Train Station behaving oddly (tds29_TerminalStation)

[tails2489 350]

Does anyone have this train station in use in their cities? It's called tds29_TerminalStation and I love the design. Unfortunately in the game it acts very weird. Capacity is only 1000 when the website I downloaded it from states 25000. Also it keeps "rebuilding" from the ground up with scaffolding surrounding it from time to time. And then finally after a year or two of in-game time passing the station just disappears and all that is left behind are tiles that cannot be demolished. I thankfully haven't ever save my city tile after it's gone passed this stage but I really don't want to give up on this station, I've had it in my plugins forever and have finally found the perfect spot to place it. Any ideas??

  Edited February 11, 2020 by Cyclone Boom  
Moved to a new topic here in the CC forum. I think you might receive more replies in here from those knowledgeable. ;)

[xxdita 1,097]

The download page doesn't look like an exchange I recognize. But if you can get a link, I'll take a look at the file and try to see what's going on with it. 

[gwada971 1,891]

Hi, terminal station from Tadasu here: http://tsushinikai.com/simcity4/

[xxdita 1,097]

Thanks for the link, @gwada971. New SC4 sites are always an adventure. 

I didn't catch it rebuilding, but I definitely see what you're talking about, @tails2489.  

Oddly enough, with two stations plopped, only the one on the north side, that I wasn't watching as closely of course, went full nutso. Vanishing building, immortal lot... and I wasn't even able to get anyone actually using it, though they like to use it as a shortcut. 

I really don't want to have to redo the transit enabling for a new lot, so I'm gonna up the capacity to 25,000 as advertised and add a minor TSEC to reduce shortcutting. A quick recompute in PIMX will guarantee MAC compatibility as well. Let me check it out in-game again and see if that actually fixes it. 

[xxdita 1,097]

I just don't have any cities set up to use rail to do a full and proper test. But I have made a new building desc and cloned the lot, including transit-enabling with PIMX. The building seems to be stable and I've had no problem demolishing the lot. I used a filling degree of 0.725 in order to get the 25,000 capacity. This will increase all other values, including Plop Cost, proportionately. Plop cost is now 4400 for the lot. 

I'll forego adding a TSEC, as I'm not confident about the math for that. 

The attached file is entirely new, so it will not override the original lot or desc. I also used the icon provided by PIMX, so you will see the difference in your menu. 

So try the new lot out and make sure it works. If there's any problems with it, let me know. 

PLOP_4x12_tds29_TerminalStation_Diag_xx_5bca027d.zip

[tails2489 350]

Hey I really appreciate all your efforts, I was very excited to get your response and try out the new lot. Unfortunately I am having the same results. New icon was present in the menu screen and updated capacity to 25000 was also there. Same weird behavior and ultimately disappearing.

 

 

[xxdita 1,097]

Wow. Ok. So it's probably something to do with the model file itself. Maybe @rsc204 can take a look at it?

[xxdita 1,097]

Also, this may be helpful if you should save your game after the building disintegrates. 

[rsc204 21,808]

2 hours ago, xxdita said:

Wow. Ok. So it's probably something to do with the model file itself. Maybe @rsc204 can take a look at it?

I can’t think of an error in the model that could lead to such a problem, i’m sure any error is most likely in the Buildings Exemplar somehow. Sure PIMX will recalculate certain values, but it likely wouldn’t flag or alter any invalid properties.

I’ll take a look at the files, but it’s often just quickest to completely make the lot files from scratch. Especially when you’ve got such quirky behaviour, it suggests it’d benefit from starting with known good basis. Then you can copy/paste the LotConfig data, so it’s not a huge amount of work. I’ll see where things stand before getting too into that.

[xxdita 1,097]

11 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

I can’t think of an error in the model that could lead to such a problem, i’m sure any error is most likely in the Buildings Exemplar somehow. Sure PIMX will recalculate certain values, but it likely wouldn’t flag or alter any invalid properties.

I’ll take a look at the files, but it’s often just quickest to completely make the lot files from scratch. Especially when you’ve got such quirky behaviour, it suggests it’d benefit from starting with known good basis. Then you can copy/paste the LotConfig data, so it’s not a huge amount of work. I’ll see where things stand before getting too into that.

That's exactly what I did. My attached file is an exact clone of the original lot, aside from the actual building desc used. I did try the recompute method first, with no change in the model's behavior. I had hoped a fresh building desc and lot would make a difference, but no such luck. 

It's not just certain angles missing, or certain zooms. The model totally vanishes, like a timed prop. That just doesn't make sense for a whole building. And the original was a proper building, not a blank. 

[xxdita 1,097]

I did not have problems with the file I attached earlier. Though I only ran the city for 5 years at cheetah. I just tested with a totally new lot, without any of the lotting or TE copied over. 

But I will note that the original building does not consistently vanish for me. And the cloned lot I made has not done so for me either. I don't see anything else that would point in the direction of a TGI conflict, but I'm going to run DataNode just to be safe. 

Update: no conflicts found on my machine for the model file. As expected. 

