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Railattack10

SimCity 4 randomly crashes

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I'm new to the simtropolis forums and I was looking for an solution to a problem. Sometimes I get lucky and the crash doesn't happen at all during a game session. But it mostly seems to happen most of the time when I am installing subways. When the crash does happen my laptop screen turns off and the wifi indicator turns off as well, the only indicator on is the power and the laptop fan is still spinning but I have to turn it off pressing the power button. I'm guessing nobody have encountered this problem before. 

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Hi @Railattack10 and welcome to Simtropolis. *:)

Sorry to hear about the crashing, but rest assured you're not alone and this can happen with the game. The most common occurrence is due to how SC4 was never designed for use with modern computer processors that feature multiple CPU cores. To fix this, try adding the -CPUcount:1 switch to the Target box in your game's shortcut. It will then run on a single processor core which improves the stability and prevents random crashing from happening.

The article here explains about adding command line options, and includes a few others which might come in useful.


Two other common causes of crashes are when hovering a NAM puzzle piece over a transit enabled lot, or a faulty plugin item itself. How the crashing is happening intermittently for you while playing, seems to suggest it might be with the lack of stability. With being a network, it is possible that the puzzle piece issue is related to subways, such as with a station. In which case you may find it useful to install the SC4Fix DLL file which resolves this issue. Place the file directly in your Plugins folder so it goes in no subfolders. This is important because DLL files aren't recognised by the game unless they're placed inside the root of Plugins itself.

After attempting these two things (if not already), see how it goes and whether it might prevent the crashing from occurring.

Hope this helps!

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    @Cyclone Boom 
    I've tried limiting the CPU core count to one but that doesn't seem to work. Also here's the plugins I have installed

    1. crime doesn't play 
    2. industry quadrupler
    3.  IH_census_10_78_12

    I don't know if these plugins are known for some issues. If none of the solutions work then I will run SC4 in a windows XP virtual machine.

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    The three plugins listed have been around a long time and are stable.

    Now when you say the CPU core count doesn't work, is that meaning when you check the core affinity it's not restricted to a single core? If so, then are you using a launcher of some sort? That could be overriding the settings in the target line of the game's shortcut.

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    @CorinaMarie
    I am using the launcher here's the link:

    Well I just have realized the launcher has settings where you can limit the cpu core to one so I don't have to go into task manager and set the affinity. 

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    42 minutes ago, Railattack10 said:

    I am using the launcher

    Cool. I don't use a launcher so I'm not familiar with any of them, but all our advice above should still work if you can find where to set the options within the launcher.

    Ofc, for the initial troubleshooting it might be easier to skip the launcher and then if the game can be made to run we'll know what the trouble is. From there you'd know exactly what to look for to tweak in the launcher options.

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    Update: The same problem happened again and my laptop stopped working and I had no choice but to force turn it off via power button. 

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    Is there a crash log or anything like that to find out the root of the problem.

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    4 hours ago, Railattack10 said:

    Is there a crash log or anything like that to find out the root of the problem.

    Hiya @Railattack10, Generally, there is an exception log which locates in the folder C:\Users\Ruan15\Documents\SimCity 4\Exception Reports\, You can find some txt files are named after SimCity Exception Report [DATE] and then paste the content here. Hope it helps.:}

    Sincerely,

    -- Raymond

     

    23 hours ago, Railattack10 said:

    When the crash does happen my laptop screen turns off and the wifi indicator turns off as well, the only indicator on is the power and the laptop fan is still spinning but I have to turn it off pressing the power button.

     

    7 hours ago, Railattack10 said:

    My anti virus thought SC4 was a virus now

    wfepj2op3.PNG

    Ah, I just look through your posts carefully, Frankly, I have never heard of this before, It seems like the game leads to System or Graphics errors, May i ask that where did you get the SC4 Installation? Did you have this issue with empty Plugins folder? Please wait for a moment, I'd like to check the virus message out a bit…

    Thank you CoriBoom™*:blush:, I googled it a bit and it seemed the SC4 is detected by Microsoft as VirTool:Win32/Obfuscator.AU:

    Virscan

    VirTool:Win32/Obfuscator.AU

    I don't know why my Win10 is ok with SC4, however as the last workaround i would try to re-install the game or add SC4 into exception rule of antivirus software, Anyway, you'd better to wait and see if there are more better advices from our experts. I will be back if i get more good ideas, Good Luck!:}

    Sincerely,

    -- Raymond

    -- Edit (similar issue) --

     

     

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    Hiya @Railattack10

    From Microsoft's document:

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/client-management/troubleshoot-event-id-41-restart

    I thought your issue may fit Scenario 2, If so, I surmise that there are many reasons which could cause this, Virus probably is one of them, But I have never heard of relevant threads about SC4 and Virus, all i can suggest here is that re-install the game and turn off the antivirus software temporarily, However before this, I highly suggest waiting for other experts on this who would bring more better and professional advices.:} Good Luck!

