4gb_patch?

[huzman 445]

Found this patch but I'm not sure about it. If you know and/or installed it, could  you share your opinions?

I have an old dedicated XP and a newer Win8.1 one.

[CorinaMarie 29,898]

As I recall it won't do a thing for old 32 bit XP, but it might work with XP 64 bit. For Win 7 and up I believe it'll be fine. I'm sure it's a really good idea cause NAM adds the 4 gb flag as part of its own install. That suggests to me that everyone should have it.

[huzman 445]

52 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

it might work with XP 64 bit.

I was hoping for that. I was hoping for the 64 bit to work and your suggestion points that way. Merci Mlle!

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

Below is a quote from the NAM 'read-first-nam36.html' found in the 'NAM Auxillary Files/Documentation' folder in your 'User/Documents/SimCity 4' folder.  (This is the readme to read before installing.)

"To that end, the NAM includes a "4GB Patch", also known as a "Large Address Aware (LAA) Patch", which allows the game to access the full 4GB of RAM that a 32-bit application can read, instead of the default 2GB."

I've installed NAM 36 and observed the patch, the installer patches 'SimCity 4.exe' and makes a backup copy of the original file named 'SimCity 4.exe.Backup'.  Both files are 7.17 MB (7,524,352 bytes) so only the Large Address switch is set, nothing else added or observably changed.

The Task Manger in Windows 8.1 shows that SC4 is using memory above 2GB. 

Thanks to the NAM team for this patch. I will enjoy using SC4 as if new again with the expanded memory.

[huzman 445]

36 minutes ago, RandyE said:

Thanks to the NAM team for this patch.

I completely missed that. Then again, I haven't finished reading all those readme files from the NAM 36. Of course that's no excuse. I found the 4gb_patch elsewhere, was tickled by it hence my question. I thank you a lot for your comment.

[RobertLM78 1,598]

Ach... I'm pretty sure my XP is 32-bit.   Though I suppose I could boot into 7 as that's 64-bit.... but that's a lot of hassle and having to deal with a real Windoze. 

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

37 minutes ago, RobertLM78 said:

I'm pretty sure my XP is 32-bit. 

It makes sense to me that a switch that allows a 32-bit program to access 4GB of RAM should work on a 32-bit system with 4GB of RAM, but I don't have a 32-bit OS to test.  If it doesn't hopefully @rsc204 will correct me if I'm wrong as usual

[CorinaMarie 29,898]

31 minutes ago, RandyE said:

It makes sense to me that a switch that allows a 32-bit program to access 4GB of RAM should work on a 32-bit system with 4GB of RAM, but I don't have a 32-bit OS to test.  If it doesn't hopefully @rsc204 will correct me if I'm wrong as usual

It's been a long, long time since I was concerned with ram and 32 bit XP, but as I recall it can only access 2 gb on most systems similar in age to the OS. I had a comp which I did a couple day burn-in diagnostic with 3 gb and it passed just fine. Try to boot XP (which worked fine with 2 gb) and BSOD every time. (Could just be something where the MB and XP didn't chat well and maybe later systems fixed that.)

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

42 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

ram and 32 bit XP, but as I recall it can only access 2 gb on most systems similar in age to the OS

Here's what I found quoted below, I remember now installing 4GB on XP and I got the 3GB worth of memory, but the extra was wasted space.   The 2GB limit is for a process, so SC4 would still be limited to 2GB even if the switch were enabled, but looks like its possible to change a setting so it could use 3GB.
_______________________

"32 bit Windows XP has two well-known memory limits. Each process is limited to 2GB of memory (or 3GB if you change a setting). The maximum memory that Windows XP will use in total is 3.25GB.

There is no fundamental 4GB limit for memory in 32 bit operating systems - Windows Server 2003 can use more than 4GB. The key limit that defines a 32-bit system is per-process (the virtual address space for one particular application). This is the reason for the 2GB/3GB per-process limit in Windows XP, which is also shared by Windows 2003 Server."

https://superuser.com/questions/292207/is-there-any-way-to-use-memory-above-3-25gb-using-windows-xp

[rsc204 21,867]

XP in 32-bit guise can technically access 4GB of memory in total, but in real terms most users will only see about 3GB of usable RAM as a maximum. If you are running XP on a system with much more memory than this, simply do yourself a favour and upgrade to Windows 7, it's more stable than WinXP in many ways, not to mention as of today still secure, XP is like Swiss Cheese in that department.

