SimCoug's BAT Den

[SimCoug 5,973]

Well, I never thought this day would come... 

I've spent the last week or so learning as much as I can about 3ds Max, the BAT, texturing, etc... This stuff is hard work man!
Anyway, I was getting increasingly frustrated with trying to get 3ds Max and the Bat4Max to play nicely with my computer, so instead of blowing a gasket, I decided to take a step back and start with the basics.  I jumped into the basic BAT and started playing around.   I can tell it will be a while before I'm proficient with the modeling tools, but things are coming along... slowly.  

I decided to start with a little sign project that I've had in the back of my head for a while now.  I like the maxis sign props for dressing up storefronts, but some of them are a little too modern for my tastes.  So we get what we have here...


They don't look too bad in game...


We'll see where this goes...  

[Thin White Duke 4,072]

This can only be a good thing.  

[JP Schriefer 5,591]

That's really nice!

[Bombardiere 591]

Joining the dark side, eh?

This is a good way to start. Hey, I begun with pasting card kit texture's on a box. And knowing that you like historic stuff, I believe that you will have interesting offerings due time.

[mattb325 28,890]

Looking good - the renders bode well for using 3ds 2015 (hopefully the later ones work too) . Great to see another batter making his debut!

[SimCoug 5,973]

@Thin White Duke - Thanks 
@JP Schriefer - Exporting each sign model took about 3.4 seconds, according to gmax, so I wouldn't say they are very complex, but I appreciate the support 
@Bombardiere - Thank you!  I am envious of your quick progression from beginning BATer to masterful artist. I can only hope to follow in your footsteps. 
@mattb325 -  Thanks!  I probably wasn't very clear, but I started yelling at my screen trying to get 3ds 2015 and the BAT4MAX to work properly, so I just gave up before I broke something.  Those renders are just plain ol' Gmax and the BAT. I may try again in the near future, but I'm trying to see how Gmax works first... walk then run sort of thing.  

Here's a little test I did to check scale (alongside a maxis CS)... should look good for a 1 story CS...


BTW, does anybody know of any good basic Gmax video tutorials?  @Jasoncw had some great basic modeling tutorials using 3ds max, and some of the tools are similar, but alot of the toys in 3ds max are either missing in Gmax, or under a different tool.   

[Bombardiere 591]

11 hours ago, SimCoug said:

 - Thank you!  I am envious of your quick progression from beginning BATer to masterful artist. I can only hope to follow in your footsteps.

 

I think you will, because I think that the SC4 batting is more that just 3D skillery. I think that a good batter needs a SC4 Eye and certain passion to the game. Not to mention about the patience. I can do decent BAT because I want do it well, but the difference between me and @mattb325 is that while he can do a great Bat in an evening, I need two months.

 

I think that GMAX is good way to start. Basically all you learn can be transferred to 3DS MAX because the basic functions are so similar.  I don't know any video tutorials, but I would recommend Phillippbo's Bat essentials series here at Simtropolis.

 

 It teaches all you need for a basic building and from this you can build your skill sets.

 

[SimCoug 5,973]

@Bombardiere - Thanks!  Yeah, I've glanced over that tutorial, a few times lately.  I guess a lot of the BAT tricks come from practice and testing too.  

So here is a very rough makeup of a CS I am working on (mine is on the right, 3 maxis bldgs on the left).  I wanted to see how the textures and modeling looked alongside similar Maxis buildings.  Any critiques, suggestions or tips are welcome.  I was going to add some more decorative brickwork at the top of the front, as well as a sign.  The brick texture is actually the one from the tutorial, so I will be testing out some others... I mostly wanted to see how that one behaved once it showed up in game.  The roof texture is mine, but I think it needs to shift more to the grey side (too blue at the moment).   Thanks!

[crownsteler 31]

Ah looks nice. Are you going to create a whole row of buildings?

The roof texture is indeed a bit to blue, but otherwise looks nice. The windows are perhaps a bit too dark, and some elements above the door would be good too. Perhaps also extrude the left and right corner walls a bit forward to give some more depth to the building? edit: some sort of gutter running down the front could also work (see also picture below for gutters running down the building).

Also (since I am such an experienced modeler ;)), I always include a caping stone on the wall to deal with the texture wraping around the top of your walls. Like so:

(I am refering to the grey [concrete] edges on the top of the walls). They also make architecturally sense as they reduce erosion on the bricks.

