Simtropolis 1000

[joerg 278]

I dont know about the rest of you, but looking at what we have seen so far from SCS makes me believe that there is no reason to continue following its development.  The game doesnt appear to have a single feature we have all been wanting.

So I present you guys with my proposal, this is going to be fairly long so bare with me.

Ill start with the games basic concept.

-No more regions, but instead a tile system much like the trainz series uses.  For those not familiar you basically start with one tile and when you fill it up you simply go to the edge of the map and add another and keep going like this.  This will provide us as the developers with the easiest and most effective means of making a massive city simulation.

-Full 3d, for the sake of fast development and custom content creation the game needs to be built in full 3d.  Sure 3d has ruined a vast amount of sim like games, but i feel we can create something worth while. Look at games like Trainz, Flight Sim, and many others to see good examples of what 3d gaming is capable of with decent textures and rendering.  For those fearing the need for enormous computing power I propose we use a hybrid of the current sc4 system and flight simulator.  This basically means there will be a field of view component to the game so buildings, trees and automata x distance from the camera will fade out. Furthermore buildings could have 2 models created for them one complex and one a simple lod much like we have now, the lods could be auto constructed and rendered very quickly much like they are rendered now but with side and top camera angles instead of iso metric.

                   ( To elaborate a bit more the simple lods could basically be 6 sided objects and each side could be rendered out in max and then mapped as a texture to that side.  This would create a very simplistic structure, but it would only be for max zoom distance and when something is far off in the distance.)

-Stick with a grid, but make it much much smaller.  Two huge problems arise from using a grid, first roads are limited to only a few basic angles, and second scale is limited by the grid size. 

Going with a smaller grid like 1 square = 1 meter would mean that networks could have far more complex paths, the best example of this is if you go into paint and you draw something on a document that is 10x10 pixels and then zoom in it looks jagged, if you draw the same thing on a 100x100 pixel image it will look much smoother when you zoom in.  Drawing roads could follow the same principal.  Infact with the ability to go full 3d we could simply do roads as paths and say that this path fills (X) tiles.

Using smaller tiles presents us with a small hurdle though. what in the world can we use to fill in all the empty squares that are left next to diagnol paths (transit networks)?  The answer is rather simple.... Filler Tiles.  As city builders we are constantly manually placing parking lots and empty grass tiles and things to take up this extra space where there simply isnt room for a large building.  Well guess what if we divided a normal sc4 grid into 1 meter squares we would have another 256 squares in every sc4 tile.  Now lets say a path cut through this tile and used about 200 of these squares.  We could easilly tell the game to fill the tile with filler squares that are designed to match the zone they are placed in.  For example low density res would simply use grass or bushes, and industrial could use parking or barrels.

-Zoning needs to be improved, but the complexity of writing code that deals with the way zones work and everything seems staggering, but this is my proposal.  Lets simplify zoning basically no more individual zones but instead one massive zone that buildings place them selves in according to a set of rules.

So basically it would work like this you lay down a road network and pull out your zoning tool, the tool would have 2 options fill much like a paint bucket in ms paint or photoshop works, and normal grid based zoning.  Lets say you use fill and you just fill in an area defined by 4 roads.  Now the game has this basic blob of zone with no predetermined lots.  The game can now start applying rules to fill in this area.

Rules like:

   -Buildings must face a road and be no more than (X) tiles from a road or pedestrian side walk

   -Buildings must first attempt to fill a zone starting from the corner so as to leave room for other buildings.

   -Filler tiles can grow after buildings have been put in place

   -Parking lot filler tile can only grow in (X) zones, must be directly adjacent to another parking tile or a road.

   -Other filler tiles could all have their own sets of rules and such.

-Automata is very important and keeps the game from simply being a plopable art project.  Transity automata kills sc4s performance becuase it basically trys to determine a path for ever single sim to take on their way to work.  So we need to develope a new method and cut that number of computations down dramatically.  So my proposal is a heirarchy system.  Basically at the street level paths are drawn for every sim until they reach a major artery, then a path is predetermined for every sim entering that artery this cuts the numbers down tremendously.  Sims will also be programmed to move up the heirarchy as they commute so they should choose to leave their house by street then switch to road then avenue then highway as soon as possible.  Each transition from one level to the next will automattically contain a set of paths for that sim to take to the next transition.

