San Bernadino shooting, at least 14 people dead, 20 people wounded

[Toothless Stitch 2,901]

A shooting tool place in San Bernadino, CA, today. According to reports there are 1-3 suspects supposedly starting to spray around at the Inalnd Regional Center in San Bernadino, CA, a facitily for people with developmental disabilities. An employee texted her father that people were shot. Additionally, a bomb squad found a suspicious package at the facility. It's not known if the number of victims is correct and, if so, whether it's the actual number of deaths or including injured people. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

This is an ongoing story at this time.

On the spot news is something that I sometimes think is just too immediate.  However, that's the global village for you.  This is taking place thousands of kilometres from me.  Should I care?  I don't know until the story settles down.

[Mr Saturn64 742]

14 dead, 20 wounded http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34987697

What bothers me is that already the political talk has started.  People don't think of these victims as people, they think of them as potential to spread political ideology.

[MintberryCrunch 83]

If there were multiple shooters, then that sets this one apart from the other recent ones; not a "lone wolf", but a group of people with a plan.

But unbelievable that the last mass shooting doesn't even have time to leave the news before the next one happens. Welcome to modern America. 

[Easy Bakes 253]

Yea another  one.

think I will just not watch TV anymore

[Jasoncw 11,940]

14 dead, 20 wounded http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34987697

What bothers me is that already the political talk has started.  People don't think of these victims as people, they think of them as potential to spread political ideology.

"Political talk" is the democratic process that determines what we as a nation decides to do (or not do) to address the problem. 

Normally I'd say that now is your time to talk about it since in a few weeks the issue will fade back into the background, but at the rate we're going there might be another shooting in the headlines before that has a chance to happen. :/ 

[LexusInfernus 908]

Whatever, these were Muslims, so no doubt they will be treated like terrorists, regardless of what their actual intention was. It will result in more Islamophobia, Trump and Carson will go on to talk about how awful Muslims are and how its vital that they are kept out of American as much as possible, there will be more calls for strikes on IS and that will be the end of it until the next idiot grabs a gun and starts shooting people. 

Very convenient for the Republicans though, now they shift the discussion away from the result of their own hate speech against Planned Parenthood and their opposition against gun control and focus once again on their favorite scapegoat. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

While the names appear to be Islamic, do we even know if these shooters were religious at all?  When it comes to soft targets, a school and facility for the disabled is at the top of my prey list.

It is very important that the motivation of these people be uncovered.  At the same time, America must look at its love affair with the second amendment.  The intentions of this 200+ year old document are surely not what we see now.  By the lights of the founders, America has become rather obscene.

Is is possible to have constitutional fundamentalists?

  Edited December 3, 2015 by A Nonny Moose  
Add a question.

[LexusInfernus 908]

While the names appear to be Islamic, do we even know if these shooters were religious at all?  When it comes to soft targets, a school and facility for the disabled is at the top of my prey list.

It is very important that the motivation of these people be uncovered.  At the same time, America must look at its love affair with the second amendment.  The intentions of this 200+ year old document are surely not what we see now.  By the lights of the founders, America has become rather obscene.

Is is possible to have constitutional fundamentalists?

I doubt that for the Republican candidates the intentions of these people matter. It are Muslims who killed innocent people, therefor they are Jihadist terrorists. It fit right into the narrative they have been using since essentially 9/11. Facts so far mean very little to these candidates. 

  Edited December 3, 2015 by LexusInfernus  

[Meg 368]

 

It is very important that the motivation of these people be uncovered.  At the same time, America must look at its love affair with the second amendment.  The intentions of this 200+ year old document are surely not what we see now.  By the lights of the founders, America has become rather obscene.

 

What, exactly, do you suggest we do?  

 

 

 

Is is possible to have constitutional fundamentalists?

Yes.   A lot of people are.  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

My dear Meg,

I am afraid it is too late for the United States of America to fix the gun culture.  That cat is long out of the bag and someone has discarded the bag.

I have visited the U.S.A on many occasions in my working life, and found it to one of the most pleasant of countries, but since I retired in (essentially 1990) things have gone to Hades in a hand basket.  I don't know why, except that the 9/11 incident seems to have destroyed some part of the American psyche.  On my last trip to New York, I had the good fortune to have lunch at Windows on the World.  Very impressive. 

The destruction of these buildings seem to have destroyed the soul of America.  I am at a loss to explain why this should be.  I am not only sad, but I am angry that something has happened to a good neighbour that has stood by us through thick and thin, although we haven't always been the best of friends.  In the early 19th century there was certainly a lot of tit for tat, but in the long run, we used to have the longest undefended border in the world.  Now we have suspicion, a lot of it caused by undeserved and unthinking knee-jerk politics.  How very sad.

