Missing items from NAM Tab-Rings (64-Bit Mac users)

[RLope 14]

Moderation notice: To try and keep everything together, three separate threads have been merged together. If you are a Mac user and have recently updated to the 64-Bit version, (both the App Store and Steam are pushing this update), then you will more than likely be having this problem.

 

Hey yall,

So I've played about 200 hours of SC4 from about March. 

I had some issues with plugins causing CTDs a lot, so I reinstalled NAM (as well as the game on Steam) but now I can't see half of the FLUPs, and with underground rail I can't see the entry/exit ramps as I press tab, scrolling through all of the options.

I play on Mac if that's of any relevance. I wonder if anyone else has experience this issue? 

[Tarkus 6,932]

I've heard some reports of some puzzle pieces (including Underground Rail's main portal entrance) not appearing on the new Mac version (Steam's was just updated by Aspyr to be 64-bit a few days ago).  It's a truly bizarre issue, and given that the NAM Team doesn't include any regular Mac users, and we've had zero access to the 64-bit version up until this point, we're at a loss to explain it right now.  That the 64-bit Mac port of the game would seemingly block certain HIDs (the reference numbers used in the RUL0 file, which controls the placement of ploppable network items) is a really strange notion.

Since Steam did update, I should actually be able to access the 64-bit version myself now (only just found out about that update), so I may be able to do some research at last, though I can't guarantee a solution.

I'd also ask . . . are you still running NAM 36, or have you picked up the NAM 37 Release Candidate off SC4 Devotion (which is WAY easier to install on a Mac, provided you have the Java Runtime Environment installed)?  I'd recommend giving it a go with the NAM 37 RC if you're not already running it.

-Tarkus

[RLope 14]

Hey Tarkus, I'm still running NAM 36. I do remember having to update Steam recently. Perhaps that explains it? 

 

I've also been getting CTDs more frequently now, but they're not NAM related. Maybe it is a 64-bit issue. Has there been some discussion here on this issue? 

 

I've actually had issues installing the NAM 36 for Mac version. So I ended up DLing the windows version then running it through wine. 

 

Thanks

[Tarkus 6,932]

Yes, the change to the 64-bit version on the App Store resulted in all of these same issues, so it makes perfect sense it's happened now that Steam has updated as well.  The CTDs you're describing are related to some transit stations--they've been discussed over on the SC4 Mac Users board here.  Those issues were fixed in the NAM 37 RC, thanks to the efforts of @xxdita, so that's all the more reason to upgrade.

I'll note, I'm actually typing this on my Mac Mini--I've gotten the 64-bit Steam port and NAM 37 RC up and running on it now, so I can actually investigate the issues without having to rely on third-party reports.  It does appear that, unfortunately, the same issues you've reported with pieces not showing up are happening with NAM 37 RC as well as with NAM 36.  Since the placement of pieces on TAB Rings is a RUL0 function, I'm thinking there's something very specific and obscure that the 64-bit version doesn't like about those pieces' RUL0 entries.  All the tools I need to investigate that angle work on a Mac, thankfully. 

The other possibility is it's either model or exemplar related.  Exemplars have been implicated in a lot of Mac-specific issues, ever since the Aspyr port went to Universal Binary (a "Beta" of which existed in 2009, IIRC, and it was pushed into the big 2014 update/re-release).  I can't really imagine what exactly would be all that special with those exemplars that they'd potentially cause the TAB Ring and Home/End to skip out on options with the 64-bit Mac port . . . but this is all so inexplicable, anyway, and I suspect it's going to require quite a bit of investigation.  I'm going to attempt to get the Reader up and running via WINE so I can actually edit exemplars on the Mac . . . because ferrying files back and forth between this machine and my Windows desktop is very quickly going to become a tedious pain.

Unless the solution ends up being astonishingly simple (i.e. something I can do in the next couple of days),  it may be that we don't have this fixed for the finalized NAM 37 release.  We're eager to finally kill off NAM 36 once and for all, as from a triage standpoint with respect to the Mac version, in its current state, NAM 37 solves the biggest issues facing users still running NAM 36--the CTDs and the longstanding Mac installation nightmare.  We're planning to go to a much, much quicker release cadence and an Agile-style development paradigm, so NAM 38 won't be anywhere near the almost 3 years it took for NAM 37 to get here.

-Tarkus

[RLope 14]

Yes I was going to say that NAM 37 RC hasn't really "solved" any of the issues in terms of missing pieces - currently I'm just having to work around it. I'll hang around the forum browsing for solutions to be found. 

 

Thanks!