So basically the sim leaves his or her house and they are immediately given the path to the transition from street to road, then once they hit road they are given the path from road to avenue and one they hit avenue they are given the path from avenue to highway and then in reverse as they close in on a destination.  Each destination and each transition would have its own unique ID and transit paths would map those IDs

So from a coding stand point it would work like this.  Sim lives at desination 1011 and works at 2032 so the game says alright which path file contains 1011 it then gives the sim the path and simply builds upon that path by transitioning to other paths until it reaches a path that contains 2032.

I know that sounds incredibly complicated but the jist of things is that path files would be drawn before sims ever need them and the game would never need to calculate paths for individual sims but rather the network as a whole.

-Finally the physics could be as simple or as complex as we want, we could in theory create weather and land slides and everything we could possibly dream of, but for the time being im guessing simple physics would be best, things like running water, and gravity.

Alright so i know this is all a huge huge undertaking, but these are just suggestions and the culmination of years of wish listing for new sim cities.  The point is we can do this, the ideas are programable and the basic ground work i am setting forth would give us the abilties to do all the things we have been wanting for so long.

So the trick is getting the ball rolling and formulating a plan of action.

I propose we start with 3 teams, first team will be programmers (the area i have no expertise in), second team will work closest to the programmers and be our logic team, these guys will come up with the numbers that the programers can work around, finally a content creation team, these guys will make 3d content and textures and just pretty much everything and just keep doing it until the coders are done.  The basic idea is that all 3 teams can work simutaneously becuase we will make the program as open source as possible so all the models we make in max can be directly imported to the game as the coding continues.

I dont know what level of participation i could take in this project but i am willing to work my but off creating content and working with programmers and other team members trying to keep the ball rolling.

I honestly think we have a shot at this, and with a bit of commitment and talent we can destroy SCS.  I dont ever want to charge for a game like this, but donations could help out as im sure we all have real jobs and things to so our time would be valuable.  100 people donating 10 bucks could buy a computer built to do nothing but render models.  or 1000 people donating 10 bucks could pay for the web traffic of downloading this game.  I see simtropolis as a great place to build from and the perfect name for such a project.

To all those saying SC4 is good enough, I ask you if you would like to have true running water? The ability to develope massive cities with no need for exiting back to region, full 3d abilities like walking in a city or even driving, real physics, direct 3d import of bats, free drawn roads and highways, the abiltiy to add new networks without overwriting old ones, and the abilty to say hey EA we are sooooo much better than you.

 

[Cockatoo 2,256]

Well this sounds alot better than all the stuff I've been hearing about SCS...

I'd love to see this plan put into action

[ilikehotdogsalot 307]

wow, this is certainly an interesting project, and a very daring one at that!

i do wish you best of luck with greating a team, with all the brilliant minds in this site, i'm sure this new game will be great!

i don't know much about modding, batting, lotting, anything at all, but if you need some inputs, i'm a PM away!

really looking forward to see how this will turn out!

[IonWind 3]

You have nice ideas and of course at this moment most of the hardcore SC-fans are maybe thinking the same thing, to create an own city simulator. I just wonder, if we'd begun now, when would the game be at least playable?

This just reminded me about this Finnish group that decided to make an own movie, it took 7 years with voluntary workforce. I mean now the movie Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning. (It's downloadable and free btw.) Now an another sci-fi movie is in the making from them.

How many members of Simtropolis would be willing to throw their free time for developing a new game, even if it would take several years? I'm sure that at some point there would be moments when many would think "this won't never be finished"

Should this project get forward, I'd sure give my share for it

[Superstar 69]

Your idea sounds tempting. Yet I wonder if such a project is even possible to complete. Makes me wonder if we have the knowledge and resources to actually develope a city simulating game at the level that you are suggesting.