[Cool_Z 1,547]

 

I am afraid it is too late for the United States of America to fix the gun culture.  That cat is long out of the bag and someone has discarded the bag.

I don't think it is too late... it's never too late. But it would take an insane amount of willpower and an insane amount of time to change things.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

 

I am afraid it is too late for the United States of America to fix the gun culture.  That cat is long out of the bag and someone has discarded the bag.

I don't think it is too late... it's never too late. But it would take an insane amount of willpower and an insane amount of time to change things.

I could qualify that by saying "in my lifetime" which won't be more than another few lustra.

[Duke87 1,070]

I have visited the U.S.A on many occasions in my working life, and found it to one of the most pleasant of countries, but since I retired in (essentially 1990) things have gone to Hades in a hand basket.  I don't know why, except that the 9/11 incident seems to have destroyed some part of the American psyche.  On my last trip to New York, I had the good fortune to have lunch at Windows on the World.  Very impressive. 

The destruction of these buildings seem to have destroyed the soul of America.  I am at a loss to explain why this should be.

It's because people are scared. The game has changed substantially. During the cold war, our enemies wore uniforms, and while they had nuclear warheads, so did we. We were rivals on equal terms and the principle of mutually assured destruction was effective at preventing any heads of state from doing anything rash. Aside from the threat of nuclear armageddon, Americans did not have to worry about being harmed by Soviets in their day to day lives.

With terrorism it's different. Terrorism does not have a flag or even a face. Terrorists don't have a civilian population they care about protecting. Terrorists are not dissuaded by any of our military capabilities and have demonstrated a willingness to attack us directly at any chance they get. Meanwhile since they are not a country it is impossible for us to retaliate directly. With terrorism, it's not a fair fight and we are at a disadvantage.

Couple this with the rise of China as a major world power and growing economic problems at home, and America is scared because it realizes it is in decline. Unable to accept this, America flails and claws in whatever way it can in a desperate attempt to preserve its status.

The American psyche was once in part defined by a philosophy of exceptionalism, that we were on top of the food chain and rightfully belonged there. If some part of it has been destroyed, it is because we have gone from being an empire in its golden age to being an empire that has begun to unravel.

 

 

As for the story in question here, we have reached the point where mass shootings have almost become more statistics than news. A development which I actually encourage because I believe that, counterintuitively, it is for the better. The biggest reason mass shootings have become so popular is because how effective they are at getting attention. If everyone grows weary of them and stops caring, then a significant part of the motive to carry such crimes out goes away and their frequency will decline.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

<snip>

 

As for the story in question here, we have reached the point where mass shootings have almost become more statistics than news. A development which I actually encourage because I believe that, counter-intuitively, it is for the better. The biggest reason mass shootings have become so popular is because how effective they are at getting attention. If everyone grows weary of them and stops caring, then a significant part of the motive to carry such crimes out goes away and their frequency will decline.

You will certainly get no argument from me on that score.  The problem here is that this kind of "sensational" news sells media.  To really get this off the front page would be a blessing, IMHO.  It would be better if it was handled no better than a wife-beating, showing up only on the police blotter and not involving heads of state or state governments in a news fashion.  Taking away the sensationalism would remove a lot of the stinger from these crumbs.

Then, of course, there is the NRA problem.  That organization needs its wings clipped, if not removed altogether.  This probably means a general re-education of the Republican Party, which seems to have put its head where the sun don't shine.  If Donald Trump is the best they can do, the party is dead, dead, dead.  It should lie down and be buried.

Maybe the United States is approaching one of Thomas Jefferson's points where a revolution would not be a bad thing.

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

 

Then, of course, there is the NRA problem.  That organization needs its wings clipped, if not removed altogether.  This probably means a general re-education of the Republican Party, which seems to have put its head where the sun don't shine.

This kind of mentality is exactly why 'liberals' can't find solutions to gun violence. They're too busy using mass murder as a point scoring exercise against their political opponents and demonizing boogeymen like the NRA to actually think of anything productive.

  Edited December 4, 2015 by MilitantRadical  

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ Ah!  But you see, I am not a Liberal in the American sense.  I am an outside observer, and in general the lobbies of Congress have too damned much to say about how things go down there.  Your tripartite congressional system has reached Peter's Pretty Pass (See the Peter Principle by Laurence J. Peter).  You need a lateral arabesque to a previously prepared position, but you don't have that position.  Refer to Thomas Jefferson for what to do now.  (Revolution)!

The question is how to go about such a thing in view of the fact that you would be strongly opposed by the massive steamroller of the federal government which would squash your little movement flat very quickly.  Even if you could revitalize one of the moribund political parties (the TEA partiers tried that and you see what happened to them), the inertia is so great that you'd find America has a mind like a steel trap: rusted shut.

