Simtropolis 1000

[david1314 44]

Originally posted by: hamsterTK ^^^

maybe there should be 2 boards, one for the public to read announcements and comment about the project, and a private one for team members to collaborate in peace?

Im with ya, you guys are going to need a place to talk that doesnt get filled with 200 requests every second. But what about keeping the community and potential contributors in the loop? there should be a place for that

because I cant do much at first, but I sure as hell want to read every single post related to thisquote>

Yeah, the point is not to shield people from what's going on;  It's to shield whoever's developing it from tons of pages of requests that aren't specifically pointed towards the game at hand.

I see no reason why it couldn't just be visible but have limited post permissions...or a duplicate post in a public place.  It's just very hard to work through hundreds of posts to find the 3 you need to reference....

[LivingInThePast 364]

My 2

[Dezz 0]

I'm a lurker for years now (yeah, it's a shame...), but i really, really, really like this idea! I just saw the screenshots for SCS and I was really shocked, so I'm happy there are people with this idea

btw. I'm willing to pay for the game.

[dev 47]

Well, remember this folks, if you sell it and try to make money, you can't clone SimCity, that's called plagiarism.

Something else, again I ask, who gets the money? All the creators? Who will distribute it? Etc.

This needs to be a free download game.

Something else, who makes the decisions? Who decides whether there is or isn't a grid? Who decides if the default terrain is green and lush or dark and dirty?

Something else, who screens the content? For a base game, you don't want 20 different firestations, and you sure as hades don't want 100 different kinds of parks. So who decides what is default, and what is extra content?

Example:

Who decides whether we use SimGoober's Fire station

http://files.stexfiles.com/lots/simgoober/simgoober_suburban%20fire%20station/SG%5FSuburanFireStation%5FDay%2Ejpg

or My Fire Station?

http://files.stexfiles.com/lots/dev/dev_devs%20awesome%20fire%20station/BAT1%2EJPG

That one is really a no-brainer, but other's wouldn't be so much.

There is a lot to think about if you guys really want to go with the project.

I'm willing to do photoshop work (art design, etc.), but that's all I really have time for, and that's more of a hobby for me anyways.

[Pixelrage 34]

It would be nice if existing content could be used for this project to shave off a lot of development time...otherwise I dont see it getting done any time in the next 5-10 years [considering that a game engine has to be acquired, or built from the ground up, and both options are painstaking]

[Lambtropolis 0]

I really think we should consider using a free 3D game engine that is already available, such as

the one offered by http://www.auran.com/ - it may be the only way to do this in a timely fashion.

Also, I'd be entirely willing to donate money to help support the programmers... perhaps we should set up some sort of community account for that?

[Pixelrage 34]

Take a look here for a big list of free game engines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines#Free_Engines

[LivingInThePast 364]

Oh, and dams. Real dams. That's what I want. Start browsing through "Future of SimCity" thread, we've gotta lot of ground to cover!

[david1314 44]

I was thinking about water....A flowing water system is an absolute necessity....I'm so sick of canyons in the middle of plains.

This will be a huge hurdle too.

[mightygoose 92]

ST Name: mightygoose

First Name:john

Time Zone: GMT

Country of Residence:UK

E-mail:mightygoose@googlemail.com

AIM Screename:--------

Facebook URL:http://hs.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1614870003

Myspace URL:http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=20189850

Current Education:BSc Physics

Comp Specs: 1gb ram athlon 64bit dual core, 512mb graphics card.

Appliable Skills: 3ds-max logic/realistic thinking

Applicable Contacts: maybe some lowish level c++ programmers...

Other: lots of free time....

ok as for my views on various ideas and comments i have read.

the biggest step of all..... 3D or psuedo 3D. i know we all dream of full 3D but it would be a monster to run. my vision has always been 85 view gameplay....

N,NE,E,SE,S,SW,W,NW at two inclinations... 30 degrees, 60 degrees for example. then a vertical top down view. as the top down view would have no perspective.... this veiw would be fully rotateable in theory if done correctly. five zooms in each. this also prevents the need for a 3d engine.

my next point is on grid....

i personally feel that a 2mx2m grid is optimal. that way you can have streets, wide streets, roads, wide roads, avenues, avenues with wider medians.... highways..... also sidewalks that are customiseable..... extra detail can come with props.

tbh using this system i dont think our game would be to far ahead of SC4 as far a system resources are concerned and it allows for 4x the freedom we had before.

as for specifics i havent really considered anything... unfortunately my programming skills are limited... although if mathematical equations are needed i can easily deal with those.