I personally like the idea of creating a game in which we define our own rules, not necessaraly as an act againts Simcity Societies. I just have doubts about how successful such a project would turn out to be. Although such a develpment offers an immense amount of freedom, I don't know whether people would spend their time working on it, rather than improving SC4 with custom content. If such a project is initiated, I would seriously consider helping out with custom content.

[rodent1989 9]

Why don't we push EA to pen the source code to SC4?  This is in bold because this is a long post where my best suggestion comes first in the list.  I'm not experienced, but I know that having a complete platform to start from would simplify things greatly.  I've been in this community for a long time, so I'm all ears and will watch this thread closely and will offer suggestions.

Your idea of splitting the tiles up is good, but maybe excesive.

we should break the tiles into quarters, then one lane of traffic=one tile

1-way road=1 tiles (multiple placed side by side for more lanes)

2-way road=2tiles

2-way road w/center turn lane=3 tiles

Avenue=5 tiles (2 lanes each direction with center as ploppable median)

Avenue w/GLR or ELrail= 6 tiles (two lanes each direction plus rails going each direction)

Highway=7 tiles (3 lanes each direction with center as ploppable median)

Bus 1x2

Sub 1x2

Big sub 2x2

Rail (network) 2 tiles wide

El-rail 2 tiles wide

GLR 2 tiles wide

Now to deal with the curves and gridding:

I've always been a very graphical person and anyone who's taken algebra will understand that the slope of a line is based on a grid (rise/run)  in SC4 there were four possible slopes of networks:

0 (left/right)

undefined (up/down)

1(lower left/upper right)

-1(lower right/upper left)

How difficult would it a more flexible but still grid based system?  Simply click point A and click point B and a road is drawn between them (essentially ignoring the grid) then in the immediate area around it a grid is "projected." this would create a "local grid" that is based on the road originally drawn.  Now, when you zone everything will align o the local grid and will sit flush with the network.  Now in a perfect world, a player could have these local grids overlap each other so that he could select which grid he wanted to play with by selecting the network that projects it.  If that didnt make sense, or if its impossible please let me know.

Unfortunately I have virtually no experience with any "under the covers" software developing.

As far as the name, why not simply call it Simtropolis?

[joerg 278]

I know this seems huge guys, but the sooner we start and get motivated the sooner we have a new game.  I honesty couldnt tell you how long something like this could take to create, but the good news is if we create a modular system like im proposing a barebones game with zones and one or two networks could be released first for testing and such, and once the games structure is in place things like networks and buldings and filler tiles and texture packs would start flowing in by the hundreds.  The great thing is that with our own game we can design it around the abilty to mod it later.

So my best guess at a playable game is a year.

You ask the question of why would people pull away from modding sc4 to create this game?  Well its simple really people mod and create because thats what we love to do, personally for me half the fun is making the building, so heck making buildings for this new game would be tons of fun to me, and im gambling that with the promise of something this amazing as an end result alot of others might agree.

The problem with trying to get the source code from EA is that they simply will not ever relinquish such code.  Source code is very very valuable, and im sure if EA could gurantee that we would never make money off of the code then they would be more than happy to give it up, but the problem is once the source is out any other developer could pick it up and run with it.  Furthermore even with the source we would still be stuck with the same basic rules we have now.

Oh and rodent you have the right idea, but in all reality going to a quarters system wouldnt help much, currently a road in sc4 is 16 meters accross or roughly 50 feet this is nearly double what a typical street is, going to a quarter system would allow us slightly more flexibility in making more curvy roads but it wouldnt help scale one bit becuase roads are somewhere between 1/2 of a tile and 1 full sc4 tile.  With a 1 meter = one square system if a transit system in real life is 11 meters wide then in the game it can be 11 meters wide.  The great news is adding more grid squares should not effect performance or complexity especially with the zoning system im proposing.

For anyone cheering this on and simply hoping the project gets underway, i have but one thing to say to you, you guys rock you really do and while you may lack the talents nessecary to help out with the games development, you could do wonders by spreading the word.  WE NEED PROGRAMERS DESPERATELY.  Lol Simtropolis has an abundance of artists that could throw together enough content for the game in a matter of months, but we need to code a basic structure first and i just dont have to means to do that.  I know people that might be willing to help though and it could be that if we want something like this to happen we might have to pony up a little cash.  I dont know about the rest of you but i would much rather spend 50 bucks on a game like this than what ive seen so far of SCS.