The so called 4GB patch doesn't really allow SC4 (or any 32-bit application) to use 4GB of memory either, not that I imagine the application would be stable if you got close to that limit anyhow. It simply tells the OS to more efficiently manage the memory so practically speaking SC4 doesn't get pushed into Virtual Memory which causes instability.

The only way to completely bypass the limits is to have a 64-bit application which can access more memory, but this isn't a practical, since it will never happen.

10 hours ago, RandyE said:

It makes sense to me that a switch that allows a 32-bit program to access 4GB of RAM should work on a 32-bit system with 4GB of RAM

Sadly not, because the O/S limits of 32-bit systems will not work that way. You need a 64-bit OS to take advantage of this particular setting. There are other ways to optimise RAM for 32-bit systems, but they are much more complex. Not to mention, why would you be using a 32-bit system with 4GB or more of RAM, it's pretty much going to waste.

[huzman 445]

10 hours ago, rsc204 said:

simply do yourself a favour and upgrade to Windows 7

I was under the impression that XP was the ideal OS for running SC. As you noticed, I have a XP machine dedicated to SC and a newer comp with WIN8.1 for everything else. In fact, SC under WIN8.1 runs fine with no CTDs, but a lot of features won't work. SC with Windows 7? That's interesting...

  Edited September 15, 2017 by huzman  
clarification

[RobertLM78 1,598]

2 minutes ago, huzman said:

SC with Windows 7? That's interesting...

I'm pretty sure I was running it on 7 with no issues when I first got this machine - that was just during my transition to Linux but before discovering Virtualbox. 

[CorinaMarie 29,898]

13 minutes ago, huzman said:

SC with Windows 7?

I'm pretty sure peeps run SC4 on 7 to 10 with little to no trouble. (I still run my game under XP since I have a very small plugins folder.) It does seem many of the auxiliary programs require jumping thru hoops to get them to run beyond XP. (That latter observation is based on various threads I've run across in the past year and a half.)

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

35 minutes ago, huzman said:

SC under WIN8.1 runs fine with no CTDs, but a lot of features won't work.

I'm also using WIN8.1 with no problems at all.  What features won't work?   These may be issues not with the O/S.    

I played SC4 first on XP, then Vista.  That was before I knew anything about Simtropolis or user-created content or the 1 CPU limit.  Now on 7 and 8.1 without any problems.  The game is amazingly stable I find and never overloads the CPU or conflicts with the graphics controllers I've had in my machines.    I suppose I was just meant to play SC4 forever   (maybe we should start a thread discussing SC4 and various O/Ss?)

[Fantozzi 4,068]

I think @rsc204 is right and Win7 would go over XP - if I remember right it was with the introducion of Win7 they changed something on process handling the whole system wouldn't freeze anymore when one program did crash.  Also Win7 still had some respect for 32bit applications while the succesors more and more leave the 32bit and single core era behind. 

The 4GB patch doesn't free memory nor does it add memory in a magical way. The space below 4GB is the space of the operating system at the first place. To avoid conflicts 32bit windows software was told not to allocate memory space where the operating system is the king. Therefore the OS gets a reserved space there, were SC4 needs to run. So they are divided - like the royals are devided from the ordinary folks.

The split by default is 2GB for the OS (royals), 2GB for the applications (folk). BUT  - if on startup there are processes like virus scanners, updatecheckers etc. started - they are applications (folk) using the same memory space also SC4 (ordinary folk) would use! This is important to understand - the adress space below 4GB again is separated into two areas. But this doesn't mean the applications area is all available - the OS might launch applications on startup adressing this space already. Therefore you can't be shure the theoretically available memory is the effective.

Now what to do - no matter if the OS is 64 or 32, you can tell the system to split up the whole thing different. 1GB for the OS, 3GB for the applications. This may lead the OS to swap instead the applications which will make some services of the OS slower - which often isn't as critical.

