MissVanleider's lotting experiments and silly questions

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Hi everyone, thanks for reading.

So i have messed around with the lot editor and some of the other tools the community have made (disclaimer; PIM intimidates me with its menus) and i have made a few posts for specific problems but i have made this thread to hopefully tidy this up going forward where i can ask all my questions in one place, hopefully show what i'm doing and if i'm very lucky, help some folks out who lurking the thread who have never tried lotting to give it a try too.

 

Anyway, first question is a simple one i hope. I am trying to edit ChrisAdams 'ALN gravel path lots'. These display for me with no base texture (think perhaps a terrain issue or a missing texture naturally).

Anyway, rather than hunting the dependency down i decided to put my own favourite grass texture on the lots, (i think it is the ID that MGB's TGN uses to overide. In my LE it is 0x251c2000). This will obviously make the lot work again and also hopefully keep everything looking nice and matching.

My problem is that all the different paths i downloaded are in a couple of .dats: 

'ALN_Gravel paths lots.dat'

'ALN_Gravel paths -- aditional lots.dat'

So i can open each lot in the LE, and attempt to save it over the 'old' lot i get this message

Which does seem fair, as this lot presumably 'lives inside' one of the two .dat files somewhere and so there is no lot file to overwrite.

If i 'save as' and give each of these a new filename as a .lot file, the LE does let me do it. In fact the filename it gives is probably the name of the actual lot in game. Am i basically best to 'save as' each different lot as i edit it so i create 15 lots instead of 2 .dats, and then throw away the old .dats that i downloaded when i'm done? Or is there a better approach that i havent considered.

As a secondary question, does anyone know of a tutorial for things like changing the text displayed in game for a lot when you find it in the menu / menu icons etc? - i appreciate that this one is probably trickier! - My lots obviously just display as a little picture of them, and if i make more its going to be tough to work out what is what as there are a lot of variations on a theme. If i can get some little icons to represent what they are along with a text description i'll feel like i'm at least starting on the right foot.

[markussaage 762]

Hi there,

no, in fact those ALN lot are missing the base texture to make them work with every terrain mod I guess. There is no missing dependency. You can save lots with NO base texture only, if you use PIM-X. But this missing base texture causes a problem known as the "Water-Bug".

I did get this error message, too, while using the Lot Editor, and I don't know, what causes this message, so I saved my work with a new name. I think, this is a good idea anyway, because you alter the original file to your own taste. So you can have them both, the original and your edited version. Oh yes BTW: The "Save As" button is greyed out and cannot be used when you have a lot open in LE that acts as a Reward in the game. For this to save as the original lot you need to set the property 0xea3209f8 Conditional Building to 0x00.

Edit: Well, I think the reason here, that you cannot save them with the old file name is, that they're in one .dat file. Have you tried to use iLive's Reader to copy the lots to a new and empty file in the Reader, save them, edit them then in LE and after you're done, put the edited files back in the original .dat file? In this case you would have the original TGIs. Just a thought here...

Kind regards!

[rsc204 21,869]

4 hours ago, markussaage said:

no, in fact those ALN lot are missing the base texture to make them work with every terrain mod I guess. There is no missing dependency. You can save lots with NO base texture only, if you use PIM-X. But this missing base texture causes a problem known as the "Water-Bug".

In short, this was intended behaviour on the part of the creator. Some people don't mind the "Water-Bug", but I don't use content that has it. Preferring as you are doing here to add a base texture.

Personally I don't see the point of adding redundant files for cases like this. If I've chosen to add base textures, it's unlikely I'll want the old lots in the way. Ideally you'd use Save, which for lots in a DAT file, will save them as new Lot Files, but keeps the same ID. You can then DATPack them back into the original DAT file. If you do this making sure in the folder you pack, that your modified files load after the original .DAT, DAT packer will replace the original lots with your modified ones.

But if you must use Save As, then the modified lots will end up with a unique ID, so the above strategy won't work. I suspect the problem comes from how they were modded, since the Maxis tools want all lots to be a particular way, if not, it throws up problems. PIM-X is much more forgiving, since it was made by modders to improve upon the Maxis tools. I know you say the interface isn't easy to work out, but that's something you'll soon get beyond. The fact is, you are making your life harder by not using it. Because I could tell you how to use iLives Reader to fix all your problems, but that surely won't be simpler than using PIM-X. A few things that will help you to understand the interface of PIM-X, is knowing what an exemplar is and some of the basic types of them.