Up here with a Westminster Parliamentary model, we've just done what had to be done.  We chucked the Conservative government that had become oppressive after 10 years in and replaced them with not the official opposition but with the third place party who are not nearly so socialist as the NDP.  The Liberal Party of Canada got in because of strategic voting in which most of the electorate followed the dictum "anyone but conservative", didn't trust the track record of the New Democratic Party after a serious fiasco trying to rule Ontario (Canada's most populous province), and a lacklustre leader.  It was a landslide, by the way.  The Maritime Provinces went totally Liberal which is unusual for them since there is a major Conservative power base there.  We get a kick at the cat every five years or if the government loses a major money vote in the House of Commons.

[Skimbo 304]

Republicans. I see them quite one-sided. It's theese reactions. Uh! there has been a shooting! We need more guns to prevet theese in near future. When it comes to republicans, every toddler aged 3 should get his own gun.

I smell lobbies. Lobbies which grew too powerful.

 

Most of theese shootings might not even happen if US had legal standards like many european countries have in terms of weapon-laws. But not being able to buy some guns as you do your grocery shopping next door - what a utter loss of "freedom".

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Republicans. I see them quite one-sided. It's these reactions. Uh! there has been a shooting! We need more guns to prevent these in near future. When it comes to republicans, every toddler aged 3 should get his own gun.

I smell lobbies. Lobbies which grew too powerful.

 

Most of these shootings might not even happen if US had legal standards like many European countries have in terms of weapon-laws. But not being able to buy some guns as you do your grocery shopping next door - what a utter loss of "freedom".

 

There is a difference between 'freedom' and 'licentiousness'.  For the latter take item 2 (or 3).  Ethics, anyone?

[MintberryCrunch 83]

Latest news reveals the female shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS. Surprise, surprise. 

[Meg 368]

My dear Meg,

I am afraid it is too late for the United States of America to fix the gun culture. 

Then would you please, as a personal favor to me, stop preaching at us to fix it?   These incidents are wearisome enough without that.

 

 

 

The destruction of these buildings seem to have destroyed the soul of America.  I am at a loss to explain why this should be. 

As Duke says, people are scared but it goes beyond that.  As soon as the fear kicked in, the terrorists won.   This has resulted in a series of events where we are ignoring our own values.  Examples include:

- Routine intrusive searches of ordinary citizens who are going about legal activities.  We all know about airports but has anyone gone to a football game lately?  They used to hand out tote bags with the team logo.   Now carry-in possessions are limited to a clear plastic bag and everyone gets patted down or wanded.

- Government review of telephone and online information.   Don't lend your cell phone to the wrong person or you will wind up on a watch list.   Meanwhile, they can check on who is calling who when.

- Waterboarding.   (It's "not torture"?  Really?  Watch it being done to a close relative then tell me how you feel.)

This is compounded by the fact that the last time we won a war, we did it by dropping a nuclear bomb.    Not something that is done these days even though some people wonder why.   I believe the record will show that most military action taken since then has been mostly ineffective.   There are, of course, exceptions.    How many people did we lose in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.   and for what?

The so-called war on terrorism can not be won by conventional military means.  It is ideological.   And we barely understand the ideology that is motivating people here.    Look at this latest guy --  American born, educated, well paying job, wife, baby -- this was not a marginalized individual who couldn't figure out how he fit into the world.   There are many who would love to have what he had.   and, yet, here we are.   and we don't understand why.

 

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Well Meg, I am sorry if you feel that repeating the obvious is offensive.  I'll stop, but you must realize that repetition of the obvious is now a part of western culture due to the nonsense coming out of the advertising agencies.

If America is running scared, clearly a campaign of some kind is necessary to restore its confidence.  I don't think the media are helping, especially not the Internet and the so-called social networks which carry more disinformation than anything else.  In the WW II time frame, Americans were confident.  What happened to all that?  Is it that they are so inwardly focused on their entitlements that anything that might threaten these even slightly causes tight circles in the living room?  Focus on things rather than the country is an error, and should be countered somehow.  I am beginning to believe that JFK was completely correct in his "Ask not ..." speech.  People seem to have ignored that.

I don't know the inner workings of your people well enough to attempt an approach to that.  Maybe you need to resurrect George M. Cohan, and start clamping down on the three men in a garage garbage that goes under the appellation of music these days.  Too much of it is negative. 

