Unexplained Automata !!!

[Dreadnought 8,226]

HELP !!! 

I've been invaded by an entire flotilla of Mississippi River steamboats !!  They suddenly appeared from nowhere and they just keep steaming across the map, 12 at a time.  When they get across the map and disappear, they reappear from another direction.  They sail right through seawalls, land masses, power stations, etc.

I've been playing for about a year and I've never seen anything like this.  I must have downloaded something from one of the sites, but I've downloaded so much stuff in the last few days, how do I figure out what needs to go?

Has anybody else experienced this ?

PLEASE BELIEVE ME !!  This is not a joke!

[Mister Giggles 310]

First: Downloading lots of stuff at once makes it really hard to figure out what's causing the problem.

Second: The Air Force Base generates steam boats. I am not sure, and I have not tried it myself, but you may be able to disable this if you delete the prop the effect is seemingly attached to. This prop is instance 2AEE0FB3, and ILive's Reader allows you to do the work.

Paddle steamers are a fascinating look into the past, and it makes one wonder what Maxis was aiming for when they (kind of) introduced them into the game.

  Edited September 17, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[Linoa06 1,374]

First: Downloading lots of stuff at once makes it really hard to figure out what's causing the problem.

Second: The Air Force Base generates steam boats. I am not sure, and I have not tried it myself, but you may be able to disable this if you delete the prop the effect is seemingly attached to. This prop is instance 2AEE0FB3, and ILive's Reader allows you to do the work.

Paddle steamers are a fascinating look into the past, and it makes one wonder what Maxis was aiming for when they (kind of) introduced them into the game.

Years and years of using the air force base and I've never seen such a thing.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

First: Downloading lots of stuff at once makes it really hard to figure out what's causing the problem.

Second: The Air Force Base generates steam boats. I am not sure, and I have not tried it myself, but you may be able to disable this if you delete the prop the effect is seemingly attached to. This prop is instance 2AEE0FB3, and ILive's Reader allows you to do the work.

Paddle steamers are a fascinating look into the past, and it makes one wonder what Maxis was aiming for when they (kind of) introduced them into the game.

Yo, Mister Giggles --

Rather ironic that you should be the one to respond, because this ain't no laughing matter! (lol -- I think)

OK -- I've never tried this before, either, and I've not yet had my second cup of coffee this morning, so bear with me.  I'm trying to "reason" this out in my head -- a bit of deductive reasoning -- instead of anger and blind panic on my part.

1.  This is the Maxis Air Force Base referred to in the "business deals" -- right?  There is also an Air Force Base in PEG's Lakeside Resort Reward. 

2.  I should be able to use Window's file search to locate "2AEEOFB3" -- right? (Is that an "oh" or a "zero" in the file name?)

3.  Do we actually know what prop this is?  Knowing what it is might help narrow down the search. 

4.  How would I begin to use "READER" to do this.  I'm a novice at messing with files and I'm beginning to wish I had never downloaded all this stuff.

5.  It stands to reason -- that if the problem occurred yesterday -- then it must have been something I "pluggedin" yesterday, right?

6.  Does this problem occurr at any time -- or only when you physically plop something on the map you're working on?

7.  Another member suggested moving plugins outside the game until I removed the offending file by process of elimination.  A very sound idea -- I think.  AND -- I will start by moving all the stuff I "pluggedin" yesterday.

First: Downloading lots of stuff at once makes it really hard to figure out what's causing the problem.

Second: The Air Force Base generates steam boats. I am not sure, and I have not tried it myself, but you may be able to disable this if you delete the prop the effect is seemingly attached to. This prop is instance 2AEE0FB3, and ILive's Reader allows you to do the work.

Paddle steamers are a fascinating look into the past, and it makes one wonder what Maxis was aiming for when they (kind of) introduced them into the game.

Years and years of using the air force base and I've never seen such a thing.

Yo --

I agree. 

I've never seen this before, and I've played the vanilla version of the game -- off and on -- for years.

I'm formulating the theory that it's related to a recent plugin -- and a plugin I installed yesterday!

