Simtropolis 1000

[Master of Nukes 0]

Well I certainly am willing help cause I don't see why this isn't possible

We are a community of 170,000 people!

I am willing to contribute anything i can.

I'm not talented in modding, coding, ect.

But I can learn. Just someone tell me to get some software and I can learn and get to work.

Fantastic Ideas guys I hope we get to start this. (And get that code we want so bad).

Nuke

[Saint Andrew 6]

I have no skills whatsoever, but I love this idea, and I really really do hope that those who usually get involved with big projects and have the talent necessary to help will come forward.

[sc4melbourne 0]

Originally posted by: BC_Rich_Warlock sc4melbourn wouldn't be too much like SC4 in the way of "wedge" curvesquote>

 

Actually, I've had a bit of a think about this and I've thought of a better way to manage curves with more flexibility. Firstly, use a special cursor to click on one side of the road on a grid co-ordinate where the curve is to start. Then, click on a grid co-ordinate where the curve for that side of the road is going to end. Then, a straight line appears connecting these two points, and the player moves this line to distort it and change the grade of the curve. The game then builds the road, whilst maintaing the width of the road.

This reminds me of using a graphics program to draw a curved line, and obviously this level of detail may be difficult to code and may frustrate some players. However, the latter point could be overcome if the most common types of road curves (22.5, 45, 67.5 degrees) were selectable as menu items. This tool would only then be necessary for intricate road layouts.

Also, I'm a little confused by joerg's and david1314's discussions about using splines and w2w setups (more technical jargon). What I can gather from this is that roads will have an invisible line down the middle of them which delineates both sides of the road into different blocks? Then, each block would be given a number, and pathfinding routes devised for the block?

If this is what you mean, it sounds like a good idea.

I'm starting to teach myself something about BATing and MODing at this stage, so that I can keep apace with these discussions.

[Pixelrage 34]

Something along the lines of Photoshop/Illustrator's "pen tool" would be really nice, but I imagine, nearly impossible to do.

[nousername 0]

Ok three things, One: Great idea on making our own game... Two: Well if we wanted to get some major funding, try looking into getting support from a Bank, like oh i don't know maybe, TD Canada Trust or RBC (Royal Bank) or CIBC or maybe even BMO Bank of Montreal... And three: A good way to get discounts on computers, is to order more than one of them... one last thing, if you need any help with this i'd be he happy to do anything i can....

[Pixelrage 34]

IMHO, like any fan made game of this nature, it would be just that - fan supported...there would be no funding. Even if it used a single tidbit of code from SC4 without written consent, it would be a lawsuit waiting to happen if the game were to be sold.

It's preposterous to even think that Maxis would help out with such a thing. It would be a threat to them, if anything.

[Albatross Domain 2]

Originally posted by: hamish Someone should make a reference to this over at sc4devotion to link them back to this. It would be a boost to get the people over there. I would but im not to familiar with sc4devotion.quote>

I'mn pretty much sure the same arguement and debate is going on @ SC4D... rememeber, NAM is being supported by both sites, which has been very crucial to the continuing development of SC4 for a number of years now.

I do have one thing to add though....

Long before EA bought the rights of Maxis, and before the early days of Will Wright's Original "A-train" Series... Microsoft had created Flight "Sim"ulator back in the mid 80's... in my opinion, was one of THE first SIM game of its time (and to think -- it was played on an old 8088 less than 4MHZ CPU) shows how old I am.

[Creathir 3]

I wonder how much EA would sell the Simcity 4 source code for?

Could we raise that much money to purcahse it from them?

- Creathir

[Pixelrage 34]

Originally posted by: Creathir I wonder how much EA would sell the Simcity 4 source code for?

Could we raise that much money to purcahse it from them?

- Creathirquote>

see my post & link on page 2, a little more than 3/4ths down. Supposedly, someone here acquired the access to SC4's source code last year, but that person is MIA....

[screamingman12 30]

I am also willing to help, I have access to computer parts and I know how to assemble one from the ground up. I also know transportation planning, and limited 3D modeling.

[Creathir 3]

Pixelrage:

I remember reading that and wondering what ever happened to that...

Maybe EA had him knocked off? Just kidding!

We most certainly would have to pay for the source code, as it is the IP of EA.

The other option would be to program from scratch, though this could be a VERY time consuming proposition, though we do not really have a lot of choice in the matter.

Also, I am a full time Programmer/IT Manager, so I would be more than happy to lend my expertise wherever I could. I mostly write in VB.Net, though I could easily pick up C++ (what most games are written in) if I needed to.

The keys to writing our own, would be to TOTALLY reverse engineer the content files of the program. How it reads all of the city data, and lays it out in the program. Once this had been documented, we could then proceed to write our own display interface (program) for the data.