    Sincerely,

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    18 hours ago, Railattack10 said:

    I look in window event viewer

    That "resource exhaustion detector" is worrisome. Does that warning have details inside telling you what resource your machine ran out of? If it ran out of memory, then that could explain your crash (and an irregular shut-down explains the subsequent error messages when you restarted).

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    19 hours ago, Railattack10 said:

    I look in window event viewer and this is what I got. Same time as when SC4 crashed.

     

    1 hour ago, jeffryfisher said:

    That "resource exhaustion detector" is worrisome. Does that warning have details inside telling you what resource your machine ran out of? If it ran out of memory, then that could explain your crash (and an irregular shut-down explains the subsequent error messages when you restarted).

    Indeed, posting the specs of the computer you are playing on would help here.  Including the screen's native resolution.  From a quick Google search, it seems this problem occurs on some versions of Windows when using fullscreen applications in a different resolution, due to a memory leak.

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    59 minutes ago, Indiana Joe said:

     

    Indeed, posting the specs of the computer you are playing on would help here.  Including the screen's native resolution.  From a quick Google search, it seems this problem occurs on some versions of Windows when using fullscreen applications in a different resolution, due to a memory leak.

    I didn't remember playing SC4 at 12:22:50 I was in a online class I couldn't have played. 
    Here are my PC specs:
    4GB ram (3GB usable)

    Nvidia quadro NVS 110M

    Intel T2600

    Windows 7 32bit

    240GB SSD

    The laptop model is dell latitude D620 it's not the fastest laptop I think it's more than enough for SC4  

    Edit: I always look at task manager when I am playing a game or doing really anything and I didn't remember noticing the RAM usage reaching max

     


      Edited by Railattack10  

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    @Railattack10. the critical Kernel Power event  you highlighted is logged anytime a computer reboots after an unclean shutdown.

    The "resource exhaustion detector" event with event ID 2004 is usually logged " when windows successfully diagnosed a low virtual memory condition. " This could be caused by a) virtual memory being incorrectly configured, or b) since Virtual Memory is essentially hard drive space, a lack of hard drive space.

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    1 hour ago, Railattack10 said:

    4GB ram (3GB usable)

    ...

    Windows 7 32bit

    This explains a lot really. A 32-bit OS can't actually make use of more than 2GB RAM. Therefore if you're running the full NAM controller of NAM 37/38 (default), you won't have sufficient memory to play SC4 reliably.

    1 hour ago, Railattack10 said:

    Edit: I always look at task manager when I am playing a game or doing really anything and I didn't remember noticing the RAM usage reaching max

    Right, but Windows is trying to avoid this, by pushing things from RAM into VM (HDD), hence you probably don't notice it. That doesn't mean it's not what's happening, you don't need to run out of RAM, just that by being forced to use VM instead, it brings everything down.

    32 minutes ago, twalsh102 said:

    The "resource exhaustion detector" event with event ID 2004 is usually logged " when windows successfully diagnosed a low virtual memory condition. " This could be caused by a) virtual memory being incorrectly configured, or b) since Virtual Memory is essentially hard drive space, a lack of hard drive space.

    Virtual Memory is fine for some use cases, but SC4 if pushed into this slower space, can not cope. That said, if SC4 ran out of memory, it shouldn't take the computer down with it.

    Honestly, you really should be using a 64-bit OS, sadly there is no such thing as an upgrade, if you can do this, it'll be a clean install. This is just a general thing, not specific to SC4 or this problem.

    If you want NAM 37/38 or later to work, you should run the Controller Compiler included in the NAM installer download, removing at the very least, the RHW code in the process. Do this and I'm very confident your problems will go away. Of course, if you want to use RHW, that's going to be a problem, but I can't help you there, your system doesn't have enough RAM to run SC4 and the latest RHW code, which is getting on to 5 million lines of additional code these days. See the link in my signature if you need help with making a custom controller, I cover this is my NAM 37+ installer tutorial on YouTube.

