8.1 - XP and Trees

[huzman 445]

I was trying to build a graphic catalog of the seasonal trees, their seasonal changes if any, and the planting day (September 1st).

I decided to do it in WIN 8.1 and ended with a curious surprise. In spite of claims that one can cycle up to 5 clicks (and more in some cases), I couldn't go beyond 3 clicks max. in XP they work as claimed. So I had to start all over again...

Any ideas?

[CorinaMarie 29,896]

6 hours ago, huzman said:

Any ideas?

No ideas at all. My SC4 is on XP and I haven't installed my digital version yet, but that will go on Win 7 so that still wouldn't help with 8.1 problems. My only experience with trees was reading: Cori's Jolteon's Tree Shoppe

Offhand, @RandyE is the only one I know running Win 8.1 so maybe he'll be able to replicate what you are seeing in your game.

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

Seasonal trees is one thing I've avoided in playing SC4.  I like to keep the scenery more static as I play like creating a painting and then make graphics.   Seasonal trees vary the color relationships radically, from green to yellow and red.   Its the same as with the timed automata, its easier to be able to stage the props where you want them for still picture taking than have to wait for automata actors to walk onto the stage where you want them.    It would be nice if there was a seasonal switch, like with night and day, where you could manually control the season.     As well, I never pay attention to the date in the game, and always play/build in constant day light.

However, with all that said, I have noticed using Win 8.1 is a bit more quirky than Win 7, and on machines and OSs more advanced than when the game was designed, there are many potential quirks beyond what we could possibly resolve.   Many of the general solutions given by our tech support crew here on ST usually resolve issues, but more often crudely, and sometimes not permanently or precisely.   Still, we do the best we can.    SC4 seems to be mostly quite stable on my machine and most others, I've never had to re-install or restore the system, but these are options available if you can't resolve an issue.  Reinstalling and/or restoring does not destroy user files, so all your plugins are safe.   Another option is to remove all plugins and then begin rebuilding your plugins folder incrementally adding back your plugins and testing as you go along.   Changing the compatibility mode sometimes helps, so you could try to use Win XP mode and see if that changes anything.        

[CorinaMarie 29,896]

23 minutes ago, RandyE said:

It would be nice if there was a seasonal switch, like with night and day, where you could manually control the season.

It would take some investigation to use, but @Indiana Joe attached a Seasons Switcher exemplar to this post. (Scroll to the bottom of said post.)

[rsc204 21,866]

9 hours ago, huzman said:

In spite of claims that one can cycle up to 5 clicks (and more in some cases), I couldn't go beyond 3 clicks max. in XP they work as claimed. So I had to start all over again...

Which tells me there is something wrong with your install on Win 8. It's not like the game code changes or alters to work differently depending on the O/S used. So the O/S is not a factor here, I'm certain of it.

[huzman 445]

3 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

with your install on Win 8.

• That's a thought, I'm in default settings so I don't see what could go wrong.

• 3 hours ago, RandyE said:

  Another option is to remove all plugin

  That's an idea...

• Let's not forget: 8.1 vs XP is the thing to check.

• 18 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

  So the O/S is not a factor here, I'm certain of it.

  I agree with that. But for arguments sake, what could make the 8.1 glitch? It's no big thing since I'm still building that graphic catalog under XP.

[rsc204 21,866]

1 hour ago, huzman said:

But for arguments sake, what could make the 8.1 glitch

Is the install of SC4 patched on both, i.e. are the installations identical.

Are you using an identical plugin suite for both, in the same folder?

Best guess one of the two things above is not the same or, Win 8.1 is locking access to the files somehow preventing the data from being read. Although that last one is a real long shot, because it makes little sense that this would happen only after the third click. How many different items did you try before reaching the conclusion? If it was one or two from the same author/group, that wouldn't be a conclusive. Honestly it's one of those problems that might take some time to work out with trial and error.

But the properties that allow flora to cycle are set inside file containing the MMP itself. I could see a problem which prevented somehow the cycling from working altogether. But just to stop after three clicks, is very odd behaviour indeed.