One of the most common ways of documenting something such as this, at least in the open source world, is the use of wikis to provide a place to store this data.

In my opinion, these should be our next steps, if source code acquisition is not an option.

- Creathir

[Albatross Domain 2]

On one of the forums, someone mentioned a while back... Pro's and Con's

1) Why didn't someone fix the "problems" that already existed on SC4RH?

Some of the quirks were: Not all of the cities among the other regions interacted with each other, even with all of the vital links (i.e.

Water, subway, roads, Hwys, power, etc) in a real time basis... In SC2k and 3K, you actually saw actions you made in your city or region affected the other.. the goal was to not only build the most spectacular city to brag about, but to also create a sense of balance among them...

2)Yes we all know, how vital water is in RL and in SC, why not make the roads interlinked with the water instead of always having to plop and drag pipes?

Most of the Streets and Roads in RL have Water pipes feeding all cities (unless you'll living out in the desert of course), use the ability to make aquifers (I.e. Canals?) in parts now near the central core of that particular city. Again thus eliminating the constant plop and drag of such pipes --- however do keep the water waste plant... lord knows no one wants to take a squat in a 100

[Pixelrage 34]

Originally posted by: Creathir

Maybe EA had him knocked off?

quote>

maybe they thought that they had shot themselves in the foot by handing it over

[codyg1985 0]

I have been a member here at ST for a while now, and while I have not been very vocal, I keep being amazed by the custom content that has already been created for SC4.  IN essence this community has already created its own expansion pack for SC4.  I think the idea of creating a new game is a huge undertaking,.  After seeing the bits and pieces of the travesty that is SimCity Socieites, I think this will be the only way that the SC series will survive.

If a new game is to be created, it should be done right.  Using the existing SC4 code to build upon would certainly make development go faster, but it would also be like a house of cards.  The game should be created from scratch if possible.  Just imagine how a full 3D system, a totally realistic pathfinding engine (not only tracks Sims to work but also to run errands, go to parties, social gathering, etc.), and new networks would perform on top of the existing source code for SC4.

I don't have any experience with 3dsmax or any other modeling program, but at my work I use a CAD program called Microstation.   I have limited experience with C++, but I have always been eager to learn more about it.

Microstation and my previous experience helping out surveying crews give me an idea of how to layout roads or other infrastructure.  Horizontally speaking only, roads are either straight (tangent) or are curved.  Most road curves are actually circular arcs defined by the degree of curvature (the angle subtended by the beginning of the curve and the end of the curve) and the radius of the arc.   When laying out a road at first, the curves are left out; only the tangent sections are put in, and those tangent sections intersect at a point.  This whole concept is better illustrated as follows:

After the road is designed and drawn using all tangent sections, the designer comes back in and draws the curves on either side of the intersection point of the two tangent lines (called the Point of Intersection or PI).  The distance from the PI to either end of the curve (the point of curvature, or PC to the point of tangency, or PT) is the same. 

What I am getting at here is that in this game, one could design a road that only has straight sections at first, then after you finish laying out that, you could go back in and draw in a curve to connect the two straight sections.  You could define the radius of the curve and the beginning of the curve.  After that is done, the game would draw in the road for you.

What happens in Microstation when one draws a line that is not at a nice angle from the vertical is that the program creates a new coordinate system based off that line.  Similarly, once a road is created in this game, a local zoning grid could be created that extends so many tiles away from the road.

I hope to keep up with this project as it moves along.  I also would like to help in anyway that I can.

[sc4melbourne 0]

Originally posted by: hamish Someone should make a reference to this over at sc4devotion to link them back to this. It would be a boost to get the people over there. I would but im not to familiar with sc4devotion. quote>

 

I think someone should be in charge of spreading the work. ie, keeping a record of what sites this project has been posted on and monitoring the response. Perhaps people could mention it on this thread when they've posted about this on another forum, or PM someone who nominates themself. I would, but I'm about to go to bed - it's been a long day!

Also, it would be better if longtime members of the other sites posted them rather than someone who deliberately joins up to do so - it would have more credibility.

Of course, that is if we want to start spreading the word about this. It may be better to discuss the possibilities quietly for a while before alerting many others.

[Goldfish4209 9]

Although I have zero skills compared to the programming guys here, I'd be willing to help. This sounds completely possible, with a bit of commitment. If you guys actually made this game, I'd be more than willing to pay for this.

As for the grid, I propose a two level grid, if that's not too hard to program. One level would be aligned with the compass, and the second level would be rotated 45 degrees, in effect making an eight way grid. This was inplemented in zoo tycoon 2, and it looked perfectly fine.

If someone's doing this, I'm getting my donation dollars ready.

