Cities: Skylines - Snowfall DLC Reveal - Trams! Snow!

[GC_Vos 714]

 

YES YES YES SMILEY FACES

Everybody board the hypetram!

 

[Roadman20 601]

I'll say this now, I'll pass on the aesthetically pleasing weather update when the simulation and other existing services are still facing unresolved problems.  However, trams are useful if they are not limited to roadways.  I am waiting on further information before making a final decision, but the emphasis on the weather was disappointing to say the least for myself.

[hitzu 139]

Did they combine trams and metro in one network?

[GC_Vos 714]

I don't think they did, it looks like the tracks are integrated in the roads.

I do agree about the weather, I would have preferred the whole thing being transport related. Still not complaining because the snow looks very good.

[Roadman20 601]

1 minute ago, GC_Vos said:

I don't think they did, it looks like the tracks are integrated in the roads.

I do agree about the weather, I would have preferred the whole thing being transport related. Still not complaining because the snow looks very good.

I will say the snow does look good, but it's trapped on a snow only theme.  Although there'll be a mod to break that out, but the only thing the mod community couldn't do is bring about 'seasons' that people were really looking for.

[hitzu 139]

Quote

I don't think they did, it looks like the tracks are integrated in the roads.

It doesn't meant that there is no standalone tracks. IMO they just didn't reveal them yet because the did integrated bike lanes as well as separate pike paths in the past, why would it be different for trams?

0:29 and 0:42 - a snowplow. It seems that snow isn't just an aesthetic thing.

[GC_Vos 714]

Oh I don't doubt that, but it'd make no sense to link invisible metro to visible tram.

[hitzu 139]

1 minute ago, GC_Vos said:

Oh I don't doubt that, but it'd make no sense to link invisible metro to visible tram.

Trams look very similar to metro wagons. I think they are the same thing now.

[GC_Vos 714]

They do look similar yes, but my assumption is you'll hook up a tram depot to tram roads, then plan route lines like busses. Unless they made some kind of light rail tunnel transition to metro which I doubt they have. We'll see.

[hitzu 139]

I think tram-on-street is just another type of roads you have to build first before you can put a line there. And metro tunnels now can be raised onto the ground as a separate rails. I think at least this would be very logical to upgrade existing metro system instead of adding another complementary transport system.

 

Also some details https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/41os39/cities_skylines_snowfall_reveal_trailer/cz3xupv

[Ltw 401]

This update looks promising. I've been looking forward to having trams for ages, I think it would look much better than the buses I have right now. The weather is also a nice addition, it would make the game more dynamic I think.

27 minutes ago, Roadman20 said:

I will say the snow does look good, but it's trapped on a snow only theme.  Although there'll be a mod to break that out, but the only thing the mod community couldn't do is bring about 'seasons' that people were really looking for.

The website of Paradox describes it like this: "All of these new inclusions will revolve around the expansion’s central feature: an in-game weather system". Thus it seems like they will introduce seasons to the game. However, we don't know that much at the moment, I expect that they will introduce two seasons, summer and winter but I highly doubt that they will make various weather-types that could change daily (like rain, hailstones or sunny/cloudy weather). We'll just have to wait until the release I guess, till then it is mostly guessing about the details.

I am curious about how it will deal with assets from the Workshop. I hope the compatibility is better than right after the release of After Dark, I guess it would be easier to place snow on custom assets automatically but I'm not an expert on designing assets, so I'm not sure about that.

[hitzu 139]

17 minutes ago, Ltw said:

The weather is also a nice addition, it would make the game more dynamic I think.

Snow will appear on particular maps only.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/41os39/cities_skylines_snowfall_reveal_trailer/cz3x866

[Ryno917 102]

14 minutes ago, Ltw said:

I expect that they will introduce two seasons, summer and winter but I highly doubt that they will make various weather-types that could change daily (like rain, hailstones or sunny/cloudy weather).

Rain and fog are the weather types being added. Snow is for particular maps only.

I haven't watched the teaser vid yet, but I'm pretty excited for trams!

[Roadman20 601]

31 minutes ago, Ltw said:

This update looks promising. I've been looking forward to having trams for ages, I think it would look much better than the buses I have right now. The weather is also a nice addition, it would make the game more dynamic I think.