[rodent1989 9]

If this is ever going to work we need to lay down some framework right now, and by that I mean leadership.

First off, My name is David, I havn't really been a vocal member here on ST but I've been around for a while.  I would love to be involved in this project, but as stated above I have no practical skills to offer, however I know how to organize people and that's going to be the hardest part.

We need 2-3 people who are willing to be the dictators.  They need to be able to access everything, they need master contact lists and they need to be treated as though they have true authority.  I'm not sure who those people are/should be, but I gaurentee they're among us.

As I said before we kinda need that source code.  I think it would be a huge first step.

A huge second step would be talking to the folks over at SimMars.  They've been trying to make their own game for as long as I can remember.  We need them either to be on board or willing to help us.

Blahdy seems to know everything you'd ever need to know about transportation.

The sooner we get some talented "Celebrity" names on board the quicker this thing will grow.

We may eventually need access to computers (as joerg stated above) as well as servers and other technical equipment.  If anyone has retail kookups that can get discouned/cheap/free stuff we need to know about it.

LETS GET THE SOURCE CODE FROM EA.  I'll keep saying it over and over.  I don't kow what it will take but I think if we have it it will shorten the time taken to get the basic engine running.  We can use the vanilla SC4 engine to build everything else on top of it.

Last but not least everyone needs to be willing to give up their e-mail address, AIM screename, and first name so that we can contact each other and be on a "first name basis".

(PS we need a sexy logo too)

[ssfsx17 0]

First of all, we should see if we can get any grants from any universities, real estate corporations, government agencies, or think tanks out there. I'm sure they are interested in having good software for simulating cities. For example, Mobility (http://www.mobility-online.de/en/informations/generalinformation.html) had two non-game-company backers.

Secondly, getting the source code for SC4 would definitely be nice. A good example of how a strong fan community can really make good use of source code is the Jagged Alliance 1.13 project (http://ja2v113.schtuff.com/) which has done quite a bit more than simply fix some bugs.

[BobbyBuilds 2]

Originally posted by: *****atoo-210893 Well this sounds alot better than all the stuff I've been hearing about SCS...

I'd love to see this plan put into actionquote>

I second.

[MINIggy03 227]

I doubt we'd have the man power to pull it off, but just a thought...Aren't all custom Simcity 4 buildings made in 3D? can't you just design the game around being able to handle SC4 lots?

And Rodent is on the right track on how to start this mammoth of a project...start simple.

[rodent1989 9]

I'm not sure we could tag this as a viable corporate investment.  However we could land a grant from them because its "educational" for us to learn how to do all this programming.  Perhaps we could also put BAT's of real world businesses in the game for donations/grants.

For example Best Buy submits a model of their typical retail outlet along with a donation of a computer.  They get free in-game advertising, we get free stuff.

We could let EA have a "Madden '08" stadium in the game in exchange for the source code.

I'm not sure how many corporations would go for it, but these are the kinds of suggestions we need ssfsx17 keep it up!

MINIggy03:  I think the source code would be a huge step forward in that process

EDIT:  Could we use the 3d imaging system from Google earth, only replace the real cities with fictional ones?  Essentially have SC4 export a file that Google earth would be able to read and think is a real city?

[Hamish 1,369]

This sounds like a fantastic idea, and im really hoping that this does get underway. But the first thing that I would want to know is, would it be posible to also make it Mac compatible. I dont know how you would do this but you could start out with no exe instalers that would make it work, probibly. If you want to talk to the more experienced mac users on simtropolis. Secondly, would we have to pay for the game. I might be able to donate to this when it gets started, but if we then have to pay for the game it might not make it so appeling. Also, would we have to download the game, easy if you have broadband but the other dial-up users might take them hours, and how big do you expect it to be because im thinking 2 gigs or more. That might be hard to download because of its size. And the asking EA idea might be good, but they might not realy be the people that most of us realy want to talk to right now. If you need programers ask Dirk if you can get this thread posted on the front page, that will attract more poeple to the cause. Good luck, I hope that my suggestions will help, expecially the mac compatibility, I would be dissipointed to see it windows only. Hope this gets under way I'll be looking forward to seeing ths get started.