Think of a DAT file, much like a .zip file. It contains many files in it, but are they files, actually they are mostly exemplars. What's an exemplar, it's a sheet of properties you can edit. See my My First Mod tutorial for a brief explanation of Exemplars and the main ones we deal with modding, Building, Prop and LotConfiguration:

If you open PIM-X with the RRP dat file loaded (you can select which folders in plugins to load on startup), On the left list, find "Lots". On the right pane all the loaded lots will be listed for you, highlight one you want to edit, then in the lower right pane (this is the LotConfigurations file/exemplar), right click and select "Lot Editor". Here is where PIM-X starts to really show off it's advantages, you get two windows that appear. One showing the lot you are editing, a second which is a list of items you can put upon the lot. You can browse through an easy-to-see list of textures. Even props are given a preview to help you see what can choose from. I'm not going to explain how to use the LE itself, that's all covered in the manual you can find here. But once you are done, close the LotPreview Window (X in top Right), then don't forget to click Save at this point. Then you can edit the next lot. PIM-X will allow you to save files within a DAT, saving all the palaver of using other tools.

Want a custom icon for your lot? Right click the LotConfigurations file, this time select "Change Icon". Simply find your custom icon and it's added to the lot. Again, minimum of fuss. Of course, you'll need to be able to make your own icons, which are 176x44px PNG files. I can give you a template that works in Photoshop that adds the borders and other parts needed to match the SC4 default icons, but it's not strictly necessary. Can't help you if you are using GIMP though, my file doesn't play nice with GIMP .

Here's a typical Icon layout, actually it's four icons in one image, each of them is 44x44px in size so x4 that makes 176x44:

• The left one (greyed out) is displayed when a lot can not be selected (mostly reward lots).
• Next shows the icon when it can be selected.
• Then when it is currently selected.
• Lastly (right), when it's hovered over in the menu.

Because of the template file, all I have to do is make a single 44x44px image, copy/move it so I have four of them side-by-side and the layers/templates take care of everything else. The text was manually added, in this example so the icon changes and adapts, but that's not a requirement or always helpful.

If you don't want to use PIM-X, LEProp by iLives allows you to alter icons reasonably easily. But it's buggy and can corrupt your files. So make sure you create a backup before using it.

As for altering the menu order, I do this in iLives Reader, but a more user friendly editor is SC4 Tool. Either way, see here for more details on how to adjust them.

Why you may ask am I pushing you towards PIM-X, despite your preference to use the Maxis tools? Because time and time again I hear the same arguments for not using PIM-X. But, if you persevere with it, when it clicks and trust me on this, it will. You will never look back and be glad you are rid of the Maxis ones. In the meantime, we're all here to help you with any questions you may have. But until you understand a little more about the make-up of SC4 files, i.e those exemplars, some of the terms will seem alien. Not to mention, most people creating new lots, never touch the Maxis PIM, they copy existing lot templates. This is a bad habit you're better off not getting into. Again, I explain the role of PIM in my MFM tutorial, if you'd been using the PIM already, PIM-X wouldn't seem half as scary.

[MissVanleider 1,851]

@rsc204 Will read this when back from the shops thank you!

[MissVanleider 1,851]

Ok thanks to @rsc204 i have made a little progress. I like your tutorial but have tried to use pim-x as much as possible. I have one question about that, and then a specific question for a very simple lot i plan to create (and maybe upload if i can make something 'general' enough that it will work for a number of people) as i'm not aware of something which fills this purpose.

1) when i launch PIM-X it gives a list of directories that i can check or uncheck boxes for. What is the purpose of this and which boxes should be checked / unchecked (i dont need a detailed breakdown of this, just a nudge to 'change nothing' or 'never check the tickbox X' or whatever.

 

2) I am begining to like dragging mmp paths for eyecandy. Some of these paths could easily be imagined as unadopted roads in the countryside. This is lovely until you try to intersect with a 'real' sc4 network such as a road.

Some of the mmps can be dragged very close to the road but not right up to it as in the attached image. I want to make a lot to fill the tile in the red square to make this transition look seamless.

