Jump to content
alborzka

Transport Lines Manager -- Reborn!

127 posts in this topic Last Reply

Recommended Posts

  • Original Poster
  • That is my concern as well -- I'd like an "ultimate" transit mod that has the features of both, so we don't have to worry about conflicting behaviours or having to choose one over the other, etc.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    39 minutes ago, Klyte45 said:

    Maybe do a new mod with the two, reviewing all the funcionalities. I think it would be the perfect case:
    The Improved Transport Manager. :D

    Great idea!

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    @BloodyPenguin I saw the IPTv2 you posted have no source code. Aparently was reverse-enginered from the last version. 

    So I think was easier use the TLM as a base. The code isn't perfect but at least we already have a project in fact. So, we can put the IPT inside the TLM and so work together on github to release the new ITM.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    I was thinking about what can be used in TLM from IPT, and the main feature is the unbunching. Maybe the budget status for each vehicle was useful too but the TLM already have a skeleton with that, and it can be developed later. 

    @BloodyPenguin, can you show us how is done the unbunching in IPT to put it in the first version of merged mod? Or better if possible, can you integrate it in the project at GitHub?

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • @Klyte45 unbunching is actually in the main game now, it came with the free patch :D

    Personally one of the things I'd be interested in from IPT is the stop information -- each stop shows how long until passengers are "bored" and leave the stop. This is important for knowing whether your fleet is sufficient or not, and if you should add more vehicles (or higher capacity, higher frequency, etc), as sims will not wait at a stop indefinitely and lost passengers is a bad thing.

    One other feature I'd like to add to TLM (which IPT doesn't have) is a history of the line overall (e.g. ridership, net profit made/lost). I mentioned this in one of my comments on the TLM mod page, but I'll paste it here for others to see: "Currently, we can click on a vehicle and see how much money it lost "that week", which is just how much money it made/lost from its most recent stop. That info is useless because its per vehicle, per stop, so you have no way of knowing how an entire line overall is doing, when its busiest hours are, what frequency to use, whether you can optimise the line with different vehicles/capacities (bigger/smaller buses, for example), raise or lower fees, etc. I already do this myself by checking up on the lines occasionally, but there should be a more precise way than simply eyeballing it."

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    I didn't know it was implemented in the free patch. Well, good to know!

    If you look in the commit history of TLM, you will see somewhere between the version 4.0 and 4.3 I did some stuff to show the line profit. I cancelled the feature due lack of knowledge at that time, but now I think with the IPT source it can be easier to do. (Because there have a vehicle statistics about it)

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    @Klyte45 I will upload source code of Improved Public Transport 2

    But hey guys, why make a second transport mod when you can contribute to IPT. Or at least they should be compatible.

    IMO it's possible to separate TLM's code into several modules, so that people can use at least some of its features alongside with IPT. If I can make a feature a separate mod, I try to make it a separate mod if it makes sense. This way people won't have to make tough choices of choosing between two good mods. For instance, TBH I like the vanilla design of transport panel and TLM's replacement isn't what I'm interested in. On the other hand, I would enjoy naming and coloring strategies. And that's something that should work alongside with IPT.

    My point is, that a complete merge is a bad approach, either IPT->TLM or TLM->IPT

    As you probably remember I made a TLM-EPTUI integrator once to get the best of two worlds :) I want to see something like this now

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    I suggested the merge because what I most heared from the TLM users was: less mods subscribed is better than 20 mods, one for each thing. The auto color feature come from one complaining like this, as example.

    Maybe shall we hear what the mod users want: 

    • A lot of mods, but every one doing a thing;
    • A single mod with all what TLM and IPT can offer together; or
    • No merge, IPT stays as is and TLM keep its developing - and a third one integrating both.

    We need also to think about the maintence of these mods. I think unifying them we will serve a largest part of the players with more quality, once all transport modders are work in only one thing. And hardly the mods gonna die once the team working in these mod is bigger.
     

    Finally, I know it will need a greater commitment of all involved to work. But I think the result would be better.

    This is my idea, independently of the way we decide to go or the mod to use as base, I can manage the work of all members if necessary.