[david1314 44]

EDIT: BREAK FROM THE GRID - This is the biggest limitation to SC4.  Since a full 3d environment means a decrease in detail, if the grid is maintained it is a REGRESSION.

I think a huge part of this should be more customizable.

First off, have scaler variables that users can customize. Things like aspect ratio (a scaler along the z-axis) to correct for any screen resolution.

Also, I think breaking from the grid is a necessity. Spline roads are certainly needed. To accomidate this, w2w buildings should conform to a distortion of the front or back so that a curve appearance could be generated.

And Mesh terrain. I really quite like the terrain and spline system that came with Auran's Trainz. A straight copy of this would be ideal. Perhaps a few 'puzzle peices' (that don't crash the game ) for fillers like bridges, but that do not 'reserve tiles'.

In a full 3d environment, the move should be made to LOD conflicts rather than tile conflicts. i.e. a viaduct can be built over existing buildings so long as the LODs fit together. It would certainly be cool to have the seedy districts that develop under highways, and even have roads overhang a house...(or go through a hole in a building, but one that is not limited to one network type).

Fully customizable zoning regulations. So users can have max/min density (in people/ 100m^2), minimum/maximum fire clearance or side yard (to prohibit w2w or enforce it), mixed use zoning, height max/min, customizable years ('epochs') in addition to customizable styles.

Customizable roads with 'right of ways' (areas of private property that may not be built on for future street expansion)...

Each tool should be fully customizable and have easy to access user presets, and come with a set of game presets similar to sc4.

I'm willing to help with the algorithem portion of this, but my knowledge of any actual langue is quite limited; and frankly, 3d environments scare me. I'm willing to learn programming stuff to help with this for the non-graphical stuff...I understand it conceptually, so it's quite simple for me with reference books.

As for a specific 3d engine, what about Auran Jet (or what ever their most recent incarnation is).  This would be ideal for the above.

http://www.auran.com/

[rodent1989 9]

At least half of what you said, made sense to me.  Which means this thing is probably taking off all right.  The thing about having the source code is that it would allow virtually limitless possibilites for modding and updating later on.

Also, as I sit here and type on my macbook, I can't believe the first thing out of my mouth wasn't "mac compatible."  So lets talk to the SimMars people and the Mac Forum people too.

[david1314 44]

The auran Jet link is a bit tough to find

http://www.auran.com/jet/overview.htm

[Hamish 1,369]

Also, as I sit here and type on my macbook, I can't believe the first thing out of my mouth wasn't "mac compatible." So lets talk to the SimMars people and the Mac Forum people too.quote>

yes, thats a great idea. SimMars and the Mac Forum people will know what to do with this.

[rodent1989 9]

I just posted in both the SimMars forum nd the MacForum.  Lets hope that they decide to at least check this out.

[megastad 3]

This is a great idea !!!!!
at last some good news this week 

You have my support.

[bewilder2 2]

I love this idea. I suggest that this thread get stickied.

My biggest concern: programmers. They are the lifeblood of a project, and you need enough that a core few don't get overwhelmed.

I for one don't have any real talents to contribute, unfortunately.

[joerg 278]

Lot Content files

Lot Header

                Type (Building, Filler, Transit, Other?)

                                Class (Industrial, Resource Extraction, Civic, Entertainment, Retail, Office, Residential,

Parks)

                                                Height Restriction (house, low rise, mid rise, high rise, no limits)

                Purpose

                                Automata effects (Heath, pollution, crime, happieness)

                                Population capacity (res only)

                                Jobs (everything else)

                                Special Purposes (airports, police stations, hospital, ect)

                Lot generation rule file

                                Distance from (X) transit network (how far an object can be from a network)

                                Lot cost if any (cost to the player if the lot gets built, lots could come up as proposals to

                             the mayor)

                                Acceptable adjacent lot types (can the lot be grown next to X lot)

                                Tiles needed for lot (basically the lot size would be a value like 10x20)

                                Other things like pollution, water, electric, land value and tons of other things.