[urbanbabel215 16]

Hi fellow SC4 Mac users, I've noticed a rather curious behavior that seems to coincide with my version of SC4 being updated to 64 bit on Steam: in tabbing through various menu items in the game (for instance, RRW curve puzzle pieces or RHW ramps — basically any items that allow you to tab through variations), the forward tabbing — that is, just pressing tab — seems to skip over every other item. But if I reverse tab (on my MacBook Pro using the Steam game, I press Ctrl+Shift+Tab), the skipped items will appear. I swear it's not user error, as I assumed it must have been when I noticed it yesterday; I've done some purposeful testing and it's a recurring behavior. I upgraded to the NAM 37 RC today and it's been happening there, but it also occurred in NAM 36 after Steam updated the game to the 64-bit version. I never noticed it using NAM 36 prior to that, and it's annoying enough that I think I'd have noticed it before. The 64-bit update is all I can pinpoint in the change in behavior. Has anyone else encountered this and/or have any ideas for a fix or what might be causing it?

To be clear, I fully understand that NAM 36 is no longer being supported and am not looking to initiate any verboten conversation around it; as I stated, I am running the NAM 37 RC and experiencing the issue with that, and only offer the NAM 36 references for context to support why I think it coincided with the 64-bit update of the game on Steam and at first glance seems likely not, for instance, a NAM-related issue. I also profusely apologize if this has been discussed elsewhere (I did try researching the issue prior to posting and didn't come across anything relevant) or if this is not the appropriate place to post this in... a polite redirect or suggestion would be well-received and very much appreciated.

But timid formalities aside, anyone else? Any ideas?

[billy danyne 0]

Hello all! I'm new here and new to NAM 36.  I seem to be missing a lot of the starter pieces.  there is supposed to be 36 pieces I only have like 10

For instance I have no way of making "L0 MIS Starter Piece"  Any Ideas?  Im on Mac btw

 

Thanks

[rsc204 21,815]

I believe the first reports of this we had are from this post with Viaduct Rail, another user also posted with a similar issue for FLUPs here.

The good news is that as per @Tarkus' posts, he now has access to the 64-bit edition of SC4 on Mac. Since diagnosing problems like this would be pretty difficult for anyone not so familiar with RUL0 coding and how the NAM is put together.

It certainly does seem there is a wider issue with Tab-Rings on the latest Mac version though. However, it is the first time I've seen anyone mentioning the work-around of going in reverse order or specifically the "skipping" pieces behaviour. Hopefully the former will at least make these pieces usable in the meantime.

[Tarkus 6,932]

I've just had a chance to check over how the 64-bit Mac port handles (or mishandles) TAB Rings in further detail.  And my findings are that there are issues with pretty much EVERY TAB Ring.  The ones that have been reported thus far are ones with which I don't have as intimate familiarity, so I started investigating ones where I do have familiarity--namely, the RHW FLEXRamps, the NWM Starters and the SAM Starters.  The SAM is a particularly useful case, since each SAM Set is numbered.  Here's the order it goes in with forward TABing: SAM 1, SAM 3, SAM 5, SAM 7, SAM 9, SAM 11, SAM 2, SAM 4, SAM 6, SAM 8, SAM 10.  It basically skips over every other entry in the order, but then goes through the skipped ones at the end.

This seems to work fairly reliably with rings of Starters and/or FLEX items.  The RHW FLEXRamps, likewise, alternates between Ax and Dx ramps, and then finally brings the Bx and Ex ramps in at the end.  Going with Shift-TAB to cycle backwards through the ring seems to produce the same order in reverse.

With straight-up puzzle-based rings, however, things become less reliable, and indeed, the FLUPs ring, which has perhaps the most idiosyncratic design of any TAB Ring in the NAM, I have difficulty getting that Avenue FLUPs Portal to show up reliably when cycling through, regardless of whether or not I'm using TAB or Shift-TAB. I'm going to investigate more TAB Rings to verify their behavioral pattern with the port.

The only thing I can really conclude thus far is that for whatever reason, the 64-bit Mac port reads RUL0 very differently than the Windows (or previous 32-bit Mac port) does.  Unless there's some other aspect of the structure of the RUL0 entries that can explain this new logic, I would say it's reading it incorrectly.  It does appear it can be worked around by the user in most cases, however, should they understand how the 64-bit version handles things differently.  I'll continue my research in the meanwhile.

-Tarkus

Edit: Just did some further testing, and found some very distressing things with the RHW Starter Pieces.  Apparently, this ring does not get back to the "skipped" entries, and as a result, about half of the RHW's network starters seem to be completely inaccessible, including all forms of the RHW-8S.  Something is REALLY weird with the RUL0 handling with the new 64-bit port.  Fixing it on our end appears to be possible, but difficult/tedious--we'd have to figure out just how each TAB Ring is misbehaving and compensate for it with Mac-specific versions of all the TAB Loop programming. I may see if Aspyr is willing to help.