Basically i plan to have a grass base texture, which i will use the id 0x251c2000 as if i'm correct it should adapt to user terrain. I then think i need an overlay texture which will match the sidewalk and fill the space in the yellow square so you dont need to drag mmp right to the edge of the road.

So i think i need at minimum a version for rural areas with the dirt 'sidewalk' (for use with streets with some of the SAM options as here) and then one for more urban environments.

So, questions:

1) do overlay textures take overrides such as MGB TGN / sidewalk mods? If so i can lot something that has quite general use with just using a maxis texture on the edge of the lot with the grass texture mentioned above for the base texture, then this should just override for everyone meaning a very simple (boring)? lot but with no dependency

2) if the overlay textures do work as above, can anyone point out a good way of knowing which are the textrues that will be overridden?

3) for the 'rural' version i dont need it to be this clever as almost everyone will use the maxis dirt anyway as in my picture. Can someone tell me the texture ID of the maxis dirt, or if anyone has made any kind of texture catalogue that will allow me to not ask such silly questions next time?

Thank you for your support as ever!

[rsc204 21,869]

18 hours ago, MissVanleider said:

1) when i launch PIM-X it gives a list of directories that i can check or uncheck boxes for. What is the purpose of this and which boxes should be checked / unchecked (i dont need a detailed breakdown of this, just a nudge to 'change nothing' or 'never check the tickbox X' or whatever.

When you launch the Lot Editor (Maxis), it loads everything in the SC4 DATs (Original Game content), along with everything in your plugins folder. If you tried to do that in 2003 with many GBs of content, it simply would have fallen over. But not just that, it causes other problems for lotting too, for example trying to work out what dependencies you've used on your lots are.

It's always been good practise therefore to lot using only those plugins you need to work with. Which requires you to move files about before opening the LE. But in the case of PIM-X, you can instead select the folders containing the content you want to load. It also has a neat Dependency Checker tool, but note it can only find dependencies if the content is loaded in that session. But it also helps ensure you do not "overload" the application, there is a limit to the amount of content it can load. Beyond that, it will simply fail to open (Lock up, requiring you to close it in Task Manager), or run very slowly. This behaviour indicates you are close to the limit. Here's a rough breakdown of the folders:

• Maxis\SimCity 4 Deluxe
  This is where the SC4 Base content is. You should probably leave this selected every time.
• Maxis\SimCity 4 Deluxe\Plugins
  This is the Installation Dir Plugins folder, you probably aren't using it, so don't need this. But if you are storing plugins there, you should know how to handle it.
• Documents\SimCIty 4\Plugins
  This is the main Plugins folder in My Documents, or the "User Plugins". It's simply the root folder. Everything thereafter is subfolders of the root. Subfolders of these folders will automatically be loaded when the folder is selected.

18 hours ago, MissVanleider said:

Some of the mmps can be dragged very close to the road but not right up to it as in the attached image. I want to make a lot to fill the tile in the red square to make this transition look seamless.

Really hard to pull off in practise. To see what you are up against, zone medium or high density R/C next to the SAM street. Note how it suddenly has a sidewalk and fills the entire tile? By default Low Density shows grass, or no zoning shows transparency. But all network tiles use the whole tile, even when transparency is employed, the tile is "reserved". This is also why you can not MMP right up to it, because in effect, you would overlap the network and you can't place MMPs on network tiles.

Thinking about what you want, I wonder if there is a good lot-based solution here? For starters when you place a lot next to the SAM street, it will show grass automatically. This behaviour is very hard to avoid. On diagonals you can do a neat trick, because there is a nook between two diagonal textures where you can get the MMP right up against the road in the middle. If you start from this point dragging the MMP, assuming it has a little overlap, it will look great.

What you really need is an MMP with an overlapping prop... like a sidewalk or grass MMP? Check the attached file, perhaps that helps to solve this for you? If the concept works, I can adapt the shape/size and texture it uses. So it doesn't have to be a sidewalk or a square. It's something new I have lying around, but only recently (Thanks to BadSim) managed to make work.

18 hours ago, MissVanleider said:

Can someone tell me the texture ID of the maxis dirt, or if anyone has made any kind of texture catalogue that will allow me to not ask such silly questions next time?