[mattb325 28,890]

You are a very quick learner!!!! 

Welcome to texturing, the hardest part to get right....so whenever I give advice, others are usually very quick to give an opposing view (as though this is somehow my first rodeo), but here goes anyway.....

Ocean Quigley (the game's creative lead) is based in N California and his lighting-rigs and painting have a very unique light borne of his area (these are his public admissions, not my ramblings). If you've an artistic lean, and you're American, I would say to try and imagine the light in a Sonoma vineyard at 4pm on an October afternoon: everything is bathed in a warm peachy hue typical of Mediterranean regions in mid autumn and that is the game's palette.

Otherwise, use the eyedropper tool in photoshop 

Now you can actually have a blue roof. But it needs to operate within the values of sc4. Everyone knows these are very de-saturated. But they occupy the warm side of colours. The 3 Maxis buildings do not have grey roofs per se, rather they would be called beige (or greige). The biggest stand out is the saturation value - instead of a 6-11, yours has 31. Definitely lower this first and maybe decrease the blue a little, but as I said, the game can cope with a bluer roofing quite easily and maxis shipped a few buildings with blue tiles. Yours just stands out because it saturated and too cool.

You can then use the same techniques for bricks, plaster, etc. If you are using gmax, then definitely use the maxis window texture they shipped with the bat at about a 40% opacity as it will easily fit in with the game. I used to stretch it to at least 40mx40m

 

[madhatter106 3,922]

Yes, getting those textures right will be a good chunk of the work.  And when you change one texture, you need to see how it visually affects your perception of the others.  There will be a lot of back-and-forth, between the modeling program and your image editing software where you are making (and remaking, and refining, and re-refining) your textures. 

If you're working in Photoshop, you'll be playing around a lot of the hue, saturation, contrast and brightness features.  Sometimes it may take just a little tweak of a percentage up or down to get the effect you want.

As for the blue, yeah, it's pretty Smurf-tastic.  You'll need to leech a bunch of the color out of it.  It can still remain a cool gray, but this one is super blue, as you yourself have already noted.

The roof textures and the base building textures are usually the thing that I do in my buildings at the beginning of the texturing stage.  Often I will do the main body texture first, then drop a previously used roof texture in to see what direction I need to go in, with regard to warmth, value, etc.  When I do texturing, I often will do a "reversal" of the roof when compared to the base building texture; that is to say, if the building bricks are very warm, I will aim for a cooler roof texture, whereas if the building is a cooler gray or painted cool color, I will go for a warmer gray roof texture.  I find that if the entire BAT is in warms or cools exclusively, it deadens the end result slightly.  You need a bit of contrast, now matter how subtle it is, to break that and prevent the entire BAT from looking as if it's been put through a warm or cool filter.

[SimCoug 5,973]

@crownsteler - Thanks for the feedback
@mattb325 - Thank you!  I don't mind most of the maxis buildings, and I would like my buildings to fit in along side them, so I appreciate the texture lesson.  I'm still getting the hang of making my own textures.  Do you create your own brick textures from scratch, or do you alter from existing images?  And how would you go about creating a worn off advertisement on a brick wall like your historic shop models?  
@madhatter106 - Thanks for the insight!  I hope once I assemble a collection of textures it won't feel so daunting.  

Here's the latest... I'm still tinkering around with the textures and modeling.  I already know where I made mistakes and I think The next one will go a bit smoother.  

I forgot to texture the foundation, so disregard that nice turquoise glow on the base of it

[CT14 2,486]

It's looking good! The rear left edge of the roof looks like it might have a small alignment issue, but I'm sure you already spotted that.

 

You can create images with transparency in photo editing software, export as TGA format (png or gif might work?) and get some pretty good effects like the ghost signs you're talking about.

The general method, once you have the TGA loaded into a material in the BAT, is to create a very thin mesh, say .001 deep (plane probably works but haven't tried). Apply the transparent texture to it, then position that mesh on the wall. The wall will show through around the letters. I used that technique for the Saber LA River lot.