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    8 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

    Therefore if you running the full NAM

    Our friend here doesn't meet the minimum requirements at all for the NAM, which for a few versions has required 4GB of usable RAM.  And it's not listed in the 3 things in their plugins folder anyway.

    That's about a 15 year old laptop, and I think telling them they need to upgrade things is no more help than telling someone with 500,000 miles on the odometer that they should be shopping for a new car.  But hey, if it still runs!

    So if we want to get the game working at all, the difficulty lies in diagnosing that old 32-bit Windows 7.  And it might still need pointing out, @Railattack10, that it is not SimCity 4 that is crashing.  It is your entire computer that is crashing in these instances.

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    4 hours ago, Indiana Joe said:

    Our friend here doesn't meet the minimum requirements at all for the NAM, which for a few versions has required 4GB of usable RAM.  And it's not listed in the 3 things in their plugins folder anyway.

    That's about a 15 year old laptop, and I think telling them they need to upgrade things is no more help than telling someone with 500,000 miles on the odometer that they should be shopping for a new car.  But hey, if it still runs!

    So if we want to get the game working at all, the difficulty lies in diagnosing that old 32-bit Windows 7.  And it might still need pointing out, @Railattack10, that it is not SimCity 4 that is crashing.  It is your entire computer that is crashing in these instances.

    It's definitely SC4 causing my machine to crash. I'd never had this happen with any other software or games. I also can't upgrade to a 64-bit os because my current CPU is x86 based and I will have to upgrade to a intel duo core T7200.

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    On 11/12/2020 at 2:48 PM, Railattack10 said:

    I didn't remember playing SC4 at 12:22:50 I was in a online class I couldn't have played. 

    But was the game running? If it wasn't , then SC4 could not have been the cause of this particular crash. Files merely being on your hard drive will not cause a crash.

    Since the ONLY thing we have to try and help troubleshoot this is the screenshot of your last crash, that is ALL we have to go on.

    If it was running, then we are back to diagnosing the Virtual Memory error. I ran SC4 on a Win 7 laptop (albeit one with higher specs than yours) for years without it ever causing a system crash (CTDs are a different story).

    If you can repeat the problem, it would help if we could get similar screenshots from the event log as soon as you reboot. If you always see the same error, that's the one you have to troubleshoot. Otherwise, all we're doing is guessing and shooting in the dark.

    I suggest Googling "resource exhaustion detector event ID 2004" and following any instructions you find to try and troubleshoot this.At least one of the sites I found suggested that system file corruption might be the culprit

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    22 hours ago, Indiana Joe said:

    That's about a 15 year old laptop, and I think telling them they need to upgrade things is no more help than telling someone with 500,000 miles on the odometer that they should be shopping for a new car.  But hey, if it still runs!

    I didn't mean to suggest upgrading the OS was the best solution, but certainly it could access more RAM, which is already present in the system, but only if a 64-bit system was installed. This is probably easier than suggesting a new computer. However, if it's using an x86 CPU, then clearly this isn't a solution.

    However, whilst I may not know the financial situation of others, nor how much playing SC4 means to them. It seems to me that it's still a valid suggestion, that perhaps a new (second hand) system might be worth considering at least. A few years back I got a 1st gen Core i5 ThinkPad for about 110€, more than sufficient to run the game, although you should get a system with a dedicated GPU ideally. Frankly an ideal system for SC4 can be had for 50 (€/$/£), since 2nd hand PCs hold no value long before they are 10 years old. Am I saying that's right for a given person?, no, but that doesn't invalidate it as advice either.

    Likewise, if you have an old car with 500k and use it to drive to the shops, what the hell, maybe you really like it, I get that. But if you have the same car and use it to transport urgent organ's for transplant, the situation changes rather. The fact is, this system is at the point where something needs to give, you can compromise on what you want it to do, or consider if something else might be better for you.

    18 hours ago, Railattack10 said:

    It's definitely SC4 causing my machine to crash. I'd never had this happen with any other software or games.

    Right, but as has been stated, the entire machine is crashing with it (i.e. Windows). It's really very complicated to explain how Windows shifts processes running on your system between physical RAM and Virtual Memory (on your HDD). In theory, you can use way more RAM than your system has installed, but whether that works or not depends on many factors.