[Linoa06 1,374]

Proceeding by elimination is the best way to do it, as I would imagine it's from some of the stuff you installed yesterday. Just remove it all, see if it stops, then add files a small batch at a time until you can figure out what makes them come back.

If you got the Maxis Air Force DLC I would imagine checking that one first o.0

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

OK, now undo all those downloads.  To do that, sort your plugins by creation date, then take all the most recent ones to another folder and test your game.  If these boats no longer exist, then you have the problem isolated in your removed items.  You can then use your imagination and the binary search technique above (pinned) to find the problem in the recently downloaded stuff.

Shotgunning plugins is like playing Russian roulette.  You never know when the gun is loaded.  Each new download should be tested separately with all the rest of your plugins in a sandbox region before you commit it to your production regions.  If you find a bad one, you can either fix it or drop it.  In any case, report it.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

OK, now undo all those downloads.  To do that, sort your plugins by creation date, then take all the most recent ones to another folder and test your game.  If these boats no longer exist, then you have the problem isolated in your removed items.  You can then use your imagination and the binary search technique above (pinned) to find the problem in the recently downloaded stuff.

Shotgunning plugins is like playing Russian roulette.  You never know when the gun is loaded.  Each new download should be tested separately with all the rest of your plugins in a sandbox region before you commit it to your production regions.  If you find a bad one, you can either fix it or drop it.  In any case, report it.

Yo, Nonny --

Interestingly enough, while I was pondering the phenomenon, I created a quick test city in the same region.  Being a novice at this, I decided to take the analytical approach.  (Remember what Sherlock Homes said.)

I proceeded to plop everything in the new map that was plopped in the "infected" map.  I got a nice coking plant as a reward (I'd never seen that -- new download) -- but I was unable to attract the infamous steamboats. 

Conclusion:  It has nothing to do with what you placed on the map.  So -- it is, without doubt, what is NEW in the plugins folder. One possibility ruled out.

Question:  Why was I unable to trigger the bug?

Hypothesis:  It's a "bug" it does as it damned well pleases!

Yes -- it has been my experience that the gun is frequently "loaded", as you say.  I played the game for many months without risking a single custom download because I feared the one that would explode in my face.  After drooling over Debussyman's stuff for ages and ages -- I took the plunge -- but I still avoided lots with dependencies and Mods that changed stuff.  But I found that "playing it safe" confined you to the "vanilla zone" (Rod Serling knock-off).  So I decided to go for broke -- and here I sit with a smile on my face and a thumb up my arse, as they say.  What makes it worse, is that I have downloaded from sites in the US, UK, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Japan, and France.  Rarely are these sites in English -- but links lead you where they will -- and a download is where you find it.    

Yes -- I've been installing the new stuff and testing it in various maps in a "Test Region" set up for that purpose.  It's good for finding lots that are missing props and textures.  But a bug might not show up right away.  You might have to test it for long periods.  Plus -- it does what it pleases.  Also, you might not always test something you think is safe.

Yesterday I had a conflict between the JENX Eiffel Tower and the same version that came off a French site.  I went with the French one -- and that might be my mistake.  I'll check that.

I also downloaded a pack of train props from the French site -- another possible problem.

And -- I installed two rock Mods by Murmick without adequate testing.  I had a problem with one of his a few days ago -- maybe.  I'll check that.

None of the above would seem to have an obvious connection with the Air Force Base or steamboats -- but there's one good thing about it.  I made the last of my download/installs yesterday.  So, if I can solve this bug, it will be clear sailing for quite some time.

Enlighten me on this "binary search technique -- I have no idea about who, what, when, where, or especially -- HOW.

[Mister Giggles 310]

I, too, had not seen the steamboats until I plopped the Air Force Base in a bay. Nuking the base stopped the onslaught, although it's possible other lots use the same effect, for the lulz. So it could be a worst case scenario in which the entire city gets to be destroyed one piece at a time until the haunting stops. But we'll try to keep it from getting to that point.