[Monkbeard 5]

Hi,

I’ve been having the same problem so saw this when searching for a solution. Cycling through the options using ctrl + tab instead of only tab finds the missing options for me. Hope that helps.

[rsc204 21,815]

2 hours ago, Tarkus said:

The only thing I can really conclude thus far is that for whatever reason, the 64-bit Mac port reads RUL0 very differently than the Windows (or previous 32-bit Mac port) does.  Unless there's some other aspect of the structure of the RUL0 entries that can explain this new logic, I would say it's reading it incorrectly.  It does appear it can be worked around by the user in most cases, however, should they understand how the 64-bit version handles things differently.  I'll continue my research in the meanwhile.

...

I may see if Aspyr is willing to help.

Yes, I was thinking about that too. Most of the current issues can be put down to Custom Content causing them, but if the game itself can be proven to be buggy, it puts the onus on Aspyr to resolve it. Since neither they nor EA are obliged in any way to support modding with SC4, if this only affects NAM, who knows which side they will see that.

Tab-rings are such a non-event in the base game, to the point I can hardly recall any, perhaps with the exception of the Toll Booth and MHY Interchanges. If we can find something in the basic game that's not working, it will strengthen our case it's a bug.

[urbanbabel215 16]

I'm glad to hear I'm not going crazy.

FWIW regarding the FLUPs and the RHW starters you mentioned, I'm pretty sure I've been able to access the full set still in NAM 37 RC. In addition to fully cycling or reverse cycling through the Tab ring, I sometimes need to rotate through individual pieces (on my MacBook Pro, function+left/right key) to get access to the full spectrum. To be honest, I think it's always been this way on my machine with the FLUPs in my experience, and I thought that was by design. (For instance, tabbing never offered access to road and one-way road FLUPs separately — I've always selected what I thought was a general 'road FLUP' and then rotate through the various directions of one-way inbound, one-way outbound, and two-way until I found what I wanted — and the same with the street FLUPs and street tunnels. It was always particularly pronounced with underground FLUP routes.) It's just been recently that it seems to happen with everything. So for the RHW starter pieces, all mine seem to be grouped by C sets when forward tabbing through the ring. If I land on the RHW 8C starter piece and reverse tab once, it will give me the RHW 8S.

[RLope 14]

9 hours ago, Monkbeard said:

Hi,

I’ve been having the same problem so saw this when searching for a solution. Cycling through the options using ctrl + tab instead of only tab finds the missing options for me. Hope that helps.

Hey, 

It seems like this works for me for roads. Doesn't work for FLUPs though? 

 

Could you confirm it works with FLUPs, underground rail, and all kinds of NAM items that require cycling using tab? 

Thanks

[dc'smycity 30]

I'll throw out that I've experienced this when looking for the WRHW-2 to RHW-2 width transition earlier. I have yet to find a way to get it to appear in the tabring, which seems to support the idea that missing puzzle pieces aren't as easy to work around as FLEX-bases pieces (though it may also simply indicate that I haven't tried enough combinations yet).

[rsc204 21,815]

@billy danyne: Just 'paging' you to check out this thread, since I've merged three similar issues into this one. As you can see, there is a general issues for Mac 64-bit players, although right now we're still looking into a fix. In the meantime, perhaps going backwards through the menu's, as others have had some success with, works for you?

[Tarkus 6,932]

I'll note that in my efforts to backwards TAB through with Shift-TAB, I haven't been able to get the missing items to show up.  I've heard of some other users using different methods to reverse cycle through the loop, so I may experiment with it some more.

I sent Aspyr a rather lengthy and technical email about the nature of the issue yesterday.  Maxis did in fact use both RotationRing and AddTypes entries in the vanilla copy of RUL0, so the TAB functionality has been there all along (at least since Rush Hour/Deluxe was released).  Here's the extent of what all Maxis had defined in that section of RUL0:

[Ordering]
;Clovers
RotationRing        = 1020, 1021, 1022, 1023, 1024, 1025            ;elevated highway
AddTypes            = 3140, 3141, 3142, 3143, 3144, 3145            ;ground highway

;T-intersections
RotationRing        = 2000, 2001, 2051, 2002, 2003, 2052, 2004, 2005, 2053, 2006, 2007, 2050        ;el3 / el3offset
AddTypes            = 2010, 2011, 2059, 2012, 2013, 205A, 2014, 2015, 205B, 2016, 2017, 2058        ;gh3 / gh3offset
AddTypes            = 2020, 2029, 2049, 2021, 202A, 204A, 2022, 202B, 204B, 2023, 2028, 2048        ;el2gh1
AddTypes            = 2030, 2039, 2041, 2031, 203A, 2042, 2032, 203B, 2043, 2033, 2038, 2040        ;el1gh2