    However you look at it though, whilst playing SC4, your system is unable to cope and falls over. There is no bug or problem native to SC4 that is behind this, likewise it's not like we're saying your computer is faulty either. What it can't handle is running modded SC4, which needs far more resources than the standalone game. In particular, the amount of RAM used by SC4 is much higher using NAM 37/38 than previous versions, but even this isn't straightforward. The RHW codebase was overhauled for NAM37, it has millions of lines more RUL code, all of which must be loaded when starting the game and reside in memory. The other big change, the old installer system we used, was able to automatically run the Controller Compiler, meaning you only got the code needed to run those parts of NAM you were actually using. The Java-based installer can not do this, meaning everyone get's the full controller, whether they need it or not. This has created a situation where many players who could run NAM 36 without issue, can no longer do so with NAM 37+. In fact, for the most part, sans the 4GB Patch, which is a red herring for you, it's not something a 32-bit system can benefit from, the game won't even load without it.

    I guarantee, if you run the Controller Compiler manually, removing the RHW code, you will see a huge difference and most likely the problem will go away. I know this, because I spent a good few hours messing around testing a 32-bit XP system myself, only the other day trying to help another user. In any case, what have you got to loose, 10-20m of your time? But if you want to brush this off as if we don't know what we're talking about, I for one shall not be spending any more of my time responding here. If you don't follow the advice given and report back, then presumably you know what you are doing and can fix this yourself, right?

    Simply put, your argument is akin to asking why your toaster is going wrong, when you've tried to fill it with twice the amount of bread it was designed for. It doesn't matter which application causes the RAM to run out, when it does, something is going to happen. That it's bringing down Windows with it, is simply because at the point it runs out of memory, there does not remain sufficient resources to stop Windows from failing at the same time.

    22 hours ago, Indiana Joe said:

    Our friend here doesn't meet the minimum requirements at all for the NAM, which for a few versions has required 4GB of usable RAM.

    Well, if I can run SC4 + NAM38 on my Sony Vaio P, which is also 32-bit and has only 2GB RAM, so I would have to dispute it not being possible.

    Will we support it officially?, since we're here still replying, I guess we are at least in this case? Although I do generally agree 4GB RAM is far better, specifically in conjunction with a 64-bit OS and the 4GB Patch, so in real terms SC4 can access a total of 2GB memory.

    My Vaio (XP system I mentioned) is from 2007, but is probably far less powerful than the system in question here. It uses a 1.3Ghz under-clocked Atom with Intel GMA450 GPU and a PATA HDD, albeit an SSD. Again though, absolute key to this is reducing the load from the NAM Controller, which means you have to accept you can't use RHW. If this doesn't work for you, I'd recommend keeping NAM36 or earlier, but we don't distribute or support it anymore, so you'd need to have a copy or backup of some kind.

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    I have to take back something I said. I was playing retro GTA games vice city and san andreas(somewhat unrelated but might be important) and have encountered the same problem as SC4 system crashes. I looked in event viewer once again but I think the critical error was when I forced restarted the laptop using the power button. So I think the error before it(event 3008). 

    eventlog31.PNG

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    At this point it looks like you have a general system problem and need to seek more general tech support. 

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    Errors and warnings in the event log are actually pretty typical, they don't necessarily mean something is wrong. Kernel-Power literally means, the PC was switched off unexpectedly, i.e. without properly shutting down the computer first, it doesn't really help you diagnose what is behind it.

    Quote

    In the following example, the only clue Windows gave me was a Kernel Power entry, every time it locked up.

    I suffered from random lock-ups on my previous system for over 2 years and despite being very technically adept, just could not get a straight answer from Windows as to why this was occurring. I hypothesised based on a combination of experience, swapping out known working parts between machines and the symptoms of the problem, that my Motherboard was ultimately responsible. However at that time, money was very tight and I simply could not replace it without being absolutely certain the expenditure was necessary. Although I said many times, if I were looking at this for someone else, I would indeed have concluded replacing the motherboard was necessary. Eventually one day, after it locked up once more, it did not come back on as usual and I was finally able to get the confirmation of what I already knew. The Intel VLM chip, responsible for driving the video output for Intel Integrated GPUs, had finally died, having been problematic and behind all my troubles. The options for its configuration were nowhere to be seen any longer in the BIOS and the Intel video outputs simply no longer worked. The iGPU on the CPU itself still functions just fine and since replacing the board, everything has worked without the old issue. Note I was using dual-GPUs to drive 3 displays between them at the time. Trust me when I say, in all my 20+ years of fixing/diagnosing problems, I have never faced such a difficult and non-obvious problem. Likewise, until it died and everything became obvious, I just couldn't be 100% certain. I'll note too, the mainboard itself in every other way continues to function without error.