Included in the attached .zip, two images showing the Maxis Textures and Overlays. Highlighting those TGN / SWN overrides. The problem is, many textures in use are not the Maxis ones, but I am looking to cover all those with my mods. So if you find such a texture, that isn't supported currently, let me know.

Currently the BSC Texture Mega Packs are covered, some from SFBT, SCLIT & Paeng's textures.

One last piece of advice, 251c1000 / 251c2000 / 251c3000 is just one texture. In fact, many Maxis textures are in such "families". That means, whichever wealth variant (1=$/2=$$/3=$$$) you use, the one displayed is set by the wealth of the lot itself. Not an issue if you use a unified wealth variant, but something to consider, typically you want to use $ wealth, because that's the one that will come up if a lot is placed besides a network for most users. If it's a growable lot, that group expands to 6 textures, each of the similarly IDd textures with dirt on them, is the equivalent texture shown when a lot is abandoned or dilapidated.

MaxisTexRef.zip

[MissVanleider 1,851]

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Thinking about what you want, I wonder if there is a good lot-based solution here? For starters when you place a lot next to the SAM street, it will show grass automatically

It will, it will. Always! I tried this a couple of different ways and same thing every time. I was aware of this but for some reason ignored it, its obviously the same effect as placing a 'park' lot next to a road where it fills in the space with the grass texture. Of course you are correct in this and this is obviously why nobody has created a lot for this purpose, just not really the best solution.

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

What you really need is an MMP with an overlapping prop... like a sidewalk or grass MMP? Check the attached file, perhaps that helps to solve this for you? If the concept works, I can adapt the shape/size and texture it uses. So it doesn't have to be a sidewalk or a square. It's something new I have lying around, but only recently (Thanks to BadSim) managed to make work.

 

Very exciting! At the moment somewhat mysterious too! I will test this after my big shop this morning.

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

One last piece of advice, 251c1000 / 251c2000 / 251c3000 is just one texture. In fact, many Maxis textures are in such "families". That means, whichever wealth variant (1=$/2=$$/3=$$$) you use, the one displayed is set by the wealth of the lot itself. Not an issue if you use a unified wealth variant,

This is really helpful to stop me being on the wrong track, one of those things you assume totally straightforward until you start to think! 

I use unified wealth, so had gravitated towards the '2' assuming it was medium wealth as that is what is displayed everywhere for me. I didn't make the leap to realising that my unified wealth comes after the texturing actually and i was better to go for the $ version. I think probably a moot point anyway at this stage but very useful for the future, as is this fab directory.

Thank you, update later

[MissVanleider 1,851]

This works much better, thank you very much @rsc204! A little demonstation using previous example, i had to modify my approach a little but think it works well. I'm very happy, even if this has been 0% lot based! 

1. Removed the tile to the north as i wanted to use it for next step.

2. Added 'fake' / impossible zoning to get sidewalk texture to show up. (Hit ctrl and dragged this tile over the street to the west)

Plopped the super mmp sidewalk. It didnt play too nice with the sand in the next step, i'm guessing because the size leads to a tiling effect. so used an intermediate sized mmp in between mgb sidewalk and where the sand will be..

4. Finished off, albeit quickly and roughly, with the grey sand and then the brown sand.

 

[rsc204 21,869]

On 11/03/2017 at 2:26 PM, MissVanleider said:

Plopped the super mmp sidewalk. It didnt play too nice with the sand in the next step, i'm guessing because the size leads to a tiling effect. so used an intermediate sized mmp in between mgb sidewalk and where the sand will be..

Actually it's to do with the height of the models. In order for such props to overhang the network, they must be raised slightly (.2m). So if the MMP is at ground level, it won't be able to overlap the sidewalk MMP. However, it's a nice effect you get blending them together here. If I release a set of sidewalk MMPs, I want to make a few different sizes ranging from full tile to half quarter and maybe even smaller tiles. That way you would be able to use it more flexibly.

[MeMyself&I 379]

30 minutes ago, rsc204 said:

However, it's a nice effect you get blending them together here

Agreed.  I think that looks pretty darned cool, actually!  A nice imperfection that we see quite often IRL, almost like the concrete is busted up and the dirt beneath is coming through.