[BurroDiablo 222]

I love this idea... I have no skills, but if your looking for some keen Photoshop Artists or Graphic designers you can always pass a word by me or Mulefisk

[Albatross Domain 2]

Since most of know that, the Orig. SC4 "Vanilla" and RH had some flaws upon its release, at least the makers whether it was EA or Maxis or Both... It did allow the ability to create custom "almost anything" NAM for example.

[ssfsx17 0]

I will not necessarily have any time to be an actual programmer, but I can advise you guys on a lot of the details.

Organizational Structure: It's probably best to do this like how the real game industry does it: four main teams, each with its own "senior" people who are in charge.

1. Game Engine Team

2. Tools Team

3. Assets Team - models, textures, sounds, animations, etc. They will get to use the stuff made by the Tools team. In an open & free project, the purpose of this team is to set the standards that the rest of the community will follow.

4. Game Design Team - their job is to argue all day long with the Game Engine team about what can be done quickly by computers and what cannot be. =P Or, if the game engine is made just right, they can do almost all the game mechanics purely through some kind of scripting.

Last but not least, there are project leaders who make sure that the four teams are working together and agreeing with each other.

Technical Details & Limitations: First things first, I have something to say and you're not going to like it: if you want the game to run as fast as possible you will have to use grids. The reason is simple: computers can handle matrices a lot better than they can handle a free-form data structure. With matrices, we can apply algorithms that run blazingly fast. With a free-form set of points and connections, there is a lot more calculation involved every time you alter the network - the system has to take a lot more time to look up all the points and connections and figure out where the network has been changed. If you want to stick with a free-form system, you will need to brush up on your heavy-duty algorithms.

With regards to the game engine, you are going to want to make it such that the actual programming is as simple as possible - basically, it should be just enough to provide menus, camera control, holding the buildings & transportation networks in memory, drawing the view as efficiently as possible, etc. You want to push as much of the game logic as possible into script. I reccomend either Python or Lua - Python is generally considered easy for non-programmers and Lua is very similar to C.

Managing Code: You want to have at least three different, separate code bases - stable, testing, and unstable. The code starts with "unstable," then the people in charge of testing get to work on it in their own "testing" section. When they feel that the code is finally good enough, they put it into the "stable" section. It's possible to achieve a system like this by setting up three different SVN repositories, but lately there's been a trend towards things like Mercurial (http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/) and Git (http://git.or.cz/).

[sc4melbourne 0]

Originally posted by: codyg1985

 

Wow, thanks codyg1985! This is what I was trying to say (rather shoddily) earlier on.

The player could use a tool to click points PC and PT on a grid coordinate. A straight line would be drawn between the two and then the player could subtend the line to the desired degree of curvature.

The road would maintain its width, as the other side of the road (the line marked with the Ds), would also have the same degree of curvature. Come to think of it, the whole road network could be constructed like this, even straight sections. That way, you could break away from having 90 or 45 degree roads only. I might want a road from point X1 (9, 4) to point X2 (16, 24). All I do is click the two coordinates, choose not to subtend the angle, and the road is created between the two points, even though it has an inconvenient gradient of 70.7 degrees.

I don't know if this is possible, but Creathir might be able to shed some light, given his programming experience.

[Albatross Domain 2]

Ok.. I just looked at the newest screenshots that were out... and I will have to admit: the were very interesting... but here's where problems arise... even in everyones societies.. no body drives in completely 90

[ssfsx17 0]

Laying down a freely-curved road section is easy enough. The hard part is later putting down another network section that intersects it.

[Albatross Domain 2]

Ok.. I just looked at the newest screenshots that were out... and I will have to admit: the were very interesting... but here's where problems arise... even in everyones societies.. no body drives in completely 90

[codyg1985 0]

Originally posted by: sc4melbourne

Wow, thanks codyg1985! This is what I was trying to say (rather shoddily) earlier on.

The player could use a tool to click points PC and PT on a grid coordinate. A straight line would be drawn between the two and then the player could subtend the line to the desired degree of curvature.

The road would maintain its width, as the other side of the road (the line marked with the Ds), would also have the same degree of curvature. Come to think of it, the whole road network could be constructed like this, even straight sections. That way, you could break away from having 90 or 45 degree roads only. I might want a road from point X1 (9, 4) to point X2 (16, 24). All I do is click the two coordinates, choose not to subtend the angle, and the road is created between the two points, even though it has an inconvenient gradient of 70.7 degrees.