    You simply can not look at a problem running one application and assume there is correlation between that and a problem running another. That's not to say there is not or can not be a connection, but it is equally true that they could be totally unrelated too.

    Honestly, I do wonder looking through everything you're experiencing if it's possible your GPU or CPU is overheating. This will cause a lock-up when your computer switches on some electrical protection circuitry to prevent hardware damage. It's pretty much the single most common cause of laptop failure, many of which were not designed with sufficient cooling systems to be pushed to the limits the hardware itself can tolerate. Very often it can happen that the solder of the GPU can become unreliable through heating/cooling causing it to have an incomplete seal after much use. Of course this is just my best guess and if your machine is getting very hot, I might advise you to have it looked at. But given it's value, I wouldn't bother, if there is any sign of hardware failure and you can afford to replace it, do that and save yourself a bunch of hassle. It's rare you can actually permanently fix such problems, ultimately they are design faults and are vastly more common than you might think, since shoddy is the new normal for hardware. That said, that your machine made it this far, suggests it wasn't actually built too badly, but nothing lasts forever. People don't seem to realise, but PC's (electronics), benefit from maintenance just like cars do. Removing any dust and detritus from the fans and cooling system is no bad idea every few years. Of course, that can be very expensive if you can't do it yourself and few laptops are easy to open/service.

    However, before you even consider any of this, have you followed this ridiculously simple step:

    On 13/11/2020 at 9:18 PM, rsc204 said:

    I guarantee, if you run the Controller Compiler manually, removing the RHW code, you will see a huge difference and most likely the problem will go away.

    Because if you aren't listening to any suggestions you are given, in what sense are you asking for our help?

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    My business partner had a perfect comeback to a business owner complaining about needing a new server after the old one died.

    Business Owner: But it (the old server) has been working perfectly for 8 years!

    My partner: Ya know! Everything usually works perfectly --- until it doesn't!

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    On 11/18/2020 at 9:59 AM, rsc204 said:

    Errors and warnings in the event log are actually pretty typical, they don't necessarily mean something is wrong. Kernel-Power literally means, the PC was switched off unexpectedly, i.e. without properly shutting down the computer first, it doesn't really help you diagnose what is behind it.

    You simply can not look at a problem running one application and assume there is correlation between that and a problem running another. That's not to say there is not or can not be a connection, but it is equally true that they could be totally unrelated too.

    Honestly, I do wonder looking through everything you're experiencing if it's possible your GPU or CPU is overheating. This will cause a lock-up when your computer switches on some electrical protection circuitry to prevent hardware damage. It's pretty much the single most common cause of laptop failure, many of which were not designed with sufficient cooling systems to be pushed to the limits the hardware itself can tolerate. Very often it can happen that the solder of the GPU can become unreliable through heating/cooling causing it to have an incomplete seal after much use. Of course this is just my best guess and if your machine is getting very hot, I might advise you to have it looked at. But given it's value, I wouldn't bother, if there is any sign of hardware failure and you can afford to replace it, do that and save yourself a bunch of hassle. It's rare you can actually permanently fix such problems, ultimately they are design faults and are vastly more common than you might think, since shoddy is the new normal for hardware. That said, that your machine made it this far, suggests it wasn't actually built too badly, but nothing lasts forever. People don't seem to realise, but PC's (electronics), benefit from maintenance just like cars do. Removing any dust and detritus from the fans and cooling system is no bad idea every few years. Of course, that can be very expensive if you can't do it yourself and few laptops are easy to open/service.

    However, before you even consider any of this, have you followed this ridiculously simple step:

    Because if you aren't listening to any suggestions you are given, in what sense are you asking for our help?

    To be honest I don't have NAM installed and the instructions provided are unclear(no offense). 

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    1 hour ago, Railattack10 said:

    To be honest I don't have NAM installed and the instructions provided are unclear(no offense). 

    If you do not have the NAM installed, this doesn't apply to you, probably why it doesn't make sense. I think since most people who play SC4 do, most of us have wrongly assumed you would be using the NAM, which has distorted things somewhat.