Something has to get to the grass roots and unite the people.  I am not at all convinced that the present circus having to do with the office of POTUS is going to be anything but more divisive.  What ever happened to the idea that once all the campaigning and shouting was over, everyone pulled on the rope in the same direction?  Too many sour grapes are getting squeezed which give only vinegar.  I think the so-called 'affirmative action' programmes are nothing but divisive.  They divide the country into classes, will-they, nil-they.

[MilitantRadical 2,844]

^ Ah!  But you see, I am not a Liberal in the American sense.  I am an outside observer, and in general the lobbies of Congress have too damned much to say about how things go down there.  Your tripartite congressional system has reached Peter's Pretty Pass (See the Peter Principle by Laurence J. Peter).  You need a lateral arabesque to a previously prepared position, but you don't have that position.  Refer to Thomas Jefferson for what to do now.  (Revolution)!

The question is how to go about such a thing in view of the fact that you would be strongly opposed by the massive steamroller of the federal government which would squash your little movement flat very quickly.  Even if you could revitalize one of the moribund political parties (the TEA partiers tried that and you see what happened to them), the inertia is so great that you'd find America has a mind like a steel trap: rusted shut.

Up here with a Westminster Parliamentary model, we've just done what had to be done.  We chucked the Conservative government that had become oppressive after 10 years in and replaced them with not the official opposition but with the third place party who are not nearly so socialist as the NDP.  The Liberal Party of Canada got in because of strategic voting in which most of the electorate followed the dictum "anyone but conservative", didn't trust the track record of the New Democratic Party after a serious fiasco trying to rule Ontario (Canada's most populous province), and a lacklustre leader.  It was a landslide, by the way.  The Maritime Provinces went totally Liberal which is unusual for them since there is a major Conservative power base there.  We get a kick at the cat every five years or if the government loses a major money vote in the House of Commons.

Didn't even say you were a liberal and I'm Canadian too. Just pointing out how you were regurgitating the exact same vacuous platitudes as the Democrats when it comes to solving gun crime in America. It's all: "NRA durh and Republicans bad". It's it's predictable, it's hollow, and it's ineffective.

Switching from Conservative to Liberal is hardly an accomplishment. It's just the same old lettuce (an annual plant of the daisy family Asteraceae mostly grown as a leaf vegetable) tossed up a different way.

[LexusInfernus 908]

With terrorism it's different. Terrorism does not have a flag or even a face. Terrorists don't have a civilian population they care about protecting. Terrorists are not dissuaded by any of our military capabilities and have demonstrated a willingness to attack us directly at any chance they get. Meanwhile since they are not a country it is impossible for us to retaliate directly. With terrorism, it's not a fair fight and we are at a disadvantage.

Oh hardly. Terrorism didn't start with 9/11, 9/11 is simply the first time terrorism actually scared people. Before that terrorists were seen as criminals, murderers, who did gruesome things but overall were mostly an annoyance. People accurately perceived that terrorism was such a minor thing it was as pointless to worry about as it is to worry about a giant meteor striking earth and destroying all life on the planet. 

Its true, terrorism isn't a fair fight, but mostly its not a fair fight for the terrorists. Its why they pick soft targets, because they can't get to the hard targets. And even then they got all the odds stacked against them. A functioning police system will foil most terrorist plots. A functioning economy will in a lot of cases prevent people from wanting to be terrorists in the first place. And so will a political commitment to some idea of equality. 

Whats really been lost are those things. There is no political commitment to equality, indeed its the exact opposite. And the economy only serves a minority of people. Under these circumstances, terrorism thrives. The disadvantage is one that America has created for itself. 

Oh of course, there are groups like Al-Qaeda and IS, but there threat is vastly overstated. Al-Qaeda has managed one successful attack against the US in the past 15 years using foreign fighters and IS managed zero. They pose no direct threat. 

As for the story in question here, we have reached the point where mass shootings have almost become more statistics than news. A development which I actually encourage because I believe that, counterintuitively, it is for the better. The biggest reason mass shootings have become so popular is because how effective they are at getting attention. If everyone grows weary of them and stops caring, then a significant part of the motive to carry such crimes out goes away and their frequency will decline.

That supposes that the prime motive of mass shootings is media attention, and that is far from proven. In some cases, that may be true, but there are other cases with definitively different motives. And if this were true, why don't we see more copy cats outside the US? Mass murder on the American scale is unique to the United States while media attention for mass murderers is similar everywhere in the world. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Goodness, such cynicism!  After the years in the wilderness, I have some hopes that the Canadian Liberal government actually might be strong enough to do a clean sweep, which is certainly needed.  I watched the speech from the throne today, and as usual it was full of split infinitives, splat absurdities, and no real information.  Action starts on Monday next with the first real sitting of the House.  The agenda seemed rather full for such a short session which will only be a week to 10 days before they break for Christmas.