;Parallel ramp
RotationRing        = 1000, 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007        ;elevated highway <-> road
AddTypes            = 2080, 2081, 2082, 2083, 2084, 2085, 2086, 2087        ;ground highway <-> road
AddTypes            = 2110, 2111, 2112, 2113, 2114, 2115, 2116, 2117        ;elevated highway <-> avenue
AddTypes            = 2130, 2131, 2132, 2133, 2134, 2135, 2136, 2137        ;ground highway <-> avenue
AddTypes            = 3000, 3001, 3002, 3003, 3004, 3005, 3006, 3007        ;elevated highway <-> one way road forward
AddTypes            = 3010, 3011, 3012, 3013, 3014, 3015, 3016, 3017        ;elevated highway <-> one way road reverse
AddTypes            = 3020, 3021, 3022, 3023, 3024, 3025, 3026, 3027        ;ground highway <-> one way road forward
AddTypes            = 3030, 3031, 3032, 3033, 3034, 3035, 3036, 3037        ;ground highway <-> one way road reverse

;Perpendicular ramp
RotationRing        = 1010, 1011, 1018, 1012, 1013, 101B, 1014, 1015, 101A, 1016, 1017, 1019        ;elevated highway <-> road
AddTypes            = 2090, 2091, 2098, 2092, 2093, 209B, 2094, 2095, 209A, 2096, 2097, 2099        ;ground highway <-> road
AddTypes            = 2100, 2140, 2141, 2101, 2142, 2143, 2108, 2148, 2149, 2109, 214A, 214B        ;elevated highway <-> avenue
AddTypes            = 2120, 2121, 2122, 2123, 2124, 2125, 2128, 2129, 212A, 212B, 212C, 212D        ;ground highway <-> avenue
AddTypes            = 3100, 3101, 3108, 3102, 3103, 310B, 3104, 3105, 310A, 3106, 3107, 3109        ;elevated highway <-> one way road forward
AddTypes            = 3110, 3111, 3118, 3112, 3113, 311B, 3114, 3115, 311A, 3116, 3117, 3119        ;elevated highway <-> one way road reverse
AddTypes            = 3120, 3121, 3128, 3122, 3123, 312B, 3124, 3125, 312A, 3126, 3127, 3129        ;ground highway <-> one way road forward
AddTypes            = 3130, 3131, 3138, 3132, 3133, 313B, 3134, 3135, 313A, 3136, 3137, 3139        ;ground highway <-> one way road reverse

I may do a vanilla test to see if I can in fact trigger the same issues with the Maxis content.  One hypothesis I have is that it's possible the 64-bit version doesn't like 5-digit (or 6-digit) HIDs . . . had daeley not discovered those can work with the game well over a decade ago, we actually would have run out of HIDs (and that was actually part of the big push toward draggable items back then).

-Tarkus

 

Edit: Just did some additional experimentation.  While Shift-TAB still seems to be getting me the borked TAB results in reverse, I did just try another user's suggestion of Ctrl-TAB, and it turns out this produces the same results as forward TABing on Windows--every piece is accessible.  By extension, Shift-Ctrl-TAB yields all the pieces in reverse.  Apparently, we'll simply have to instruct the Mac userbase to add the Ctrl key to achieve correct cycling through the items in the TAB loop.  I've investigated the KEYCFG files in SimCity_1.dat for the Mac version, and it does not appear it's specified there, so it's something in the executable itself that's requiring the Ctrl key be added.  Why Aspyr did this, I'm not sure.

[Monkbeard 5]

On 26/05/2020 at 12:52 AM, RLope said:

Hey, 

It seems like this works for me for roads. Doesn't work for FLUPs though? 

 

Could you confirm it works with FLUPs, underground rail, and all kinds of NAM items that require cycling using tab? 

Thanks

Yes, for me it finds all FLUPS. Haven't checked everything but all the menu items I have checked have all the listed items in the NAM documentation when I use ctrl + tab (and rotation when necessary).

[RLope 14]

Thanks to all, especially Tarkus, for finding solutions to this problem. 

[Wiimeiser 444]

Maybe the code was overlooked because it was never intended to be used? Same with MMPs on Windows 10? In the vanilla game buttons only ever have one thing on them except the Toll Booth (Interchanges technically, I guess, but no tabbing required) with even the MMPs not having even rotation variations... Seems like a job for SimMaster...

[powl 12]

WOW! Just came across this, having trouble with those missing items for months!!!
Thank you so much for finding out about this solution.