[tails2489 350]

Can the issue be at all related to the other lots or zoned areas that border the station? I get the same problem of the disappearing building when I unzone the commercial zone right up against it.

[xxdita 1,097]

I have never seen this before, honestly, so I'm not going to rule anything out without verifying it first. 

But you do raise a point. I've created a 3rd lot now, with none of the lotting or TE copied over. Having all 3 lots plopped with an avenue between each, none of the 3 vanished. But there were no zoned buildings growing next to any of the 3. So it seems I need to look at what having zones adjacent will do. So back in a few... 

[xxdita 1,097]

And now I'm more confused. Testing all 3 lots, with commercial zoning in between, and on the far side of the original, only 1 of the 3 buildings vanished. And that's the one I posted here earlier. So I am running out of ideas. 

I don't have much experience with transit enabling lots visually, but I've never seen or heard of this issue happening with TE'd lots. That's why I went ahead and created the third lot without any of the extras added yet. 

I would like to get to the bottom of this, but there are just so many things I know to try. 

[xxdita 1,097]

There's nothing consistent about how the building vanishes. I'm going to attach the freshly created lot which includes the building desc as well. This has no props or transit enabling copied from the original. And again, as a new lot, it will be completely unique from the other two. 

You won't be able to visually connect the rail, but that does nothing for function anyway. So take this lot, give it a go. If it still has problems, then all I can think is that it's somehow the model. If not, then we'll try it with the props added. If that still works, then all that remains is the transit enabling. 

This lot will use the same icon as the earlier one I posted, but you'll see 2ndtry added to the end of the item name. And the item description will say "This building was made by a typing monkey", which is the default item description for PIMX creations. 

PLOP_4x12_tds29_TerminalStation_Diag_2ndtry_6bcab6c6.SC4Lot

[tails2489 350]

OK fingers crossed!

[tails2489 350]

Yes! This seems to have worked! No more constant rebuilding and then vanishing. I definitely notice the base texture has changed.. as you mentioned there's no props so I think that is why, and no connected rail lines.

I'm curious about your comment:

"You won't be able to visually connect the rail, but that does nothing for function anyway."

Is this true of all stations? Is this how the Maxis default station works? As long as any part of the lot is bordered by rail it will function?

[xxdita 1,097]

Yes. There are differences between functional and visual mechanics. 

Function depends on the proper Transit Switch Points being set up. You'll probably notice that the last version of the lot will let trains go through from all sides, instead of just where you see the rail lines. This can be changed to match up to the proper side, but I was more concerned with figuring out what was going on with the model. 

The visuals are set by Transit Enabling the lot, usually by using SC4Tool. This creates the network paths to connect the lot to the outside network visually, so that you can see the trains arrive and depart on the lot itself. This can be done anytime you have a lot using a transit network, even if it isn't a station. 

And actually, typing all of this out may have given me inspiration to fix another issue that's been plaguing custom content all these years. Gonna need to type all that out in another thread, then do some testing. 

[rsc204 21,808]

On 18/02/2020 at 5:38 PM, tails2489 said:

Yes! This seems to have worked! No more constant rebuilding and then vanishing.

21 hours ago, xxdita said:

Function depends on the proper Transit Switch Points being set up. You'll probably notice that the last version of the lot will let trains go through from all sides, instead of just where you see the rail lines. This can be changed to match up to the proper side, but I was more concerned with figuring out what was going on with the model. 

Having looked at this a little myself, I don't see anything technically wrong with the model. Like you I just placed it on a blank lot afresh and all seems well. The most apparent issue comes from the specific dimensions of the model, given the tracks need to line up in a very specific spot in the lot. You can overhang a Building, but it can come with problems and I think where it is given the Occupant Size of only half it's actual width, in order to line it up (overhanging model), is why it's acting weird. There may be more still that needs fixing in relation to the Transit Enabling / Modding side of things.

I think in this situation it's probably better to offset the actual model, rather than have it centred, so it can fit the lot better. Failing that it may need to be made into a Prop instead (the model). Either way once that's in place, manually adding some textures/props and the necessary TE modding shouldn't pose an issue. We can't simply copy/paste them from the original, because it seems somewhere there lurks other problems. But with a little cross referencing, some props at least could be copy/pasted, you just need to interpret the LotConfigLotObject data. That's something I will take a look at if no one beats me too it, but the main point to take away here is that there is nothing functionally broken with the SC4Model. Provided any new lotting doesn't repeat or copy the issues from the original, there is no reason why this can't be remade into a fully working station, that should work as per the author's original intended idea.

[tails2489 350]

Hello, I've encountered a similar problem with an office building in an old city I am currently re-working and fixing up. The lot in question is @kellydale2003's awesome Eighth Avenue Place. I plopped two of the across the street from each other when doing a bunch of work on the city while on pause. When I pressed play one of them disappeared within a month of time on the fastest speed and I cannot demolish the base that's left.

Do you think this is related to the issue I had before and in that case is there something wrong with the way my game is functioning or something in my plugins folder is causing this? As opposed to an issue with the two lots themselves that have acted oddly.