     

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • Both IPT and TLM change the transit AI, so I think a core mod that handles that is essential -- that way we don't have conflicts over the most basic features. Once that's in, maybe then we can have "add-ons" which require the core mod as a base? Like a "modular mod" lol? Or maybe even just one core mod that takes care of the transit AI, and then one "add-on" mod that has a checklist of what extra features users want to enable in-game (e.g. transport panel UI, colouring themes, etc). But the add-ons I think would have to be pretty superficial features that don't touch the AI -- the budget per time feature in TLM, for example, would have to be in the core mod I think.

    I think we should start by listing all the features of TLM and IPT, and see which ones we want/need to keep in the "core" mod and which ones can be add-ons. If that's the way we want to go, that is.

    I also agree with @Klyte45 that for maintenance, a single base mod (at least for the AI) would be best. Otherwise, we will probably run into errors down the line that may make both mods unreliable. Plus, as he said, having a team run a mod (as opposed to one person) would further ensure the mod stays updated. So my suggestion is one core AI mod, and one "add-ons" / extra features (mostly UI, color, prefix, etc) mod, with a team on at least the AI mod.

    @BloodyPenguin, were there any AI features of TLM that you don't want to integrate into IPT?

    *multiple edits lol

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    23 minutes ago, alborzka said:

    ...a single base mod (at least for the AI) would be best....

    I think almost every function in the TLM deals with the game AI... :lol:
    In IPT I imagine isn't different.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    @alborzka Once there was a project of making a core mod for Network Extensions, TM:PE and Traffic++ and it didn't end up well *:no:

    Speaking of AI, yes IPT changes AI too for gathering stats, and it may gather more stats if needed. Then another mod may either gather stats on its own or access IPT via API for compatibilty. That's a solution we used on many of my mods with other modders.

    And yeah, a list of features is a must have. Since I didn't use TLM much myself, I need that list. And I can provide a list of IPT features after that for comparison.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • Here's a list of as many TLM features as I could think of (unless @Klyte45 knows of others that I've missed?); in no particular order (numbered for easier reference I guess; we can subsequently number other features from TLM, IPT, and new features as 13, 14, etc.):

    1. Vehicle asset choice for each line
    2. Quick line display UI (shows all vehicles w/ # of passengers and capacity, their location, # of citizens and tourists waiting per stop, and other transit stops/lines nearby each stop)
    3. Set number of vehicles per line
    4. Budget per time (every 3 hours) for each line
    5. Ticket price adjuster
    6. Automatic line name and colour
    7. Automatic stop names
    8. Configurable automatic names (edit how names are created, e.g. add custom prefixes and suffixes)
    9. Vehicle depot configuration (set which depots serve which lines)
    10. Nearby transit stops/lines listed for each building
    11. Prefixes (allows for configuring budget, vehicle model, and fares for many lines at once)
    12. Transport line UI

    * last edited 19/05/2017 20:16 EST

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • 1 hour ago, BloodyPenguin said:

    @alborzka Once there was a project of making a core mod for Network Extensions, TM:PE and Traffic++ and it didn't end up well *:no:

    :D but I think this would be a bit different -- NEXT and TMPE, while both altering vehicle AI, serve different overall functions whereas TLM and IPT aim to serve the same function. I just think it might be worth a shot to have a core mod and one "add-ons" mod, but then again my modding experience is limited so I'm good either way :)

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    Well, I think is it. The only function not listed I remember is the city map generator, but it's not ready.

    @BloodyPenguin I agree the modularization help on testing and maintence. But separate in different mods isn't so good for players. 
    A solution for this could be the creation of more than one dll file (ie: more than one project for the whole TLM) and then keep them inside a single mod. If one day another mod need some funcionality of the TLM, it can use only the necessary dll's from TLM, and then we create a core separated mod.
    The TLM already do it with the UI Helper, which I created to help the deal with the mod config menu. (and I shared with someone I don't remember when)

    But, merging TLM and IPT, I can't see by now another mod in same subject (public transport). 

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • @Klyte45 quick question: In the code I noticed you have both ferry and ship, is that meant to be that way or should I merge them?

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    No. Ships are ships and ferries are ferries. Each one have its own tab on line listing menu.
    You can select different vehicles for each type, so isn't prudent put them on same group. Same for Blimps and Airplanes.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • Ah okay, gotcha.