The Reader. Install it, and open up the Air Force Base plugin with it. Click the "Fill The List" button, and you'll see a list o' items on the left. Among them, you'll see an "Instance" column. Click it once to organize everything in alphanumerical order, and go and find instance 2AEE0FB3. Right click on it, select "remove" and confirm. Save the file and you're done.

The binary method, developed by Nonny and approved by the Canadian Council of Overlord Mooses, is a patent pending way to find issues with your plugins.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

I, too, had not seen the steamboats until I plopped the Air Force Base in a bay. Nuking the base stopped the onslaught, although it's possible other lots use the same effect, for the lulz. So it could be a worst case scenario in which the entire city gets to be destroyed one piece at a time until the haunting stops. But we'll try to keep it from getting to that point.

The Reader. Install it, and open up the Air Force Base plugin with it. Click the "Fill The List" button, and you'll see a list o' items on the left. Among them, you'll see an "Instance" column. Click it once to organize everything in alphanumerical order, and go and find instance 2AEE0FB3. Right click on it, select "remove" and confirm. Save the file and you're done.

The binary method, developed by Nonny and approved by the Canadian Council of Overlord Mooses, is a patent pending way to find issues with your plugins.

Yo, guy --

Remember -- your talkin' to "Maxis 1.01", here.

Give me a "CLICK-PATH" to get to the Air Force Base Plugin.  I assume it is in the Maxis install folders -- but the "open this -- click on that" approach works better with me.

I'm and old geezer -- they were teaching "8-track tape deck technology" when I went to college! (lol)

 

P.S. --

The plugins folder on the Maxis disk in the hard drive is empty!-?  I used the READER to get into the files on the Maxis disk in the hard drive -- but I have no idea where to look for this file.  I've got several large folders(1-dat, 2-dat, etc) full of Exemplar files, S3D files, AVP files, ATC files, SC4Path files,etc, etc.  Am I in the right place to look for this bugger?

  Edited September 17, 2015 by Dreadnought  

[Mister Giggles 310]

The Air Force Base is a plugin, not part of the core data files for SC4. Search the Simcity 4 Deluxe program directory's plugins folder for Plugin_007_AirForceBase.dat. This is its default install location. If it's not there, check your plugins folder in My Documents. If not there, it could still be lurking somewhere but it's under a different name, or DatPacked with other things.

The binary method will be your best tool, at that point.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Yo, guy --

I think I'm going to eat some dinner -- and then go binary. 

It actually sounds a lot easier than trying to figure out where the Air Force Base is lurking.

If that fails -- I'm going to destroy the town and try again to see what happens!

[rsc204 21,805]

The air force base isn't lurking, it's in the SC DAT files inside your install directory. Honestly if that is a problem, it's almost certain a conflicting mod that brings it about and not a fault with the Maxis lot itself. Datanode would pinpoint the faulty file in such an instance pretty easily.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

The air force base isn't lurking, it's in the SC DAT files inside your install directory. Honestly if that is a problem, it's almost certain a conflicting mod that brings it about and not a fault with the Maxis lot itself. Datanode would pinpoint the faulty file in such an instance pretty easily.

Yo, guy --

I think I'll just go with your original suggestion to use the binary process of elimination.  It works for us folks that are "file-challenged"!~ (lol)

[catty-cb 4,381]

I've been using the official MAXIS release

https://community.simtropolis.com/clubs/26-city-builders-website/cbex/download?path=SC4%2Band%2BSC4D%2BDownloads%252Ftransportation.zip

for years with no noticeable problem re the steam boats ... yes I get them but its usually the odd one or two, the same thing for the steam trains that are also in this plugin, I've also got the Area 51 fix as you can't have both the airforce base and Area 51 in the same city without it.

-catty

[Dreadnought 8,226]

OK  -- !

My plugins folder is completely empty -- nothing but READER, EDITOR, etc, left in it.