The website of Paradox describes it like this: "All of these new inclusions will revolve around the expansion’s central feature: an in-game weather system". Thus it seems like they will introduce seasons to the game. However, we don't know that much at the moment, I expect that they will introduce two seasons, summer and winter but I highly doubt that they will make various weather-types that could change daily (like rain, hailstones or sunny/cloudy weather). We'll just have to wait until the release I guess, till then it is mostly guessing about the details.

I am curious about how it will deal with assets from the Workshop. I hope the compatibility is better than right after the release of After Dark, I guess it would be easier to place snow on custom assets automatically but I'm not an expert on designing assets, so I'm not sure about that.

Quote

"As it stands, no, it won't affect the current time system. The snow maps are separate from normal maps and experience perpetual winter AKA how it feels to live where we are. " - TotallyMoo on Reddit

As it stands, there are no 'changing' seasons, just one permanent season of your choice.  The new winter environs looks nice, but the challenges associated with them I feel will end up like the half-baked approach to fixing tourism and crime that occurred in After Dark.  I am not planning to build on the new winter maps anytime soon anyhow.

I would like to know more about trams and their various options; however, I could still live without them since I can build Seattle's light rail with the existing heavy rail to tram-like mods.  I know they've left out some things, but anything winter related has no interest to me.  I know for the Europeans, the introduction of trams was important.  I'll be following the details on trams because I like having the option.  

Personally, I was hoping against a weather DLC because CO needs to fix their underlying simulation before they try to keep adding more services.  The new city services will inherent the same problems of the original services, which are based in the simulation mechanics itself.  I'll need to know what other things they are offering in the DLC; but for now, I'm leaning against a day one purchase of Snowfall.

EDIT: Grammar; plus the rain for stereotyping Seattle comes free.

[Ltw 401]

19 minutes ago, hitzu said:

Snow will appear on a particular maps only.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/41os39/cities_skylines_snowfall_reveal_trailer/cz3x866

Okay. That makes it clear. I hope they will make it a seasonal thing, as said by Roadman20 it appears to be a permanent thing, which wouldn't make much sense to me. However, it still has to be released. Thus I guess will have to wait until that's confirmed.

6 minutes ago, Ryno917 said:

Rain and fog are the weather types being added. Snow is for particular maps only.
 

That's nice. Not a reason to buy the Snowfall DLC but a nice addition. The trams are the main reason for me to buy it anyways.

4 minutes ago, Roadman20 said:

"As it stands, no, it won't affect the current time system. The snow maps are separate from normal maps and experience perpetual winter AKA how it feels to live where we are. " - TotallyMoo on Reddit.

As it stands, there are no 'changing' seasons, just one permanent season of your choice.  The new winter environs looks nice, but the challenges associated with them I feel will end up like the half-baked approach to fixing tourism and crime that occurred in After Dark.  I am not planning to build on the new winter maps anytime soon anyhow.

I would like to know more about trams and their various options; however, I could still live without them since I can build Seattle's light rail with the existing heavy rail to tram-like mods.  I know they've left out some things, but anything winter related has no interest to me.  I know for the Europeans, the introduction of trams was important.  I'll be following the details on trams because I like having the option.  

Personally, I was hoping against a weather DLC because CO needs to fix their underlying simulation before they try to keep adding more services.  The new city services will inherent the same problems of the original services, which are based in the simulation mechanics themselves.  I'll need to know what other things they are offering in the DLC, but as it stands, I'm leaning against a day one purchase of Snowfall.

I don't think they will fix that in a DLC you'd have to pay for. People aren't going to buy an expansion-pack which mainly fixes things that shouldn't be broken in the first place. If I would've been the designer of the game I wouldn't do that either to be honest, just focus on creating added value by designing new options/assets which are visible. However, I think they would fix certain problems/bugs in the simulation in free patches. I get the impression that the employees of Paradox are quite involved in the needs of the users, thus I think they will solve some problems that have gotten their attention. I guess they will fix some problems in the free patch that will be released at the same time the expansion-pack will be released, they did the same thing with the release of After Dark, I think their approach will be the same with the release of Snowfall.