[EDIT] - I forgot to mention here that Win7 runs fine with only 1GB memory space. I read windows 10 rquires more reserved memory, almost 2GB. To my understanding this would mean the 4GB patch on windows 10 wouldn't be a really good idear as it would slow down the OS. Does somebody knows about Win10 and the patch?

Imagine those 4 GB like the entrance hall of a palace with a big gate - many people can very fast get in. From there to the rooms the doors are smaller and made for less public traffic. But the ordinary people coming in the castle should never block the doorway for the king. So they aren't allowed to walk in the middle where the red carpet is but they have to stay away from the area with the red carpet where the king and his entourage is marching.

It doesn't matter if the king is 32 or 64 bit wide he always allocates and reserves the same space in memory - the carpet is reserved and no matter how much you patch, it stays reserved. What you do is to make the carpet wide or narrow. To make the ordinary folk pass easier. But OS doesn't act social and says "oh, you poor old application can't run in the upper floor? So I go upstairs instead. Instead the king says: you join me in my palace? So stay off the carpet where I am!"

So 32bit software is told to use only 2GB or at maximum 3GB and to not touch the OS's space. So the name 4GB patch is way missleading because there aren't 4GB free to use. The switch is: 2 or 3.

Now many applications of the old era are very well educated. Before there was even an option to narrow the carpet they were programmed to use the 2GB adress range and nothing else. So even if you turn the switch to 3GB - they won't do nothing - they stay there even the carpet went more narrow. They are so damn well educated! Even if you tell them to take their freedom to walk the extra space they prefer to stay caged. Stupid folk!

So you have to patch them to make them use the additional room. So there's were it becomes necessary to patch the single software and why it isn't enough to simple turn the general lever. And that's the reason why not every 32bit application can profit the same way from a different splitting - it depends on their individual education (programming).

Now - me I don't know why the patch for SC4 wouldn't work for 32bit windows. You know you patch the application - and the application is SC4 and there is only a 32bit version of SC4. So it shouldn't make any difference if the OP is 32bit or 64bit. But if they say so .. there might be a reason. I simply don't understand.

 

 

[huzman 445]

8 hours ago, RandyE said:

What features won't work?

It's all within SC4. When I was looking into the seasonal flora -mostly girafe's- I could not go beyond 3 clicks, they were meant to go to 4 and even 5 clicks. That's just one instance that I remember. Which is very curious. So I do most of my playing in my good old XP.

[markussaage 762]

11 hours ago, huzman said:

 SC with Windows 7? That's interesting...

I use Windows 7 x64 since its release, and SimCity 4 runs like a charme on it, so does every tool, that you might need to mod/repair/analyze game files. It also works on a 64 bit Windows 10 machine, so the tools. It really doesn't matter. But I guess, it depends a lot on the hardware you have, and as long as you configure SC4 properly you'll be fine.

Kind regards!

[huzman 445]

3 hours ago, markussaage said:

It really doesn't matter.

That seems to the general idea. It also seems curious that there is a patch for the 4gb thing, and that mod that makes windows 7, 8 and 10 run like XP. And such.

[markussaage 762]

20 hours ago, huzman said:

That seems to the general idea. It also seems curious that there is a patch for the 4gb thing, and that mod that makes windows 7, 8 and 10 run like XP. And such.

I think, you mean the Windows compatibility mode?! I don't use that, I run SC4 in native mode with standard user privileges in both Windows 7 and 10. For the SC4 tools like iLive's Reader, LotEditor, PIM-X, SC4 Tool etc etc I granted my standard user Read and Execute permissions for the installation folder, where I installed the tools. That's it, but this folder only.

Kind regards!

[huzman 445]

6 hours ago, markussaage said:

I don't use that,

Neither do I..

 

6 hours ago, markussaage said:

For the SC4 tools like iLive's Reader, LotEditor, PIM-X, SC4 Tool etc

Here, I'm not following you. Do you use Reader and Execute within Win7 and 10? That would be a number. Merci for your feedback.