Also, this is probably not the issue but I find it curious that I first discovered what prop prox was from making a city recreation of Calgary and of course plopped everything I could find on the Exchange from Calgary in to that city. Now in this case I am using an old Vancouver based city but am plopping not only Vancouver lots but anything I can find from Western Canada in to it, including all the same Calgary lots. Can one of these Calgary landmarks be the causing the same issue in this city as my previous one???

[xxdita 1,097]

Confirming a poxed prop would require looking at your city's save game. From what we know, it's a very specific thing that causes prop pox, and I haven't come across any reports of such a thing in any of kellydale's uploads. 

You can install SC4Fix to correct the Prop Pox issue, and to prevent it in future cities. 

I really have no explanation for the way these buildings are crumbling. I've never seen this before, and I have seen a lot of shoddy modding in my time. It may be the same cause for both buildings falling apart, but I don't believe it's anything on your end. So it shouldn't be a regular concern. You're just (un)lucky enough to discover the same problem with different buildings. 

Do you have a link to this building? 

[JP Schriefer 5,590]

Looks like Kellydale's file has indeed an immortal lot problem. Just tested it in-game and confirmed it. Also checking on PIM-X, my new favorite program

this is what we have:

[xxdita 1,097]

That's just weird. the LOD seems overly large. Yeah, definitely an immortal lot. 

The way to fix this would be to either enlarge the lot, or swap the building to a prop and use an invisible building instead. Visually, I'd suggest going the prop route, as the actual model may look awkward on a larger lot. 

[JP Schriefer 5,590]

Yeah what I noticed with the LODs there is that rotating the building by 90 degrees, it will perfectly fit into the lot, so probably Kellydale rotated the model or the LODs before exporting and forgot to rotate the other.

On the file's page Kelly said: "This was originally just a test export. But since the 3dsmax files have become corrupt, I can no longer finish the model. So, you'll notice details about the building a different and a few incomplete things here and there. Just thought I'd upload it as is rather than it go to the graveyard.". I'll send a message to him and add a warning on the file's link.

Meanwhile @tails2489, you can use this awesome lot to kill the immortal lot https://www.sc4devotion.com/csxlex/lex_filedesc.php?lotGET=2356

 

[xxdita 1,097]

I've made a new lot, changing the building to a prop, but keeping the original values and lotting intact as much as possible. When using an invisible building, you have to adjust the stats manually. 

 

[tails2489 350]

Hey thanks so much for the replies and providing the new link. I'll give it a shot later on when I get back in the game. I didn't think this was prop pox but just thought it was curious that out of the 3 or 4 really odd issues I've run in to while playing over the years 2 of them involved a bunch of plopped Calgary lots and the first instance was definitely prop pox. Just a coincidence though it seems. Thanks again for your awesome help!

[xxdita 1,097]

Apparently, what you're experiencing is going to be standard for immortal lots, at least when a new building grows next to it after. Or, it can happen to a building that is plopped after the immortal lot is placed or grown, if the building models are trying to occupy the same space. Demolishing the lot that isn't immortal will also lead to the immortal lot's building vanishing the way we've seen with the models in this thread, leaving behind the base texture, with no query possible. 

This isn't the way I remember immortal lots behaving, but then with as much as computer graphics have changed over the last decade, I'm not surprised some things got weirder. 

[rsc204 21,808]

On 03/05/2020 at 12:43 AM, JP Schriefer said:

Yeah what I noticed with the LODs there is that rotating the building by 90 degrees, it will perfectly fit into the lot, so probably Kellydale rotated the model or the LODs before exporting and forgot to rotate the other.

Certainly the model sounds like it just needed rotating 90 degrees. But, if the LODs were exported like this, then the UV mapping would be incredibly screwed up. Because the textures for the two longer (wider) sides, would now be mapped to planes for the smaller ones and vice-versa.

Seems to me, someone manually entered the occupant size somewhere and in the process mixed the Length and Width values up. Using an invisible model shouldn't be necessary, just adjusting the Occupant Size, which PIM-X should fix automatically if you start with a new Buildings Exemplar. Not that using the invisible model isn't a perfectly satisfactory solution. Since I guess again PIM-X would have fixed the Occupant Size when it was made into a Prop in just the same manner.

However, if you don't replace the Building on the Lot, which is impossible without a new Buildings Exemplar in PIM-X, the actual Hex values for the Occupant Size will remain in the equivalent LotConfig entry, and subsequently "reserve" space in-game. Manually changing this a PITA, mainly because you need to convert these figures into Hex to edit the Reps holding these values. Again, much easier to just make a fresh Building/LotConfig pair, then use PIM-X's copy/paste feature to restore and Textures/Props so you don't have to remake everything.

[tails2489 350]

Very interesting, you guys have gone above and beyond my knowledge of how the game works but it's still cool to read all the updates in this thread. I believe the newly edited building is working much better. No weird disappearing.

 

[tails2489 350]

Any chance you could work your magic again?? Looks like the same issue with immortal lot. Many thanks.