[madhatter106 3,922]

Something about the modeling bugs me a little bit; this BAT is very very narrow.  It looks to be approximately 8 meters wide, as it fits on about half of a single grid width lot.  When you put it next to the Rivello and all those others in that screenshot, it looks glaringly narrow and squished.  I would suggest either widening it a bit, or not making it nearly as long as those others.  I am hard pressed to come up with a rational use for that building be on so narrow a footprint as modeled currently.  When I've BATted little buildings and made something this small, it's usually been something that's kiosk-sized, usually square or nearly square or squarish.

[mattb325 28,890]

Quote

5 hours ago, SimCoug said:

Do you create your own brick textures from scratch, or do you alter from existing images?  And how would you go about creating a worn off advertisement on a brick wall like your historic shop models?

I used to make them; they are quite straight forward: I use the gimp (I call it photoshop out of habit).

Having used both programs, the methods are pretty interchangeable. Certainly the underlying principles are the same in terms of layers. I can give a tutorial on the subject, but others have explained it better: here for instance. The differences I used when making bricks were: 1) adding an alpha channel to the clouds so that I could make them fade away more; 2) not using such strong contrasts in white/black to define the edges, and 3) often starting with a noisy plaster-texture background which again, I would allow to show through to get the subsequent colors right. Or I would photograph brick walls myself.

It's quick, but that was back before the proliferation of high quality, free textures. Now I just grab one off the 'net. CG Textures is my go to place.

So I'll walk you through what I do when I get a new texture.This is down and dirty, and I haven't tested it in game, but these methods will work with limited (if any) subsequent tweaking.

I'm taking the texture from here, which is basically the first brick texture I saw.

It's tileable (yay) and it's 1024x1024, and judging by the size of the bricks by my eye, in game it should have a use for buildings up to two - maybe three - stories.

Next I open the images folder in the SC4Tool. This contains a little image of every building maxis made. On my PC it lives here: C:\Program Files (x86)\SC4Tool\Images. As I am going to do a brick texture, I visually pick a few similarly brick-textured buildings from the Maxis library. As it happens, there are two buildings right next to each other which to me fit the bill.

So now I have my texture, and my in-game reference point, because after all, we are making an SC4 game asset, not a client presentation or a model for sale on turbosquid, etc.

Gmax is quite old, and doesn't faithfully represent certain colours in game - it shifts them quite substantially, so the first thing you will need to do is adjust your curves to take this into consideration. Gascooker wrote a tutorial on it here, and it needs no further elaboration. 3ds has no such issues.

As I said, the texture to me looks good for about 2 floors - maybe 3. So, here goes....

1) Double the height of the texture so that the image is 1024 x 2048 and copy and paste to fill the image. I do this because I will want to use bricks for buildings up to 6 floors (possibly....it's always good to have an option). Save this larger, but as yet unedited image as you'll want to revisit it many times to make different variations later. Next I open the two Maxis references. - all as per screen shot #1.

2) Get the eye dropper tool and make a note (on notepad) of the values of the two maxis buildings. Now as Maxis uses fake ray-tracing (i.e gradients) it is important select a few spots in the center of the building - bricks have variations, hence the few spots along the center: if it were plain plaster you'd select only one spot.

I'm really after the HSV values, and in particular the saturation value. Use the eyedropper tool to get the values of your texture - all as per screenshot #2. From my quick assessment, the building on the left occupies roughly these parameters: HSV between 20-23 | 41-44 | 65-58, RGB 148-167 | 108-122 | 83-99; the building on the right occupies these parameters: HSV 28-32 | 40-48 | 71-75, RGB 181-192 | 140-152 | 94-116 and my brick texture occupies these parameters: HSV 17-19 | 47-52 | 64-67, RGB 162-170 | 107-109 | 81-86.

3) Thankfully the brick texture I've picked occupies roughly the same sort of Saturation levels as the mid point of the maxis buildings, so I'll adjust the saturation so that it sits comfortably within the 40-45 range - or about 10% less. If you wanted to do a blue/black bricked building (like the old 1930's ones) - which there isn't a game equivalent for, you would need to tweak the RGB values as well to make it look like the warm sonoma county autumnal afternoon.

4) The texture is quite flat and lifeless at the moment and so, whether you are using gmax or old school texture techniques in 3ds, it needs to have some grunge. I use the dodge and burn. Dodge at the top of the texture to simulate and burn to simulate the grime at the base. I set the brush to a 20% for both. I then, quite literally, scribble, scratch and flail my hand around on the texture taking care only to roughly align the scribbles on the left and right sides so that they don't visibly tile on the model in game. I just used a round brush for this exercise as that is default; obviously you can experiment with different brush types and opacities to get something you want.