    I also noticed that the code almost equates ships and ferries, and blimps and airplanes, in some parts, e.g.: both blimp and airplane share TransportInfo.TransportType.Airplane. Aren't blimps and planes different *types* of vehicles altogether?

    Aaaand I accidentally committed some changes (all minor!) to the master instead of making a separate branch, my bad!

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    Posted (edited)

    Yes, they are. But the game see both in the Airplane layer of the game. Ships and Ferries have this share in layer too. It's like if the Metros and Trains used the same rail to move around, this case was separated but the airplanes/blimps and ferry/ships not.

    Is better you never use the master branch in your working directory, in local machine. Only pull requests go to master then. But okay, nobody will dies because an accidental commit. *:P

    UPDATE: Isn't a problem to commit in your master if we agree to make my master as the central one. So only I, when I come back to dev, will need to create a separated branch. The others members are optional once at end of development should be merged at main master.

    UPDATE 2: I answered your questions in which you have on the code at GitHub.


      Edited by Klyte45  

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    Once I switched from IPT to TLM, I missed vehicle spawn time interval function. Manually setting spawn time intervals is making less work for unbuncher, and it normalizes much more quickly. So would be nice to have such feature in your planned core mod or ITM as you say.

    Also another thing I want to ask, how number vehicles for different times of day work? Does it function the same as vanilla's daytime and nightime types - for example, once it changes from daytime to nightime, all buses just get unassigned and riding back to depots with all the passengers they were carrying. So does the same happen to TLM's feature of different number o vehicles for different times of day? Let's say once clock turns from 09:59 to 10:00 several buses gets unassigned and go directly to depot with its passengers or not?

    If yes, I unfortunately won't use this feature, CO made nice start with day and night transport, but as always not fully finished. IMO the vehicle should end its route to 100% and then go back to depot instead of immediately when time changes. Also if a vehicle is set to be unassigned after 100% of route, it shouldn't take passengers in the last stop.

     

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    As the question came up, I am mostly an IPT user. The TLM function I missed the most was the automatic coloring. My color vision is not the best, and some of those presets worked nicely.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • 4 hours ago, pauliaxz said:

    Once I switched from IPT to TLM, I missed vehicle spawn time interval function. Manually setting spawn time intervals is making less work for unbuncher, and it normalizes much more quickly.

    Sorry, I'm a bit confused by what this means? What is spawn time interval function?

    4 hours ago, pauliaxz said:

    Also another thing I want to ask, how number vehicles for different times of day work? Does it function the same as vanilla's daytime and nightime types - for example, once it changes from daytime to nightime, all buses just get unassigned and riding back to depots with all the passengers they were carrying. So does the same happen to TLM's feature of different number o vehicles for different times of day? Let's say once clock turns from 09:59 to 10:00 several buses gets unassigned and go directly to depot with its passengers or not?

    If yes, I unfortunately won't use this feature, CO made nice start with day and night transport, but as always not fully finished. IMO the vehicle should end its route to 100% and then go back to depot instead of immediately when time changes. Also if a vehicle is set to be unassigned after 100% of route, it shouldn't take passengers in the last stop.

    Honestly this was one of my biggest pet peeves in both IPT, TLM, and vanilla transit -- whenever a bus is sent back to the depot, it takes its passengers with it and it returns to the depot in the middle of its route!! I really hope we can change that in our new mod because I find both of those facts ridiculous. Buses should only return to the depot once they fully finish a route, and return to the depot without bringing passengers with it. Although I wonder what happens to those passengers if they go to the depot, do they teleport to work? If that's the case then it may not be a huge deal, but still something to look into.