[Roadman20 601]

55 minutes ago, Ltw said:

I don't think they will fix that in a DLC you'd have to pay for. People aren't going to buy an expansion-pack which mainly fixes things that shouldn't be broken in the first place. If I would've been the designer of the game I wouldn't do that either to be honest, just focus on creating added value by designing new options/assets which are visible. However, I think they would fix certain problems/bugs in the simulation in free patches. I get the impression that the employees of Paradox are quite involved in the needs of the users, thus I think they will solve some problems that have gotten their attention. I guess they will fix some problems in the free patch that will be released at the same time the expansion-pack will be released, they did the same thing with the release of After Dark, I think their approach will be the same with the release of Snowfall.

TotallyMoo has confirmed multiple times to variations to the same question on permanent snow, which unfortunately is true in both stickied threads.

I'd agree that they shouldn't make a paid DLC to fix things that shouldn't be broken in the first place. However, my point is that why advocate people to buy this DLC adding additional services in the first DLC didn't work as advertised and still remain broken still at this time. (i.e. - tourism and crime) and got crutch up'd by mods?  Mods should not be propping up what is clearly broken.  I can already see snowplow services get whacked by the vehicle limit and that pretty big snow city is going to grind to a halt along with everything else.  Most big cities are still reeling with crazy deathwave mechanics, I still think they should just straight up remove that service altogether.

CO has brought out patches to address some of these issues in free patches, they still need to serious work on their underlying simulation via free patches because it's extremely weak and any new service they bring is going to suffer the same broken state that some of the original release services suffered since the game came out.

Trams alone isn't enough for me buy the Snowfall DLC the moment is it immediately released, although I understand people's strong desire for it.  European cities and trams are synonymous with each other, I know from visiting enough European cities to understand.  For those building American cities, like myself, this initial DLC announcement leaves much desired.  

The other upcoming details of what is free and what is paid DLC along with the pricing is going to be key for myself and others.  I think $15 is too high if it turns out the majority of the effort was to bring in weather and just add one transport option via trams.    Snow is the only confirmed dynamic weather, the rain and fog are cosmetic add ins with no effect on city functions.

Unfortunately, I could see the trend starting between what people want (i.e. - More transport options) and something aesthetic like putting in weather. We sort of got that in After Dark with the free Day/Night cycle coupled with paid taxi stands/international airport/big bus station/jails/etc.  Obviously, trams are not the only mass transit option being add as part of the Snowfall DLC, based off After Dark's 'surprise' mass transit content.  Based off previous experience though, the only thing I use from the After Dark DLC is really the free Day/Night cycle.  I have yet to use any of the paid content from After Dark in any of my cities, but this is a personal thing of course, which should be obvious at this point why I'm hesitate to buy this new DLC.  Why buy when I clearly haven't even used it?

I'm not trying to convince anyone why they shouldn't buy Snowfall DLC, but they should think twice to just pick up the DLC instantly upon release because of how After Dark was handled.  Hell, even though I'm on the fence on Snowfall, I will probably purchase because of the trams, but CO does deserve to hear some due criticism on their game because that subreddit is fanboying too hard.

EDIT: Grammar, plus clarity.

[Judazzz 1,936]

Although I'm excited about the new features, I share the Roadman's reservations wholeheartedly: it's nice to add new gadgets and effects, but there are still lots of issues from even the vanilla game that need to be addressed (not even talking about AD, which only added more... umm... let's say unpolished mechanics). I've seen countless promises to the tune of 'We're looking into it!' (granted, non-committal), but to be honest, I think CO's attitude towards fixing actual game play/mechanics issues leaves quite a lot to be desired. So how I see it is that basically this latest DLC will add additional bloat (good-looking, sweet, delicious bloat, but bloat nonetheless), where tweaking the core mechanics of several aspects of the game would have been a much more prudent move (and also something the community has been crying out for on several occasions).

I'm not sure whether I'm going to buy the new DLC either. Firstly because the news is still fresh and the available info scarce, but secondly - and possibly more important - when I look back at After Dark and assess what I truly got out of it, it boils down to the gorgeous day and night cycle (which I only use sporadically, however - building after dark is virtually impossible), the new unique buildings and parks, taxi's and prison (both of which are basically plop-and-forget - as far as simulation depth is concerned, they add nothing) and some of the new growable assets (some of which look fantastic) - haven't used the cargo station or intl. airport, the Leisure and Tourism specializations are forgettable (and much more annoying, still broken!) to the point that I don't even use them.