Then, I use the gradient tool (FG to transparent) and a 10% opacity to apply the gradient. Then just re-check the saturation levels one last time and adjust if needed (dodge/burn and gradients tend to up the saturation slightly).

We then get to something like screen shot 3. Which I would then do a 'save as', before going any further as this now becomes the texture image I will use on my walls for ingame. 

5) Now if I wanted an advert, I simply pick an old image, paste it over the bricks, add an opacity layer and then use the eraser tool (on a 20% opacity) to fade it back to brick. Just like screen shot 4 - which Id probably spend more time on if I were going to use, as my eraser efforts made it look a bit like someone's  bum-print .

But anyway, these various saves then become your base textures for your bat and from here you can add all sorts of other things; grunge from the parapet (again CG Textures has all sorts of stain decals), window sills etc. That's a bit more advanced in that you need to take a gmax screenshot and work from there, but it is still perfectly straight forward. This method also applies to your flat and pitched roofs.

All of this takes me less than 5 minutes to source some textures from websites until they are game ready.

The texture here looks pretty ordinary, I'll admit, but it will work - the reason being is that along any run of wall, there will be windows, sills, doors, maybe columns, and other details that will break the texture up. If it is a purely flat large expanse of wall, or a modern building, then obviously take more time with the 'scribbles'.

But as I always maintain, we are making game assets for SC4; the scale is ridiculously small and really, details just disappear in this old game.

The only other thing I'll add is to do a preview render and then do the eye dropper test again (or paste it into a vanilla screenshot of the game) to make sure that you are still happy with the textures prior to rendering.

 

[SimCoug 5,973]

@CT14 - Thanks!  I figured it had something to do with transparent textures... I wonder if it could be made to work as a separate prop family that could be used on any wall... 

@madhatter106 - Yeah, you don't see narrow buildings like this in game very much, which is one reason I wanted to create something like this.  My goal is to prop family the heck out of these (different models, each with various texture schemes) and lot them like so...


I was inspired by old turn of the century small towns that you find all across the midwest.  I literally can zoom in on any small town in WI, IL, MI, IN, OH, etc and find examples like this...


I also want to also make 2 and 3 story buildings to form an entire set... one that can be mixed and matched in lots.  That's my vision at least.  Baby steps... right?    (I'm not going to even mention the diagonal and FAR angles...  )

@mattb325 - Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You have just saved me hours and hours fiddling around in photoshop.  I'm actually excited to start making some textures... weird right?  So any tips on how to organize your texture folders?  I can imagine things get pretty messy real fast, just based on how many textures I've worked on for just this one building.  

An update with new and improved textures will be forthcoming 

[metasmurf 705]

If you use Photoshop CC or newer here's some tips. I'm not an expert on what textures work best for buildings in SC4 though, nor do I have any experience working with game textures. Just showing some techniques.

Here I took a texture from textures.com. Instead of just using a transparency layer, I duplicated the layer, made a quick mask with a gradient and changed the blending mode to multiply.

 

Then I merged the two layers, converted them to a smart object, and then applied the Camera Raw Filter. This way the layer is non destructive which means you can make changes to the filter even after applying it which I guess is handy for BAT textures.

Maybe desaturate the reds a little...

 

 

If I were to use this texture in SC4 I would probably apply a blur filter gently to reduce some of the detail.

 

 

 

[SimCoug 5,973]

@metasmurf - Thanks for the tips - I just tried that raw camera filter and I think that will be easy to tinker around and get some nice warm or cool brick variations.

In other news - I'm experimenting with foundations...  (I think this is going to require some custom LOD work... blah)
coming along slowly...

[SimCoug 5,973]

Sorry for the double post, but hopefully one of you expert modelers can offer some quick advice.  Thanks to the great BAT tutorial, I have no problem working out shop fronts like the one on the left...


But what is the simplest way to go about modeling a recessed doorway (with angled glass) like the one on the right.  I feel like it should be a pretty easy process, but I must not be using the right tools or methods.  Any advice would be appreciated.  Thanks! 

