this and use the forum only, so as to avoid confusion.

[ianpaschal 77]

^^ Indeed

[Lord Kronos 0]

indeed we should NOT do this. As it would further alienate a group feeling alienated already.

Well done MightyGoose on gathering some of the suggestions already made here, and placing it together!

What we really need to decide is what is more important to us? the graphics or the simulation?

LK

[Alakazam 3]

I think a 2.5D engine will be fine. Seriously, does 3D is all that important?

[+Guest]

Glenni OMG is that the first SC5 building?

[patriots_1228 51]

no

sc5 buildings are crap. ST1000(or whatever its called) buildings are special

[topcliff 1]

I think this project is a great endeavor, and this site had started another version of the first SC a while ago. Now, I know that right now, your main focus is toward programming and technical development. But, my area of expertise is in writing. Real writing. Books, poetry, essays, etc. I say that if this project works, someone has to name and identify everything, from buildings to the tools we use in-game. When we do happen to get to that point, I would be all but willing to help. Trust me, I've been published twice in a national anthology of poetry. TopCliff

[xiziz 11]

This sounds really neat Joerg, il read through it all tomorrow when i have a little more time to spare.

But if its kept open source, it will live on more or less forever, since changing this is up to whoever wants to/is able to, this is one of the best things Sim City could possibly get, since we have, since sc2k shown the communitys will to prolong and modify the game. Just imagine beeing able to change ANYTHING, from what lots you have to which 3d engine your using.

That said, Open Source can be sold aswell, most Linux versions are availible for purchase, and free download. you get a little more than just the game in the box, you can get a good manual and whatever else if you purchase it.

If i understand correctly, the idea is to have a game that essentially just reads in loads of coustom content, so you yourself, via plugins deside exactly what roads you want and dont want, which zones you have.