3D Content files

IDs for all content needed for lot (3d files could be ID’d like 3D00012793 or something)

Item location on lot (simple x,y,z)

Lot controller item (most importance 3d object on lot, aka the building usually)

Lot LOD

                Basically an invisible shield that prevents other items from intersecting with the lot very important for transit stuff.

Building Lod

                Basically the Building lod would be a box with a texture of the building on all 6 sides and would be the only visible item on the lot at X zoom distance, or X distance from camera, further more like in SC4 the LOD would define all physical relationships with the game, including things like collisions and such.  Any 3d object could have a lod if you wanted it to show up in the furthest zooms, but for the sake of performace only larger important objects should be lodded.

Lot Gui

                                Lots would have a UI file lots of expanding to do here

                Lot Menu placement and main game UI relationship

File Components for lot could be like a .zip file but we could call it a .lot

                Lot Header (Mandatory)

                3D Components (can be optionally included sort of like as if the lot file were a zip file)

                3D Building LOD tag

                UI

                Other dependencies if needed

Sorry for the formatting but its from word, should be a basic lot break down.

And wow is this thread taking off.

I like the 3D lod intersecting idea, and added it.

I would be willing to dictate (heheh inserts evil laugh) for awhile.

First item on my agenda is pettition dirk for some place to discuss this new game if their is community interest

Next would be to have people apply for positions, i want resumes, becuase while i doubt no ones commitment to the project we all want a high quality game and to get that we need talented people.

Finally fill the positions with the most qualified individuals, but make sure everyone has a part in it.

Mass team meeting to decide where to go from there.

Finally i just want to reiterate my disagreement with the fact that the source code would do us little good, simply breaking that much source down would be darn near impossible, not to mention the game lacks extensive 3d support.  Furthermore the code is extremely ineficient and with the content we will be adding it would choke a computer.

As far as dropping the grid goes, its simply impossible to do.  Everything digital has a grid at some level, look closely at your monitor it is a grid, the point is we can do spline type stuff and have a grid, this gives us the abilty to create custom lots and rule files for lots and still allow the game to peice things together for us.  But we as players get the benefits of a more detailed grid, like the ability to make use of the extra space along transit tiles, and the ability to make detailed transit tiles that can follow spline like paths.

 

                               

[cphcity 0]

I haven't been active on this board, but this idea is fantastic, and i would gladly help later in the process.

I do not think it will be hard to get programmers. Isn't 170.000 people registered here? And, there is a TON of open-source stuff going on right now on the internet, it's flooding, with really really great non-commercial open source stuff. Sure someone will help with this, i may know someone. And i will come back i they are interrested.

Another thing: i think all the proposals are great! except one, the "commercial thing", for example let EA have a stadium in the game in exchange for money for development, bwah... that would be SOOOOoo wrong. Sorry to say, but let the users , the people set the agenda. Let us show that we can bash EA, and be independent of commercial interrests. Don't let the mass industry (EA), dictate what has to be done!

[zzsim 3]

I like the sound of this project, and though I don't have programming or modeling skills to contribute (though I would be willing to learn as this cause sounds worth the effort), I hope that I can support this in some way. I'm sure something we will need is testers for this that will be willing to test every aspect of the game at various stages of developement and report any bugs or issues, which I (and I'm sure plenty of other people here) would be willing to do. Right now, though the greatest challenge I see for this game to get off the ground is creating the actual programming itself. Once we have a solid program to act as a foundation for the game, we shouldn't have any problem getting the content to fill it with thanks to the large and devoted BATing community on this site who could start to create the actual game models as soon as some of the basic code is finalized (mainly dealing with the 3d aspect and how the buildings will react to the off the grid road system). Good luck, hopefully we can get the support of some of the big name BATers/MODers in the community to as you said get the ball rolling.