I don't know if this is possible, but Creathir might be able to shed some light, given his programming experience.quote>

To expand on this idea:  there could be an automated mode where the player would draw all the straight sections, and the game would then automatically draw in curves based on a default setting of his/her choosing.  That setting could be based on the distance between the PC and the PI, the radius of the curve, or a combination thereof (the degree of curve would bet determined by the angle between the two adjoining tangent lines).   If there is an obstacle in the way, the game would allow you to either demolish the obstacle or adjust the curve accordingly.

Drawing straight sections of road would also not be limited to the usual directions.  In Microstation, you are allowed to draw a line in any direction you choose, but there is an auto-snap that snaps to 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees.  A similar thing could be used to draw the straight sections in this game.  One could draw a line in any direction desired, but the game would auto-snap to 0, 45, 90, 135, 180, etc.  Once that first line is drawn, a new coordinate system is defined based on that line (where 0 is the same direction as the line). 

It would be a great way to draw roads, highways, and railroads in the game.  I don't know whether it would be possible or too complex, but it would somewhat free us from the grid.

[Albatross Domain 2]

Ok.. I just looked at the newest screenshots that were out... and I will have to admit: the were very interesting... but here's where problems arise... even in everyones societies.. no body drives in completely 90

[+Guest]

I am an illustrator guys. I can draw concept stuff. Well I'm a student but yeah I can always helpout.

[Crazy_Ivan80 35]

Originally posted by: simcity4crazyguy Mine too, though I'm sceptical.

I was at the chat session when SimMars was being debated on. The missus was there, everyone was there, and I remember being asked if it would be a good idea to which I said yes. From then on SimMars was in progress with humongous support. And then the support gradually dwindled. A high burst of energy is good, but ya'll need to maintain it for the next several months or even years it's going to take. SimMars was in progress for the past 1-2 years now, and we're (we as in them, the SimMars team, and I) are still looking forward to Beta 2 being released.

Just a warning.

scquote>

 

indeed, it's a long trot for everyone: those who make the game and those have to wait to play it. (I'm on the playing side )

That said: it can never hurt to talk to people who do this kind of work regularly as either their job or their hobby.

As such the following link may be of interest. 

Toady One is the person you'd need to contact there.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/

[joerg 280]

Ok guys im awake from my short slumber and the activity here is great.

So before we come up with any more ideas I say lets accomplish a few things.

First off back in the day Buggi was the man he or she i suppose was helping lead the away in modding the game and is a grandfather in the modding community, him ralphninja, darkmatter, ilive, and kardybris (sp?) were all masters.

So we have a basic task before us and i need volunteers to help with this.

First off we need an official note taker and im taking jobs apps now. This person needs to be a fast typer and an active member at simtropolis, membership at SC4D would be great to. This person would basically sum up the ideas people are coming up with for every different aspect of the game in an organized and effective manor. So any volunteers?

Next up this is huge so I need tons of people. Buggi, and all those other greats from the past are still alive and well somewhere, and I know someone here has to have their real life contact info. I used to talk to DM and a few others but have long since lost the means to contact them. We NEED to talk to Buggi how he got access to the source I do not know, but he seemed very optomistic in the fact that it could be easilly manipulated. I still believe that the source will not be of much assistance to us, but I want to follow the stream of comments here and they are clearly screaming we need the source.

Finally their are active members of this site *cough* dirk *cough* that have the ability to contact the folks at maxis. If we could get ahold of Will or anyone over there we might be able to get something out of it. One exciting thing to me is something we may have all overlooked. Maxis indicated they started on SC5 way back when like in 2004, but clearly EA must have pulled the plug or something becuase there is no way that the product we are seeing now is any result of what maxis started 4 years ago. So their is the brighter possibility that what Will and Maxis originally began a few years back could still be in need of finishing. Along come us.

SSFSX you seem to know your stuff, and I still agree on the grid approach, I honestly think we can provide a free form look with a smaller grid, but to be honest it will be ultimately up to our program team.  We can debate the two all day long but if in the end one will take a 2000 dollar quad core rig to run and take 3 years to program then yeah we should probably go with the other.

Everyone is right we need programers, everyone knows someone outside of the sim community that knows programming or C++ but we have to start working with those people and bringing them in. So i extend my call to everyone to start pulling your RL friends together aswell. Thanks

[deeejayeee 0]

For my own personal taste I could live with Simcity 4 for a long time it the game had the ability to create curved roads and not just 45 degree angles and right angles. Everyone that has worked on modes for the game has done an excellent job which Maxis should have done from the start. Having said that, if the current screenshots of sim 5 is where maxis is going they are going to have to do a lot better before I stop playing SC4.

[Crazy_Ivan80 35]

This may be a very stupid comment but has anyone thought about the possibility that the sourcode might actually be the property of the Maxis Studio rather than Electornic Arts?

Much would obviously depend just how the contracts that resulted in the ecquisition of Maxis by EA are set up.