And I still have steamboats  -- never less than 3, and sometimes as many as a dozen (the longer you let it run -- they multiply).  But -- it's only the one map that has the steamboat issue.  I've been playing for quite some time, and this is the first I've ever seen of steamboats.  I wonder if the steamboats and trains were hold-overs from a game that never got off the drawing board?  Someone just forgot to delete them, or thought it would be cute to have them pop-up, kinda' like the old llama gags they used to do.

This is a new region, and I have two test maps where I was getting a little practice using terrain brushes, height levels, some of the new downloads -- had to fix a few of them, especially the docks because they didn't always sit well on the terrain.

The map with the steamboats was going to be the first city of my new region.  So there is not much to lose.  Since the plugins folder is empty -- might cure my problem to simply obliterate the problem map and do a re-install on the main game.  My program might have become degraded with all this stuff going in and out all the time.  Or the new controller Mods just might be too much for my machine. 

OR -- it could just be that even though I've removed all the plugin stuff -- the steamboats won't leave until I obliterate the city.

I think it's time to go to THE NUCLEAR OPTION !!!

Ta --, guys  ----gotta go drop a bomb!

[Mister Giggles 310]

The Air Force Base plugin is contained in the program's plugins folder by default, not the My Documents folder. If you haven't cleaned the former out, you could still have plugins being loaded.

Unless effect generators, which is what's generating the steam boats, are saved in the city file and are immutable you are destroying your city for no reason. And, more importantly, you've doomed other cities to steam boat invasions unless you indentify the cause.

  Edited September 18, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Sometime in the last year, I loaded a set of effect generators for ships.  They are all confined to water areas, and are activated by placing any lot that contains a generator.  The usual lot that kicks them off is the Goldiva Yacht Club which I have had for at least 10 years.  I have never seen wandering steam boats on land.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

The Air Force Base plugin is contained in the program's plugins folder by default, not the My Documents folder. If you haven't cleaned the former out, you could still have plugins being loaded.

Unless effect generators, which is what's generating the steam boats, are saved in the city file and are immutable you are destroying your city for no reason. And, more importantly, you've doomed other cities to steam boat invasions unless you indentify the cause.

Yo, guy --

I have not been able to find the Air Force Base files -- anywhere! 

I realized I didn't have an Air Force Base in My Documents, so --

I've used READER to open the plugins folder on the DVD -- and it is empty. 

I opened the program files on the Hard drive , went to Maxis, went to Sc4 Deluxe, opened the plugins file -- and it is empty.

I don't know where else to look for the thing!!

As a first test, I was UNABLE to duplicate the steamboat effect in two other existing cities by plopping the last-made downloads in them.  It had to be these downloads that triggered the effect because the previous day's downloads had triggered nothing. 

I set up a third test city and duplicated exactly the objects plopped in the problem steamboat city.  I was unable to duplicate the steamboats in a city that was an exact twin.  

My fourth effort was to go "binary" and slowly remove the files in the My Documents plugins folder.  Eventually, I had removed everything -- EVERYTHING -- from the plugins folder -- and the steamboats were still steaming. 

S0 -- based on the evidence -- I decided to destroy the town.  There was nothing much in it to start with, thank the gods, so it was no big loss.  I figured that was the only remaining method to get rid of the steamboats.

Having gone that far -- I decided to do a complete uninstall / re-install on Sc4.  I am currently in the process of re-installing all of the plugins.  I am installing them in "control groups" along the binary guidelines, and testing to see if anything triggers a steamboat.  I'm not very far along, but so far, so good.

My reasoning -- is that (1) I had downloaded nearly 200 lots, Mods, Apps, and props in a two week period.  (2) I had installed water, tree, and terrain controller Mods on the day previous to the steamboat attack.  (3) I noticed that the terrain and water Mods seemed to be changing, slightly, every time I opened the map to test a new download.  They could have been adjusting to my system -- or it could have been the symptoms of a problem.  (4)  While testing new downloads and controller effects, I was switching back and forth between the new test region and old regions that were heavily built-up.  This might very well have confused the system by causing the controllers to adapt to massive amounts of objects and terrain in the old maps.  (5) Some of my plop filler lots (1x1 trees mostly) were becoming difficult to plop when they should have plopped like machine gun fire.  A sure indication that the system was not running smoothly.  (6) I had never -- ever -- in more than 3 years, managed to trigger a steamboat.  I didn't even know they existed.