On a side note concerning using the source code from SC4, while I don't mean to propose illegal activities, wouldn't it be possible to hack into the code we already have with our retail versions of SC4? All of the source code needed to run the game must come with it, so what we are looking for is already right on our computers, we just need a way to access/modify it.

Edit:  I think an important aspect of the modeling of the 3d game buildings is that the current BAT models need to be able to be imported (with some modifications of course) into the new game.   We already have a ton of custom content for SC4, and if we can find a way to implement it in this new project, a lot of the modeling work would be done.

[Hamish 1,369]

The auran Jet link is a bit tough to find

http://www.auran.com/jet/overview.htmquote>

This looks like a good start as to what should be used. But im just wondering, if we used this would it able to import custom content.

[Glenni 1,444]

If this is possible, i am SO going to support this! ST the game V1, HELL YEAH!!!!!

[Hamish 1,369]

Someone should make a reference to this over at sc4devotion to link them back to this. It would be a boost to get the people over there. I would but im not to familiar with sc4devotion.

[david1314 44]

Originally posted by: hamish

The auran Jet link is a bit tough to find

http://www.auran.com/jet/overview.htmquote>

This looks like a good start as to what should be used. But im just wondering, if we used this would it able to import custom content.quote>

*giggles*

The system is totally reliant on plugin-based content.  Not only will we have it, we MUST have it.

It uses a 3dsmax export for visual models....bones included for anyone who's ever tweaked with creature design.  And a full range of other features.  Since it's a 3d environment, no reason not to exploit this.  (building side sign/awnisngs, variable splines networks)...Also mandates a solution to the programing language problem with C++.

But anyway, yes, we will be reliant on the same tools for custom content, though the rules will change drastically to accomidate a 3-d environment (meaning no easy upgrades of sc4 material)

Everything in the environment is external, so asside from ai behavior, camera/views, the mesh and spline system, game physics, and game-side varriables that are neglected to have user acces, there is little that is actually hard programed and inaccessible.

By necessity, disasters, textures, water behavior, transport types/networks, 'automata', 'sims', etc would be totally external.

BTW, a tool could be included for pedestrian access...so realistic trans-park commute can be made by pedestrians....oh getting away from teh grid will be SOOOO cool!!!!!

[joerg 278]

Thanks again for all the support guys, this thread is just exploding.

To answer a few more questions, models already made for bat are more than likely going to be to detailed to import into this game, the reason being is that if the game is full 3d then we need simpler models to make this work.

Dont fear though guys simpler models doesnt mean they have to look like SCS it just means that we need to be more economical with our polly counts. A typical bat could have a million pollys but only need 10,000 to get the job done but becuase we were converting it to a basic image we never cared, but with a 3d game polly count is important. No worries though it just means creating bats can be faster as long as we learn to make good textures.

Lastly the engine we use to render this thing in realtime will likely be the end all be all of how the buildings look, take a look at GTA 4 and tell me that doesnt look amazing, but the coolest part is buildings in that game are extremely low polly, but they look beautiful becuase of how they are rendered.

[Hamish 1,369]

The system is totally reliant on plugin-based content. Not only will we have it, we MUST have itquote>

Ok well then this does sound like the perfect system to use, but this relates back to another question I asked before, will that system be Mac compatable?

Lastly the engine we use to render this thing in realtime will likely be the end all be all of how the buildings look, take a look at GTA 4 and tell me that doesnt look amazing, but the coolest part is buildings in that game are extremely low polly, but they look beautiful becuase of how they are rendered.quote>

well if we can get the buildings to render to look like that I think we would have to start our own company, but if we can get them to look half as good then we will realy have a good looking game.

[megastad 3]

Open souce mean you will get no money out of it, I understand that's not the goal.
But you will need some money for some things.

The mod team from Forgotten Hope a total modification of Battlefield 2 have a solution:
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You could build buildings with company names on it and ask money for that.
Or the builing itself is the headoffice of a company.

Forgotten Hope has this solution:


<http://forgottenhope.filefront.com/main.php?module=archives&selectedmonth=4&selectedyear=2007〈=english>