[mattb325 28,890]

For the foundation questions, are you modelling them as a foundation when exporting? The Bat has this option in the export rollout (it's a little radio button on the right hand side). I've never had to use custom lods if I have exported this way.

For the shop-front, keeping in the spirit of phillipbos tutorial using splines, I would create five  rectangle splines (start with one rectangle -> convert it to a spline, then copy that spline (not copy the rectangle) so that it is all one object) for the shopfront like the attached image. 

Then you create 2 new rectangles, extrude and rotate them to get back to the door. Make a note of the angle they were rotated, and then repeat the process to model your window frames and glass.

Now to everyone else reading this, of course there are other ways of doing it (I can think of at least 2 to not only get there but to expand upon it). But as Simcoug mentioned the tutorial, and as I said, I am keeping my answer within the same spirit.

 

[SimCoug 5,973]

Thank you @mattb325!  I did pretty much as you advised and it seemed to work out.  I decided to start on a fresh model and see where it got me.  Still working on textures, but I'm getting more confident with the modeling aspect.  I'm still surprised how large you need to model in order to see any details.  

As you can see, I went a little heavy on the gradient and dodge/burn... roof texture needs some work too...

[DavidDHetzel 1,816]

@SimCoug Thats a W2W building right? I don't think the dodge/burn is going to be as big of a deal (assuming thats what you are refering too)

Also if You want to take a look, I'm gonna post some requests in the BAT of some W2W small town stuff.

 

 

[SimCoug 5,973]

@DavidDHetzel - Thanks!  This building can be W2W, or stand on it's own, so I'd like to get the gradient and siding looking good.  Here's the next texture attempt... I think it aligns pretty well with the maxis palette... at least the eye dropper told me it was close to these maxis examples.


EDIT:
For anybody interested - The Intelligencer building in Seattle (1874) is my inspiration for this...

[SimCoug 5,973]

I've been experimenting with some texture variations...

[raynev1 1,886]

I like the facades . The roofing , IDK . Keep at it , you are doing way better than I could .

[CT14 2,486]

Maybe just my screen, but the roof tiles for the first four models look like they are on a 30 degree diagonal instead of horizontal rows?

If they are, and the texture is normal, you can straighten them out, using the Rotate tool on the appropriate axis of the Gizmo in the UVW Mapping modifier on the roof object. It might be necessary to click the "+" next to the UVW Mapping entry in the right side panel's Modify tab, to show the Gizmo.

Make sure the Gizmo is deselected when done modifying it (i.e. make sure the UVW Mapping modifier is selected again), or weird things happen.

edit: Using the Rotate tool in the Top, Front or Right view gives you control over which axis the Gizmo is rotating on. I kept trying to use Perspective view for this at first.

edit 2: I was wrong, they are octagonal fancy-butt shingles

[DavidDHetzel 1,816]

Roof really fits in with the stuff Cycledogg has been putting out lately.

[airman15 4,113]

Each and every one of those variants would be a perfect fit for a gold rush hamlet! Several buildings including a Chinese restaurant are built like what you have depicted over in my new neighboring town of Georgetown!

[mattb325 28,890]

Looking good!  I would increase the size of the roof tiles (very slightly) which will stop them looking as noisy

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Wow, impressive progress while I was away!

Pretty much everything else has been taken care of splendidly, so let me add just two small remarks:

• I think you did a great job at matching your buildings to the colour palette used by Maxis!
• You could decrease the depth (thickness) of those parapet walls on the boxy building (the first one you showed). An excessively thick parapet can make an otherwise great BAT look clunky, and it can blur the difference between the somewhat more decorated street-facing side(s) and the rather utilitarian side and back walls - the Maxis commercials, as much as we hate them for their repetitiveness, are actually not bad in those details. You'll also notice that the Maxis buildings don't just have the wall textures extend all the way up to the top of the parapet; there's usually some kind of visual interruption. This is another little aspect that you could copy. Your building looks more like a rectangular set of walls with the roof lowered a few feet down into the centre, whereas the Maxis buildings look like a box capped with a flat roof, and then fitted with a low wall enclosure built on top, if that even makes any sense to you.

All in all, I've had a great time scrutinising all the beautiful stuff you've created so far and witnessing the quick progress - I'll be following this thread for sure, and I'm looking forward to seeing more already.