So all in all AD was a mixed bag, and one that even several months after release doesn't feel like a finished, polished product. And all these things play a role in me being a bit wary about buying even more DLC - not that I think CO doesn't deserve the money (as far as publishers and their interaction with the player base go, they barely have any competition worth mentioning), but as an act of protest - a protest against the fact that releasing ever-more content while long-standing issues remain unaddressed is not the way forward.

[Shroomblaze 320]

I agree with you @Judazzz I'm a bit disappointed with the announcement. Trams are cool, but I could care less about snow and the fact that it's restricted to a certain map type bothers me because I know for a fact that I will probably never play with it because snow has never interested me that much in the first place. I really hope they have more they are hiding because as it is right now it seems kind of a boring expansion. They seem to be focusing more on Sandbox mode than on actual game play mechanics although they are adding the snow covered road mechanics needing snow plows but again that is restricted to a certain map type. I really hope they bring many new mod tools and features that us modders have been requesting since the release of vanilla. 

I hope we get a lot of new stuff too other than just snow covered buildings because it seems like that job would of taken the art department quite a long time having to update every single building with snow roof top models and textures, trees, cars etc. 

I really wish they focused more on adding that great feature boformer posted on reddit a while back that explained a good way to expand zoneable areas to grow larger buildings. Also make Tourism have it's own demand and not a commercial specialization. I honestly thought they would be working on those things after how much positive feedback each of those reddit posts got and CO/Paradox responding to them. Let's see what other features they announce soon, I know this snow thing is not the only thing they have created for us.

[Simulanten 681]

Me too. Underwhelmed.

Beautiful winter theme park but nothing (yet?) about making the game deeper, richer in terms of simulation. Trams are nice and needed but as long as I feel that the whole economical and social simulation is as ridiculous as it is now I will stick to my mods'n'assets-frankenstein-set-up of C:S to work on my visual only cities ignoring stupid skulls and icons of events that actually don't matter.

Remember Banished? Where winters really kicked your *ss in case you didn't collect enough goods and firewood to be prepared? C:S's simulation is sooo far from that level of immersion really. I feel like slowly slowly I'm starting to wait for a new city simulation game that gets the simulation part right if CO/Paradox continue on their city tycoon duckburg track.

Yes, this is a rant. And chirpy wearing my hipster hat didn't help.

[Vals Loeder 27]

Looking forward to it

[QuantumChicken 82]

They are becoming like EA. Instead of fixing the current issues, they go and make another DLC. Not impressed in the slightest...

[boformer 3,169]

As a modder I'm not really impressed. Here are the pros and cons I see:

- Snow is a biome type
+ Snow on buildings and vehicles seems to be auto-generated, so it will work with existing custom assets
- Roads with tram tracks are just another road type, so the position of the tracks is fixed. You also can't combine bike lanes and tram tracks or roads with trees and tram tracks
+ ski runs (like pedestrian paths)
- no standalone tram tracks
- tram and subway are separate systems
 

 

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

After 4 months giving the benefit of the doubt, waiting for fixes to daylight, crime, tourism and more importantly, a deeper and more stable asset editor, I really didn't expect this. There's so much unfinished business. We have terrain themes for now to make snowy maps...although may not be as deep as the expansion...but this is like sitting in a restaurant where I sent back my steak to have it more well done.......waiting for the waiter to bring back my steak I get a frosted very nice cup cake (that took a lot of work) 2 hours later with no mention of what happened to my steak. So I continue to nibble on the biscuits and salad.

[hitzu 139]

2 hours ago, boformer said:

- no standalone tram tracks
- tram and subway are separate systems

Is it confirmed?

[Linoa06 1,374]

17 hours ago, GC_Vos said:

Oh I don't doubt that, but it'd make no sense to link invisible metro to visible tram.

It wouldn't make much sense from a system point of view but I'd like a way to link both, still. But Im not gonna be picky since I already use rail for metro and never use the actual metro tool.

.