[Crazy_Ivan80 35]

Originally posted by: Goldfish4209

I don't know if this has been asked yet or not...but how about distribution, and pricing? With so many people working on it, who gets the cash? You can't just give them out for free...That's going to be a mess if you ask me.quote>

Dunno, burn the cds ourselves and sell it for say, 20-40 bucks? I'd pay for that.quote>

 

Go the modern way from the start and work via downloading.

That way you save on shipping and disc-burning costs. Bandwith may be a bit of a problem but the net has been getting faster and cheaper so maybe that won't be much of problem either.

edit: leave out U-Drive-It. It's of no consequence to the citybuilding. UDI is a gimmick and should be left out until the simulation does what it needs to do.

[Goldfish4209 9]

We can always use STEX and BAT team stuff, and put their logos on the box. Two or three of everything couldn't hurt, and it would give more variety.

And then, we can fix and improve on everything else that sucked in SC4.

Getting EA to let us be compatible with SC4 files might be a stretch, so we might have to make an "unofficial" program for that.

Some of the money can go to the developers, some can go to charity. This choice should go to the developers.

[north country dude 207]

I put my vote in on this project. Is there anything I can help with? Sheesh, after reviewing the direction that development for SCS is taking, I'm even will to learn 3D and get a faster connection.

-the varmint

[Alakazam 3]

You know, while some persons are really skeptic about all this... I find it all possible. Of course we need a team for everything. But it can be done. Look at what we have done now. It's already quite astounding.

[flame1396 9]

If SC4 went open source could it be possible that we could mad the transit simulator to work like joerg suggested?

That would be excellent... Actually if hte game went open source we wouldnt need a new platform OR a new game.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

Ok, here are my thoughts.

About 3d Graphics:

It is possible to have a nice looking game with 3d graphics.  The reason City Life and SCS look bad is not because of polygon limits, or any of that kind of stuff, it's because of the art direction.

Ways to allow the game to look better in 3d:

- Reduce the scale:

If you have a building that has a base of 20x20 meters, a 4 story building will require less polygons than a 20 story building.  In real life, most buildings in most cities are short buildings.

Sim City 4 has major scale problems.  When your in a city in real life, it doesn't take much height to make things feel urban.  3-5 story buildings surrounding a narrow street, with a 10 story tower in the background will feel urban.  A 3 story building in Sim City 4 is nothing, and even when people have downtowns full of 100 story + skyscrapers, it still doesn't feel like a city.  The scale can be reduced while still having a city feel like a city.  But in the end, this would limit the size of your city, but the city that you do make will be a lot more engaging and realistic.

- Designing buildings to be in 3d:

It feels like the people who made City Life and Sim City Societies designed the buildings first, and then gave them to the modelers to figure out how to make them on a low polygon budget. 

Extensive and thorough pre-planning will allow the buildings to look better.  Choosing architecture styles and building massings that are better suited to 3d is necessary.  However, this does mean that some styles and some types of buildings can not be in the game, but the buildings that are there will be a lot more well made.

- Simply good modeling:

In the end, it will depend on how good the models are.  This means that modelers can not give up and "finish" something because they're tired of working on it.  It means that modelers will need to work on it until it's done.  If a better way of doing something is found for something about that object, then it must be done, even if it means redoing a lot of work.

- Scalable Details:

I forget the real name of it.  Basically, instead of having one model which always represents the building, you have several models with varying complexity.  There are then distance thresholds which determine which model to use ("if it's father than 100 meters from the camera, use X model").

The LOD idea Joerg has isn't feasible because someone would have to program it, and that's a big job in itself.  Instead, a very simple model would be used, which is more straight forward for modelers to make.

This is also a built in quality setting.  To increase or decrease the quality setting for your computer, all you have to do is increase or decrease the thresholds for when the simplified/complex models appear.