[huzman 445]

10 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Is the install of SC4 patched on both

Yes, for a small difference: in the XP machine it's the 640 version and in the 8.1 one is the 641 version. About the plugin folders, they are identical. I tried planting all the seasonal trees, bushes, grass et al, everything Girafe, Fagus, Lowkee33 and maybe a couple more.

15 hours ago, RandyE said:

Another option is to remove all plugins and then begin rebuilding your plugins folder incrementally

You read my mind. But I don't understand what "switching to XP mode" means.

[CorinaMarie 29,896]

On 6/16/2017 at 1:55 AM, huzman said:

I don't understand what "switching to XP mode" means.

Assuming you have an icon on your desktop you use to start the game, you can right-click it to pop up a menu. Select Properties then the Compatibility tab. In Win 7 Pro (and for a different game) it looks like this:

Hopefully Win 8.1 is similar for getting there.

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

22 minutes ago, huzman said:

You read my mind. But I don't understand what "switching to XP mode" means.

Right Click on the shortcut (or the exe file) and open the 'Properties' menu at the bottom of the list.   You'll see the 'Compatibility' tab.  From there you can change which mode Windows uses to run the program.  As @rsc204 pointed out to me, generally SC4 will run OK without 'switching' to another mode from Win 8.1.    On my machine its true I run SC4 without using a compatibility mode.  

^ See @CorinaMarie picture above  

  Edited June 16, 2017 by RandyE  
See Cori's Picture above

[huzman 445]

57 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

Hopefully Win 8.1 is similar for getting there.

 

55 minutes ago, RandyE said:

its true I run SC4 without using a compatibility mode.

You guys and dolls are too quick for  me.

@CorinaMarie: I came  to that same conclusion while you were answering my post. Thing is that the compatibility tab has the XP-SP3 set on on and I can't turn it off.
I was thinking that maybe that what's wrong. I dunno.

@RandyE: That's what I was trying to do. Just to show you how slow I am, I thought that switching to XP mode from within SC4, half hour later the right answer dawned on me, like an apostle on Pentecost.
I also checked the two plugins folders and noticed a small difference, so I re-copied the XP folder into the 8.1 one and now I got all the trees and such in double entries. For the love Pete!

[SecretMbr_735754 2,158]

1 hour ago, huzman said:

I re-copied the XP folder into the 8.1 one and now I got all the trees and such in double entries.

I wonder if the problem with the seasonal trees has anything to do with the game settings, but I'm not exactly familiar with using timed props.  If I understand correctly you have both XP and Win 8.1, each with a copy of SC4?   If you get all the plugins organized, then maybe check that the 'graphic option' settings are the same?   Let us know how it goes.

[Grumalg 17]

I think there's a bit of confusion in the above 'XP Mode' discussion.  The picture CorinaMarie  posted is not 'XP Mode', but 'Compatibility Mode'.  Compatibility Mode tries to make the OS *look* like XP to an application (and often succeeds).

XP Mode means running a virtual machine on your PC that's actually running XP and running an application *in* that running version of XP.

XP mode exists because Microsoft dropped supporting 16 bit applications as of Windows 7  (which only supports 32/64 bit applications).  However many businesses were *still* depending on 16 bit apps.  To avoid losing Win 7 sales and to avoid the cost of still supporting XP, XP Mode was born.  It consists of two things:

1) Windows Virtual PC https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3702

2) Windows XP Mode https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx%3Fid=8002

You first install MS virtual PC and then install XP Mode *in* a virtual PC so you have an actual XP running on your system.  XP Mode does some magic to make the application's GUI running in Virtual PC/XP Mode appear on the normal Win 7 desktop appearing to the user as a normal win 7 app.  There's no compatibility involved here, the app is actually running in XP, just getting keyboard/mouse passed to it from Win 7 and taking it's output out to the Win 7 display.  I use it to play old 16 bit apps on my win 7 system, but 32 bit apps work just as well...

When you start an app in XP Mode, the virtual machine silently, invisibly starts and you interact with the app as if it was installed in Win 7, without working in a virtual machine window.