[GC_Vos 714]

I have a similar feeling right now to where I'll probably still be using regular train over tram. It's gonna come down to how it's implemented. I've seen two roads types so far (small road and avenue) so I really hope it's gonna be more than just that.

[Ltw 401]

I read a lot of doubts about this new extension pack and I have to say that I understand those doubts. It is all about implementation. Since there are some negative experiences with After Dark (I also hate the fact that tourism and leisure is still broken) it makes sense to think that Snowfall will have similar issues too. Personally I really like After Dark but I also think that it is a raw product, it's not fine-tuned. Even though it has some issues that should've been solved by now I really like the fact that they've added bicycle lanes (which I use a lot) and that they've added some other assets for more reality. I think my experience with Snowfall will be the same, it could be an unfinished product with some problems that shouldn't be there in the first place, but I really want to have those options. I've been looking forward to having trams for ages and only that is enough reason for me to buy it. This doesn't mean that I am fine with any problems that might be involved in this product. If it would not function the way it has to it is important to complain about that in order to get it fixed (hopefully).

A big limitation of Cities:Skylines for me personally is the fact that there is an agent limit. Even though I am bothered by this I understand why they did it. In order to make it playable for normal computers it makes sense to solve it this way. I also think that a lot of issues have to do with this agent limit. If tourism would be fixed but all those extra tourists means that there would be a drop in my public transportation I wouldn't be happy too. Raising the agent-limit is something Paradox is doing for quite some time, but I think this has to be about fixing other problems too.

[Kaputnik 27]

Subjectively, this doesn't look like it'll float my boat at all unfortunately.
Not that my little drop in the ocean matters in the grand scheme of things, but I thought I'd get it off my chest at least

Looking back at AD, the only two things I can think of that I've used are the old town policy and the cargo hub.
The rest was interesting for a day or two, but I haven't used any of it since. I have a feeling that the same will end up being the case for Snowfall.

I'd rather have urban rail skins plus micro train stations than a dedicated tram system - weather will likely end up being a nuisance like day/night did, and snow maps might be fun for a side project city, so I guess I'm personally more interested in the "misc" additions they haven't announced yet - there's of course the risk of it just being skiing related etc.

For me the question is whether I want to "donate" money to Paradox/CO the same way I did with AD. I'd like to support further development, but if this is the way they prioritize I'm not so sure anymore.

[boformer 3,169]

8 hours ago, hitzu said:

Is it confirmed?

No, but there are no signs for the opposite. I know a lot about the games code, especially the network system.

The fact that there is a tram depot also makes it unlikely that the 2 systems are connected.

 

[Linoa06 1,374]

3 hours ago, Ltw said:

I read a lot of doubts about this new extension pack and I have to say that I understand those doubts. It is all about implementation. Since there are some negative experiences with After Dark (I also hate the fact that tourism and leisure is still broken) it makes sense to think that Snowfall will have similar issues too. Personally I really like After Dark but I also think that it is a raw product, it's not fine-tuned. Even though it has some issues that should've been solved by now I really like the fact that they've added bicycle lanes (which I use a lot) and that they've added some other assets for more reality. I think my experience with Snowfall will be the same, it could be an unfinished product with some problems that shouldn't be there in the first place, but I really want to have those options. I've been looking forward to having trams for ages and only that is enough reason for me to buy it. This doesn't mean that I am fine with any problems that might be involved in this product. If it would not function the way it has to it is important to complain about that in order to get it fixed (hopefully).

A big limitation of Cities:Skylines for me personally is the fact that there is an agent limit. Even though I am bothered by this I understand why they did it. In order to make it playable for normal computers it makes sense to solve it this way. I also think that a lot of issues have to do with this agent limit. If tourism would be fixed but all those extra tourists means that there would be a drop in my public transportation I wouldn't be happy too. Raising the agent-limit is something Paradox is doing for quite some time, but I think this has to be about fixing other problems too.

With every patch they increase that limit, though, and while I think some people with mega-PCs are absolutely selfish in their demands for more agents, I do indeed believe a lot of game issues stem from the limit. Maybe they could "simulate" some of those agents in the numbers, so that your agent population doesn't drop the moment you pass the cap or something.

I wish they fixed more issues though, that would be great. That's what I welcome the agent upgrades for, rather than whining at my underwhelmed CPU.