- "Neighborhoods":

This is part of the scalable ideas concept.  Areas of your city would be automatically broken up into neighborhoods.  The boundaries of these neighborhoods would be editable by the player, since the computer wouldn't always define the neighborhoods very well. 

When working on something, you go into that neighborhood (simply by moving into it), and that neighborhood is displayed as normal.  However, all the buildings in the other neighborhoods are represented by very very simple colored massings of the buildings.  Neighborhoods would only be a few city blocks (realistically scaled city blocks) big.

Then there would be another mode, which would turn off the simulation, freeing up computer resources to display the entire city as normal.

Not only does this allow for better graphics, it also creates a stronger sense of place in your city.  It almost forces players to see the individual neighborhoods more personally.  It also makes micromanagement of the game simpler, since player have a clearer mental perception of the city.

Neighborhoods could also be integrated with game play features like funding and historical districts, as well as large scale zoning (height limits, style limits, etc.).  And I'm sure programmers could utilize the neighborhoods to simplify city-wide computations. 

A lot of my ideas about what the game could be are related to neighborhoods.

- Modding Accessibility:

Gmax will not be used for modeling, because it can not export .S3D files.  The method used to model these buildings is called polygon modeling.  It's the most basic form of modeling, and any 3d program has it, including the free programs.  Texturing will be done using a method called "UVW Unwrapping" which should also be supported in most programs.  A fancy program like 3ds Max would not be needed to work on this.

Why 2D isn't a good idea:

- Massive filesizes:

If the game is in 2D, people will be expecting more zoom levels and more rotations.  Almost all of the game's filesize is the rendered images of buildings.  Look at how big a lot file is and how big a .SC4Model file.  And then look inside of the .SC4Model file, and almost all of it is the .FSH files, the rendered images of buildings.

Each zoom level is twice as big as the last one, meaning that the area of the rendered image is squared from before.  Filesize is closely related to the area of the image.  This means that the filesize will grow exponentially with more zooms.  It will grow linearly with more rotations.  So you have to ask yourself how many gigs of space you want to leave open for SC on your computer, and how long you would wait to download all of it.

And aside from that, it seems like most players play the game at zoom 4, and that most BATers model their buildings for usage at zoom 4.  For this reason, I think that a zoom 6 would only be eyecandy, and would not enhance the actual game play.

- 3D can look good:

I don't have any doubt in my mind that something nice looking can be made in 3D for the reasons I explained before.  3D (on the level that our computers will allow), can be more personal, vibrant, and engaging than 2D can (on the level that our computers will allow).  Everything that people want for the next game is easier to do in 3d.  Freedom in network design and zoning, skyline shots, perspective shots, walking around in your city, and all of that is only feasible in a 3D game.

About the Game:

A well designed game shouldn't need the player to manually find all of the little gaps and fill them with things.

My solution to dynamic lot sizes:

Each building would have a base texture/model (landscaping) anchored to the building.  In the image below, white is the building, and the rest of that is the landscaping.

The program would cut off this base texture when it runs into streets, or other barriers (the property line, streets, whatever).

Here are some examples of what it would then look like.

  

They would be designed to fit into as many different properties as possible.  However, some mistakes would happen, but this is fixed by another idea I have.

Approving Projects:

Instead of something growing, the player not liking it, and then demolishing whatever shows up until the player likes it, I think that there should just be an approval system.

A developer wants to develop a property, and sends you a proposal.  You can either approve it, turn the offer away, or ask for a new design.  When you want something new, the game would switch it to a new building/lot, and you could either approve or turn away that.  Each new design would be a similar size and design as the previous, as if the developer was tweaking the design based around whatever the developer's goal was (you will not get a gas station, and then the design changes to a skyscraper, and then to a grocery store, it would change to a variety of similar gas stations).

Since a lot goes on in a city, there could be a lot of proposals, but there are a few solutions to that.

First, the player could set up an automation system, so that any building under a certain requirement would be automatically approved.  The requirements could be changed so much that everything would be automatically approved (it just grows like normal), or so little that every single house needs to be individually approved.