    I apologise if I came off a little forcefully, but after working professionally in tech support for a number of years, not to mention being very good at tracking down problems, it is incredibly frustrating sometimes to assist people remotely. To have any chance at getting to the bottom of issues, there needs to be clear communication between all parties. Ultimately, there are two ways of going about helping people on forums, you can take the "guess what the problem might be and see if it works out" strategy. Otherwise, you can work through a series of "checks" one by one, in a specific order, until you can determine the root cause of the problem or at least the most likely. Trust me when I say, the latter is the only one that works in cases like this, we simply have to be methodical in our approach. 

    When the communication goes in one direction only, it feels like you are not being listened to. I can tell you, when that happens, you can't really help anyone. Today I'm sitting at my PC and not under anyone's payroll, so when that happens, I can choose to simply walk away. Trust me when I tell you how thoroughly annoying it is when that option is not on the table, I've been there more times than anyone should suffer. Likewise, the information provided may be complicated for those less technically-inclined, this is nothing bad per-se, but if you don't tell us when you don't understand something, vital steps get missed. This all ultimately either wastes a lot of time or distorts the information we can give back to you. So with that out of the way, let's get back to trying to help, which I assure you is my only intention in getting involved in this discussion.

    Frankly, I think we're back to looking at either a resource problem or overheating. Since we can do something about the former, it's probably best to dig into that and see if we can get some concrete information. Your machine is using 2006/7 hardware, so is limited in many respects as to what it can do. SC4 should run fine in theory, being that's it's still 4-5 years older than your system, which would have been half-decent when it was released.

    Q). If you aren't running NAM, can we assume you are not using a huge number, if any, mods with SC4?

    That being the case, the memory requirements for SC4 are not all that high, even if you manage to make bigger cities/regions. So before we do anything else, we need to establish if your RAM is being reserved or used elsewhere, which might prevent SC4 from accessing what it needs. Note too, GTA III would if anything, need more than SC4 to run, so this may apply to both.

    Start your computer from a cold boot, in other words from having been completely off. Don't simply reboot it, or come out of standby/hibernation, it needs to be a clean start to give us an accurate figure. Wait for Windows to load properly, i.e. not just when you get to a usable desktop, give it a few minutes once you get there, without doing anything, to let everything that might be loading in the background finish. If your machine has a HDD indicator light, when that no longer shows the system as busy, it's usually a good indicator that you are there. Now, press the CTRL + ALT + ESC keys together at the same time, which will bring up the Task Manager window. Click on the tab in this window labeled Performance. Under the heading Physical Memory, please tell us the values for the following:

    • Total
    • Available
    • Free

    Lastly, in the bottom right of this window, it lists a percentage for your Physical Memory usage, what is that figure?

    In addition, just to save time once we've got this information, it would help if you'd also post a copy of the configuration log from SC4. Find the folder where SC4 is installed on your machine, enter the Apps folder, here you should find a file named MYCOMPUTERNAME-config-log.txt. Note MYCOMPUTERNAME will show whatever name has been used by Windows for your system, it varies for everyone. Double click to open this, it should appear in Notepad. Copy everything in the file and paste it into your next reply, it will give us a lot of useful data to work with.

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    On 19/11/2020 at 10:10 PM, rsc204 said:

    Now, press the CTRL + ALT + ESC keys together at the same time, which will bring up the Task Manager window. Click on the tab in this window labeled Performance. Under the heading Physical Memory, please tell us the values for the following:

    I have discovered the task manager feature since I was in fifth grade. Also I think you meant control+alt+esc. Here's the screenshot from the task manager performance bar 

    usage12.PNG

     

    my GPU has directX 10 but this time I selected software mode it didn't crash this time(for now). I don't know if SC4 can support DirectX 10.

    sc4launcher32.PNG

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    11 minutes ago, Railattack10 said:

    I have discovered the task manager feature since I was in fifth grade.

    When peeps are helping other peeps they won't know what the other knows so explaining in extra detail helps for those who actually don't know. Then, those who already do can just gloss over the instructions for neophytes and simply do what is needed. *;)

     

    11 minutes ago, Railattack10 said:

    Also I think you meant control+alt+esc.

    "control" is the same as CTRL with the latter being how it's spelled on the majority of keyboards so the original is already correct. *:P

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    5 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:
    20 minutes ago, Railattack10 said:

    Also I think you meant control+alt+esc.

    "control" is the same as CTRL with the latter being how it's spelled on the majority of keyboards so the original is already correct. *:P

    I made a mistake I was suppose to say "Also I think you meant control+shift+esc"

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