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

On ‎2017‎-‎09‎-‎16 at 1:49 AM, huzman said:

It's all within SC4. When I was looking into the seasonal flora -mostly girafe's- I could not go beyond 3 clicks, they were meant to go to 4 and even 5 clicks. That's just one instance that I remember. Which is very curious. So I do most of my playing in my good old XP.

There's a few directions to go to debug this, so as its a complete mystery to me, I won't open this can of worms, but I'll keep it in the back of my mind in case I get a clue.  It would be interesting if somebody else had an idea on it.

[markussaage 762]

1 hour ago, huzman said:

Here, I'm not following you. Do you use Reader and Execute within Win7 and 10? That would be a number. Merci for your feedback.

Yes, I do use iLive's Reader 0.93, Lot Editor, PIM-X and other tools with Windows 7 and 10 with no problems. I just set the windows permissions in the tools installation folder (in my case I called the folder "SC4 Tools") to Read/Execute, so that those tools even work with mit standard user account permission.

Kind regards!

[CorinaMarie 29,898]

2 hours ago, RandyE said:

There's a few directions to go to debug this, so as its a complete mystery to me, I won't open this can of worms, but I'll keep it in the back of my mind in case I get a clue.  It would be interesting if somebody else had an idea on it.

If you come up with anything, how about posting that in the thread which is dedicated to the issue? 8.1 - XP and Trees (That'll keep like ideas together for peeps later searching about a similar bug.)

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

On ‎2017‎-‎09‎-‎14 at 5:45 AM, huzman said:

Found this patch but I'm not sure about it. If you know and/or installed it, could  you share your opinions?

There were a couple of patches I found for x86 executables that were generic for any .exe file.   I suppose the flag is located in the same place in the exe files.   I was wondering which one you had found and if it was specifically for SC4?    The most prominent one I found is http://www.ntcore.com/4gb_patch.php.   Some people don't use NAM and may want to patch the .exe independently.   I haven't tested this one as I'm using the NAM patch. 

Thanks @CorinaMarie for the link back to a previous discussion on the 3-click tree mystery --looks like I already had a few ideas on that one so I can erase that idea from the back of my hard-drive   

[huzman 445]

10 hours ago, RandyE said:

Thanks @CorinaMarie for the link back to a previous discussion on the 3-click tree mystery

Yes, thanks @CorinaMarie, I believe that link is still pertinent since the glitch in my SC4 under Win 8.1 has not gone away.

@markussaage: Good points. Thanks.

Looks like the two topics are morphing into each other.

[Tarkus 6,934]

12 hours ago, RandyE said:

The most prominent one I found is http://www.ntcore.com/4gb_patch.php.   Some people don't use NAM and may want to patch the .exe independently.   I haven't tested this one as I'm using the NAM patch.

The NT Core patch is actually what the NAM uses.  z1 obtained permission from Daniel Pistelli (NT Core) to include his 4GB patch in our installer package, starting with the NAM 31.2 release of June 2013.  You'll actually find a copy of the patch in the My Documents\SimCity 4\Plugins\NAM Auxiliary Files\Tools folder after installing the NAM.

-Tarkus

[huzman 445]

3 hours ago, Tarkus said:

The NT Core patch is actually what the NAM uses

Great. Glad I didn't install the NTC one.

 

15 hours ago, RandyE said:

Some people don't use NAM and may want to patch the .exe independently.

That's true, but why would people won't use NAM is weird. Well, different strokes... and all that.

Anyway, thanks gents for your input.

3 hours ago, Tarkus said:

(This got stuck here and I couldn't delete it. Sorry. huzman)

[CorinaMarie 29,898]

8 hours ago, huzman said:

but why would people won't use NAM is weird.

Some of us do so much testing of other things (like terrain generation) that we'd rather not have the increased load time.

[huzman 445]

4 hours ago, CorinaMarie said:

we'd rather not have the increased load time.

That's one reason among others my lady, they are understandable as it happens to me too. But I think that a majority of players that won't use the NAM or various plugins folders are missing a big chunk.

[CorinaMarie 29,898]

1 minute ago, huzman said:

But I think that a majority of players that won't use the NAM or various plugins folders are missing a big chunk.

Oh, I agree. I've had it installed before and it's a wonderful mod. I'd imagine the player base using NAM is prolly 95% or thereabouts.