Microsoft says it's Virtual PC and XP Mode are only for Win 7, but a bit of searching will show you people are using it in Win 8 and Win 10.  They are putting up 'how to's all over the internet on the subject.

One limiting factor though,  MS Virtual PC only runs on Win 7 Pro or higher, home versions need not apply...

[CorinaMarie 29,896]

13 minutes ago, Grumalg said:

XP Mode means running a virtual machine on your PC that's actually running XP and running an application *in* that running version of XP.

Whoa! Cool. I grabbed all 4 files since I'm not sure which I can use. I suspect the x64 of the Virtual PC is for 64 bit OS, but I've no clue what the difference between the plain and N versions of the XP Mode one might be.

(I'm running 7 Pro, btw.)

[Grumalg 17]

The 'N' version is just XP Mode without Media Player...

 

[huzman 445]

That sounded like a good option, but as @Grumalg pointed out, this is for WIN 7 only.

But he did say:

1 hour ago, Grumalg said:

... a bit of searching will show you people are using it in Win 8 and Win 10.

So, I'm hopeful. Wish me luck.

[huzman 445]

5 hours ago, RandyE said:

Let us know how it goes.

Thanks @RandyE. A good idea about the Graphic Options.

But right now I'm trying to get rid of the double entries, but the 8.1 refuses me entry in deleting or renaming the culprit files.

[rsc204 21,866]

8 hours ago, RandyE said:

As @rsc204 pointed out to me, generally SC4 will run OK without 'switching' to another mode from Win 8.1.    On my machine its true I run SC4 without using a compatibility mode.  

There is no generally about it. As I said before either the compatibility mode is required to run an app or it isn't. Lots of people assume you need to run XP Compatibility for SC4, but the simple truth is it's totally unnecessary and doesn't make a bit of difference. SC4 is a 32-Bit app and runs fine all all Windows systems from Vista through to 10.

XP Mode is entirely different, as a VM you may find your hardware is detected differently that way, but unless you are having problems related to DirectX, it's probably not required for most either.

6 hours ago, huzman said:

I also checked the two plugins folders and noticed a small difference, so I re-copied the XP folder into the 8.1 one and now I got all the trees and such in double entries. For the love Pete!

This happens when you have duplicate MMPs installed. Unlike a lot of content, SC4 will read the entries twice, rather than override those with identical IDs. The solution is make sure you only have one copy of each MMP installed. The best way to ensure the plugins suites are identical is to remove (move) the original set of plugins on the Win8 machine. Then copy them over from the XP machine. Otherwise you are likely to have duplicates, which will cause problems.

As for MMPs function, an MMP reads the property "Flora Cluster type", which will have an ID, telling it which flora exemplar to load next. The last click as it were, will not have this property, hence the MMP knows it's reached the end of the sequence. So something like this:

• 00000001 (ID) - Exemplar 1 (first item - which links to the icon and menu entry you see). Will link by Flora Cluster type to...
• 00000002 Exemplar 2, linked by Flora Cluster type to
• 00000003 Exemplar 3,
  This chain continues for all the items in a MMP until the last exemplar, so we continue to Exemplar 8 which links to the last item...
• 00000009 Exemplar 9 - Does not have the property Flora Cluster type. So the sequence ends once this Flora prop is displayed.

Using this example to reference your problem, how is it that the game can still read the sequence to switch between the first few items, but then fails for items beyond three? We know the code is still switching between IDs, i.e. the expected behaviour. So if that's working why does it stop at a certain point? If the properties inside the MMPs are unmodified, then the links should still be there. If somehow the game couldn't read IDs properly, then your issue would not be limited to MMPs, it would frankly cause huge problems, since everything relies on IDs.

Honestly, without hearing of a single other case of this problem, I have to assume something is wrong with your game, be it the install of SC4 or the setup of your plugins suite. There is literally no evidence to suggest that MMPs don't work on Win8 / 8.1. I know it's not the worlds most loved/popular O/S, but MMPs are a staple of many players. I just can't imagine why no one else would have suffered, or reported this problem, if it was endemic to running Win8 / 8.1.