Hypothesis:  There may never have been a problem, as such, with the Air Force Base.  The steamboat may have been caused by a severe case of stress on the system inflicted in a very short space of time.  System overload! 

I am not an expert on computers, but I believe that every software system is subject to degradation.  Every time you install a new picture viewer to Windows, you are degrading your operating system to some degree.  I DID NOT clean and defrag my system before installing all this stuff.  I DID cram it all in there and then switch back and forth between old and new maps.  I am running water, terrain, and tree controllers on Windows 2000 with only 2Gb of Ram.  If the steamboat problem persists, I may be forced to remove one or more of the controllers.  I may very well be pushing my system beyond its' limits.

I will finish re-installing my plugins material and testing it as I go.  My hope is that this problem was a stress-induced aberration and that I never see another steamboat.

But -- being that I'm mostly Irish -- I'll probably be back here in three hours whining with another problem. 

Ta, guys -- work to do.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The airforce base is not called "airforce base".  It is actually called the "transportation fix" and it is an executable called transportation.exe.  I don't know if it does anything else, but when you run it you get the airforce base as a plugin in your C:\Program Files ...\SimCity 4\Plugins.  Generally, I move it to my folder in my regular plugins called SimCity4\Plugins\EA Plugins where it is found with the name Plugin_007_AirForceBase.dat

I've had it since it was first published on the old SimCity 4 web site, and I've never had a moment's problem with it.

[catty-cb 4,381]

The Air Force Base plugin is contained in the program's plugins folder by default, not the My Documents folder. If you haven't cleaned the former out, you could still have plugins being loaded.

Unless effect generators, which is what's generating the steam boats, are saved in the city file and are immutable you are destroying your city for no reason. And, more importantly, you've doomed other cities to steam boat invasions unless you indentify the cause.

   

As a first test, I was UNABLE to duplicate the steamboat effect in two other existing cities by plopping the last-made downloads in them.  It had to be these downloads that triggered the effect  because the previous day's downloads had triggered nothing. 

My fourth effort was to go "binary" and slowly remove the files in the My Documents plugins folder.  Eventually, I had removed everything -- EVERYTHING -- from the plugins folder -- and the steamboats were still steaming.

Firstly it probable would help us to help you if you actually told us what these downloads were, secondly as "A Nonny Moose" says the MAXIS downloads have been available almost since the game came out if there was a problem with them it would have shown up by now, and thirdly you can have your plugins in three separate areas of your computer and the game will load and run them.

C:/My Documents/SimCity 4/Plugins/

C:/Program Files (x86)/Maxis/SimCity 4/Plugins/

C:/Program Files (x86)/Maxis/SimCity 4/Sku_Data/

or in the C:/Program Files/Maxis/... folder

There is actually five areas of your computer that the game will load data from

https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=10542.0

  Edited September 19, 2015 by catty-cb  
needed to add that it could be either in (x86) or ...

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Yo, Catty --

Thanks for the comment -- at least it tells me exactly where to look for the thing.  You wouldn't think so, but that's actually quite a lot of help.

I agree with you and Nonny --

1.  I've had the Air Force Base downloaded for several years and never had a problem with it.

2.  I used the binary method to empty the plugins folder -- and -- to re-load the plugins as well. 

If there was a problem download, it should have showed up somewhere during the "double binary" investigation.  I have not, so far, seen the evil steamboat.

Lacking evidence to the contrary -- I'm still working on the theory that my hypothesis is correct.

But -- I'll be making good use of your locator information if the steamboat shows up!

Thanx --

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Just as a matter of interest, old boy, what is the number of actual plugins files you have?

[Mister Giggles 310]

Edit: New information, new conclusion...