    In TLM, you have eight 3-hour intervals and for each interval you can set that line's budget anywhere from 0x to 5x the default budget with a sensitivity of 0.05, i.e. you can have 0.85x and 2.45x etc. That way you can fine-tune how many buses you have over time, as opposed to simply going from 20 buses to zero buses and they all return to depot, as they do with vanilla day/night function. But as you said, once a bus is no longer needed it does return to depot immediately and that can happen to a bunch of buses at the same time. The 3-hour intervals can help smooth that out, e.g. go from 1.5 to 0.75 to 0 instead of 1.5 to 0, but still it is a bit irritating seeing a whole bunch of buses returning at once. If we can't prevent that behaviour, a work-around solution may be to add budget adjusters for each hour as opposed to every 3 hours to at least help smooth it out a bit. But yes, definitely something we will look into :)

    Finally, one other thing to look into is making sure passengers don't wait around when a line is over. In TLM, they already did this -- when a budget is set to zero, no new passengers wait at the stops. However, let's say its 7:50 and the line ends at 8, and a bus doesn't reach that stop in time so it returns to the depot. Those passengers that arrived before 8 will still wait for a bus indefinitely (well, until they get "bored" and leave), because their logic is that it'll eventually come even though the line ends at 8! And this happens in TLM, IPT, and vanilla. So this is something we will try and fix as well.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
    30 minutes ago, alborzka said:

    a work-around solution may be to add budget adjusters for each hour as opposed to every 3 hours

    There should be a solid balance between micro management and gameplay. You will never be able to match reality 100%.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • Looking at some recent comments on the IPT2 page:

    Quote

    I would say that IPT and TLM are in different focus, for me a simple UI like IPT(2) is already good enough, sometimes TLM feels too complicated for new joiners
    If somehow all the great modders join together to have a "IPT+TLM" mod, it would be lovely to have a lite version with simple layout as IPT(2), and also a full version likt TLM for micro managament...

    Quote

    Not sure if anyone have sugested it, but TLM, that has been discontinued (actually, totally removed), had some great things that I miss.
    1. Indexing and setting vehicles etc based on the index.
    2. The line would be shown on it's own with options of seeing nearby transport lines or number of passengers at each stop. It was way easier than the ingame view.

     

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    I agree with the fact of TLM is complicated. There are so much information at once and the newbies certainly get confused with it. But I don't know how to simplify the TLM. Maybe tutorials can help on it. (What I never had time to do)

    I think will be very difficult to make the TLM functions work with the minimalist interface of IPT. 

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites
  • Original Poster
  • TLM has a steep learning curve and tutorials can help, but that doesn't mean the TLM features should be discarded because of this -- there was a pretty strong fanbase for it so the need is obviously there.

    Like I said, once we figure out what the "core" features are, we can see how we can present them and then work on additional ones -- for example, prefixes may be "add-on" since it doesn't really change the way the overall AI works, but rather it changes how a line works. So that's why once @BloodyPenguin lists all of the IPT features, we can work this out and see what needs to go into a core mod and what would be "add-ons" for a separate mod.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    I disagree that TLM is complicated I think TLM is one of the best mods ever made based on public transport allowing as I commented on the topic of the steam able to fit each bus model to a group or adjust the buses according to its capacity is very usable . One problem that the IPT has that the TLM did not have is that you have to adjust the garage rightly so as not to conflict with the terminals because if it conflicts, the buses do not leave the garage. Another feature that is well usable in the TLM is the model that was adopted to adjust the bus as much as you need. We know that in real life we have a rush hour that has to have a certain amount of buses and other times a certain amount is enough. At IPT what I find most useful is the dashboard that shows the number of people that enter and leave the points how much profit in the lines. Anyway, I sincerely prefer the TLM for providing greater realism when it comes to public transport.

    Share this post


    Link to post
    Share on other sites

    Create an account or sign in to comment

    You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create an Account  

    Sign up to join our friendly community. It's easy!  

    Register a New Account

    Sign In  

    Already have an account? Sign in here.

    Sign In Now


    • Recently Browsing   0 members

      No registered users viewing this page.

    ×

    Help Keep Simtropolis Online, Open & Free!

    stexcollection-header.png

    Would you be able to help us catch up after a bit of a shortfall?

    We had a small shortfall last month. Your donation today would help us catch up for this month.

    Make a Donation, Get a Gift!

    We need to continue to raise enough money each month to pay for expenses which includes hardware, bandwidth, software licenses, support licenses and other necessary 3rd party costs.

    By way of a "Thank You" gift, we'd like to send you our STEX Collector's DVD. It's some of the best buildings, lots, maps and mods collected for you over the years. Check out the STEX Collections for more info.

    Each donation helps keep Simtropolis online, open and free!

    Thank you for reading and enjoy the site!

    More About STEX Collections