What this tells me is that messing around installing VMs or with Windows itself is very unlikely to resolve the issue. It's much more likely the issue lies with the installation of SC4 or within your plugins folder. That's not an absolute, but it's certainly where I would start in this case.

[huzman 445]

6 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

It's much more likely the issue lies with the installation of SC4

Ah so... So I'm thinking of uninstalling and re-installing SC4 all over again, maybe I can kill two stones with one bird: the 3 click thing and the doubles. I'm surprised that I'm the only one with this problem. Anyhow, thanks for your deep insights.

[rsc204 21,866]

2 minutes ago, huzman said:

maybe I can kill two stones with one bird: the 3 click thing and the doubles.

No, the duplicates are literally there because you have duplicate copies of the MMP files in your plugins folder, a re-install won't change that.

14 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

This happens when you have duplicate MMPs installed. Unlike a lot of content, SC4 will read the entries twice, rather than override those with identical IDs. The solution is make sure you only have one copy of each MMP installed. The best way to ensure the plugins suites are identical is to remove (move) the original set of plugins on the Win8 machine. Then copy them over from the XP machine. Otherwise you are likely to have duplicates, which will cause problems.

 

[huzman 445]

4 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

No, the duplicates are literally there because you have duplicate copies

That's the case.  But I'm running out time, so I'll back later.

7 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

a re-install won't change that.

But if uninstall the whole SC4, that would erase everything, right?

[rsc204 21,866]

1 minute ago, huzman said:

But if uninstall the whole SC4, that would erase everything, right?

Depends. There is an option to delete custom content when you use the uninstaller, but it's optional. Honestly, if you want to remove the plugins, just move the entire folder somewhere and you are done.

That's not to say I think you shouldn't re-install SC4 as well however.

[huzman 445]

10 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

That's not to say I think you shouldn't re-install SC4 as well however.

Well, a long time ago -very early this morning- I tried that, but as said earlier, 8.1 was refusing renaming or deleting anything in SC4.

I just launched SC4 in the 8.1 machine and was able to remove the offending double files. And it worked. So I tried planting some seasonal trees. The 3 click persists.
So some progress is made.

A grammatical observation: a double negation implies a positive: "I never done nothing" actually that means "I did everything". So your quote means I should do it?
Sorry for the impertinence, no insult was meant.

[CorinaMarie 29,896]

@huzman To be sure I'm commenting on the right part, you are referring to this statement:

41 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

That's not to say I think you shouldn't re-install SC4 as well however.

The first part "That's not to say..." means that the sentences proceeding it stand alone for the part they explain. So yes, in this case the whole statement means reinstalling could very well be a good idea. It also means the prior suggestion (move the plugins folder) might solve the problem and therefore re-installing may not be necessary. So, if moving the plugins does not help then re-install is the next step to try.

[huzman 445]

4 minutes ago, CorinaMarie said:

then re-install is the next step to try.

Did that just 5 minutes ago, uninstalling and re-installing the whole she-bang. No luck.
I'm still stuck with the 3 click limit. But if it doesn't alters the game, I'm ok with  it since in the XP machine everything works just fine.
Which raises a question: the lack of not going beyond the 3 click thing in the 8.1, would it handicap the game itself?

[huzman 445]

On 6/16/2017 at 10:47 AM, RandyE said:

graphic option' settings are the same?

Yep. Exactly the same except for the screen resolution, of course.

 

On 6/16/2017 at 3:11 PM, Grumalg said:

They are putting up 'how to's all over the internet on the subject.

Have you used any of them?

[Grumalg 17]

I'm still running Win 7, so I don't have 8 or 10 to test with.  I.E. no I haven't tested it.  If you do some searching like "XP Mode Win 8" or "XP Mode Win 10" you get a ton of hits with people telling how it's dine.

[huzman 445]

14 minutes ago, Grumalg said:

I.E. no I haven't tested it.

Oh. Yes, I found a few (lot) of them including some posts from MS, but I was doubtful about the reliability. Thank you anyway and... welcome here.