Also, you would only be alerted to proposals happening in the neighborhood you're in, except for very significant proposals elsewhere.  There would be a menu somewhere that would list all of the proposals by neighborhood, allowing for quick access to them.  In this way again, micromanagement is available, but not necessary in any way.

"The game is too hard":

Yeah, that's what they say.  But I don't think the game is too hard, I think it is poorly designed.  When people play the game, they expect it to react half-way realistically.  They do something very logical, and then the game doesn't react the same way, it doesn't work, and they get frustrated. 

Players that are good at the game recognize that it is not in any way realistic, and we manipulate the game mechanics (build more parks to increase the demand cap.  Bulldoze existing unwanted CO$$$ buildings to artificially increase demand for them, so that the smaller buildings regrow as skyscrapers downtown.  etc.).

The solution is to make the game more intuitive and more direct.  Not to dumb the game down.

Zoning:

I think that a more dynamic zoning system would be better.

Instead of having zones as we know it, zones would be more like real zones and ordinances.  Zones would contain limits on setbacks from the street, height, use, building style, building purpose, and more.  These would appear as a long checklist (organized by collapsible trees) when you click on a lot in the game.

If you want it to be a hospital, then you could check off the hospital checkbox.  If you also want it to be 15 stories+, you would check off the height limit box, and then type in the number.  If you're zoning for a parking garage, but you want it to have ground floor retail, then you check off the parking garage box, and the retail box.  If you want it to be an apartment building with ground floor retail, you check off those boxes.

And only buildings that fulfill those demands would be built.

However, there would be some default settings, which would be just like the current zones, which makes such micromanagement unnecessary for those uninterested.  And for those interested, you could save zones types you've made as custom zone types.

And this also implies that everything in the game will grow according to proposals, which is true.  One system to learn for building all buildings in the game.  You can zone for a large hospital, and there will be a variety of large hospitals to choose from.  I think this is better than having 20 hospital lots in a hospital menu, or 30 police station lots, etc.  I think this is a good system for handling large numbers of buildings.

Proposal Evolution:

The proposals of course, would have to be modded by the community individually for the most part.  Proposals can be modded though, so that they can evolve over time. 

So lets say the proposal is a school.  It gets built, and 20 years later, the population increases, and more school capacity is needed.  The game recognizes this and proposes an addition to the school.

This would actually be modded as the same game object by the creators, but to the player it would appear a lot more dynamic and realistic.  Plus, a variety of new additions could be made, and a tree of evolution for the game object (the building) could be created.  This could also include things like renovations if the building became abandoned.

Anyway, as you can see, I have a lot of thoughts.  Not everything there is applicable for a fan made game, but I think a lot of it is.  Congratulations if you read it all!  lol

But I'd like to point out that this project will probably not go very far (although it could).  Something just like this was started a few years ago, and they got as far as having a temporary building model as a building, a street, with a car driving around the street, and this was after quite a bit of work.  The project died, and since then I can't even find the website, and no one I ask even remembers it.

If this does get a start though, I offer my services as an art director, modeler, and game designer.  Just not a programmer since I don't know how (I want to do everything that everybody wants to do, and I can't do what is really needed that no one can do ).

[Gridlock 9]

I realy admire you guys , but can i advise that you forget making this an open source game . Set up a selective team of guys based of skillz . Source the guys that are missings ,programmers whatever , devolop your program , damn but its the only way , first game anyway ,, dare i say approach a publisher .. Maybe get the support of a publisher with your ideas . i know it takes away alot of your independance on this but im sure it would leave you guys free to concentrate on your part of the project .You know for sure you got 100,000 customers at simtropolis, although i suspect some folks have many aliases, at least maybe ,possibly more ,possibly millions more if you go about it it the correct manner.

[LivingInThePast 364]

OK! I made a TXT of all the requests on the SimCity Future Discussion Thread! Watch out...it's only the first page.

http://files.filefront.com//;7729206;;/>[ linkie ]

[mightygoose 92]

that sounds like a very good plan

[Hamish 1,370]

The txt file is a good place to source the ideas right now.

[Jerebannus XVI 7]

Even though most of the stuff you guys are saying sounds like another language to me, the bits I understand sound like great ideas.

I admire yor bravery for even wanting to make a game basically from scratch. I am not an expert at coding but I can donate money to go towards this project as I'm sure many others would.

[BobbyBuilds 2]

2 IDEAS:

1) I think it's important to try to do away with the grid. Try to incorporate a more "free-range" approach to laying roads, and such.

2) Doing away with the grid would mean being able to spin buildings in any direction before you plop them.

Good luck learning how to do those things. (sic) If you think they're good idears, that is.

[tommiej 0]

wow..

what i just read, it's amazing!! i really wish i could help, but i don't have any experience on modding/programming/batting.. i can produce ideas, but everybody else can do that as well..

i really hope that this is going to work.. i will certainly buy the game ($40-60, no problem)

i really wish you guys good luck with this amazing project!!

have put the thread in my sign, i think this is very important for sc and the community, the new screenshots from scs are looking better, but still cartoonish and 4 lane roads everywhere isn't realistic..

i suppose dirk got every email address of every member.. so can't dirk do anything to inform just about everyone about this project?? or to contact old modding members (raphael, and co.)

[rodent1989 9]

omg, i went away for like 2 hours and this thread exploded.  holy cow, i guess people are interested.  Jasoncw  welcome to the team, you seem to have a good grasp on what we're trying to do.  What we need to todo now is hammer down EXACTLY WHAT WE WANT, like i tried to do 2 pages ago in those goals, I i'll keep amending the goals as we go.

1.  We want to create a game that is a City Simulator.

2.  We want it to be full 3d

3.  We want it to look better than SCS, and at least as good as SC4 (if possible)

4.  We want the grid to be either non-existant or considerably more flexible.

5.  We want (or must) to keep the community aspect of user content.

6.  We want it to be open source for future updates and fixes.

7.  We want a base set of custom content with extra content available at players choice.

8.  We want to change the dimensions of a city tile to increase realism

9.  We want to change the scale (like jasoncw said) to increase the realism of midrises

10.  We want the game to be as free as possible

11.  We want to simplify the annoying points of SimCity 4, by improving them not removing them.

12.  We want to show that the customers are in charge!!!

[topcliff 1]

You know, I think this is totally doable. Out of the 170k people here, there has to be some people who work on software and computers. The only thing I want for this possible game is for their not to be growables. Let me explain why:

1. Growables rely on certain factors, and these factors are sometimes unachievable (like the Stage 7's in Vanilla).

2. Uncertainty is the main problem. Players spend too much time on letting things grow, often in frustrating clusters, patterns, areas, etc.

3. After reviewing some of the CJ greats, I realized that most of those are plopped for maximum satisfaction and zero repitition on the player's part.

4. Plops are easier to control, plus give total control to the player in terms of designing their optimum city.

TopCliff

[LivingInThePast 364]

One thing I'd like to see is a little Simtrop humor twist, absolutely no Simlish (storefronts are English, Japanese, or wherever they're made and/or district they are in), and have it NOT BE politically correct! Why would ANYONE place a "House of Worship"? C'mon, respect the religions!

[rodent1989 9]

I think that instead of abandoning the grid completely we need to find a way to tweak the grid to do exactly what we want.  Keeping the game grid based will also keep the game managable. 

I think we need to work on what what I originally posted on page one:

Select road tool

Click on point A and click on point B.

Road is drawn btwn A and B

A grid radiating X tiles from road is "Projected" onto the screen.

(X can either be a game default or an input from user)

Buildings attach themselves to that grid according to the system that jasoncw suggested.

This would allow for cities like paris where the roads are mostly straight, but not all at 45 or 90 degree angles.

Jasoncw's idea, if implementable would allow for easier W2W development along those straight roads.

As much as we want it, I think we should abandon the idea of "long gentle curves" as our goal is

to create a "city simulator."

[BobbyBuilds 2]

Originally posted by: topcliff The only thing I want for this possible game is for their not to be growables. quote>

Or you could opt to toggle them off.  Also, same should go for that stupid automatic street plopper function.

[patriots_1228 51]

id be willing to contribute some of my models....they are not very good but it would be fun to say that i participated in making a great game lol

[Alakazam 3]

Anyone here are programmers (Like, real ones)? That's probably the thing we'll need most and also lack most. Making a game is not only modeling buildings and such.