I spent some time experimenting, and this is what I found: The Air Force Base is a cause. It contains the effects information for the steam boats and they will appear absent other plugins... with a caveat. The vanilla plugin will not generate steam boats. I've tried, and been unable to reproduce the steam boat invasion with it.

If the plugin has been datpacked AND compressed, however, something is altered and steam boats start appearing, assuming you replace the lot and building exemplars with the originals since those are mangled during compression.

This is an incredibly roundabout way to induce the problem, and they're the exact steps I took at some point when consolidating my plugins suite. Most people would have never done what I did, therefore something else is calling the steam boat effects file.

The Visual effect name 0 and BuildingNoModelProperty properties are altered when the Effect_steamboat prop is compressed. Setting their properties to vanilla values seems to inhibit the steamboats for reasons (wut), but the mere process of saving the prop could be what's "correcting" it...

 

  Edited September 19, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[Dreadnought 8,226]

I spent some time experimenting, and this is what I found: The Air Force Base is, at minimum, a cause. It contains the effects information for the steam boats and they will appear absent other plugins... with a caveat. The vanilla plugin will not generate steam boats. I've tried, and been unable to reproduce the steam boat invasion with it.

If the plugin has been datpacked, however, something is altered and steam boats start appearing. Prior to today, I had not specifically checked vanilla plugin to datpacked plugin.

Yo, Mr. Giggles --

Now that you mention it -- I seem to remember getting it in a download from the Plex.  It was the Lakeside Resort and I think they said they threw in the Air Force Base as a bonus.  I never downloaded it from Maxis because they were gone before I started playing the game.  PEG must have done the dat pack.

Me thinks I will get READER out and look through Lake Resort before I start building again.  The steamboat zombies may only be in remission! (lol)

Just as a matter of interest, old boy, what is the number of actual plugins files you have?

Yo, Nonny --

My guess is that I have quite a few less than most of the players on this site.  I am, after all, just a beginner. (lol)

There are 5.12Gb, with 8,046 files, in 1,763 folders.

Not a helluva lot, but quite enough to manage -- especially when one of them may have a booby trap!

[Mister Giggles 310]

I altered my post to include updated information.

Edit: Yeah, 5 gigs of plugins is quite a bit more than most have...

  Edited September 19, 2015 by Mister Giggles  

[MushyMushy 3,617]

5 GB is actually considered a lot. Most players here probably average between 2 and 3. There are some with very ridiculous amounts like 8 GB, but most of them trimmed theirs down most likely. I have about 5.8 GB. My downloading has significantly dropped off since I've downloaded a lot of the stuff that I deem useful/good... most of what's left is stuff I probably wouldn't download due to its age or poor quality (those can go hand-in-hand sometimes, as a long time ago the modders had fewer tools and less experience at their disposal). It's also took me several years to get to that amount of downloads.

[catty-cb 4,381]

     ...I never downloaded it from Maxis because they were gone before I started playing the game.  PEG must have done the dat pack.....

All the files that were over on the Maxis site are over here

https://community.simtropolis.com/clubs/26-city-builders-website/cbex?folder=SC4%2Band%2BSC4D%2BDownloads

There are a few other sites that are hosting them as well, you need an account at CB to download any of them (except the manuals they are public downloads), if you do want any of them and don't want to set up account then call back at Christmas as I'm going to be switching the CBEX over to public downloads for Christmas Eve, Christmas Day and Boxing Day

-catty

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

8046 < 8192 = 2¹³.  My calculations show you should have to do at most 13 tests to find your problem.  Fyi I have 3787 files.  Now you could probably exclude the two NAM directories from this, and remember you have to do this on the non-datpacked plugins.

[Dreadnought 8,226]

Regarding plugins, in general:

Before I start to rebuild on this new region, I am going to go through my downloads and weed-out the ones that I know I will never use. 

I have downloaded stuff thinking it was "cool" --  and then never found a use for it.  It clutters up your plugins folder and really clutters up the in-game drop-down selection menus.  My transportation and parks menus are ridiculous.

TWO SPECIFIC QUESTIONS ALONG THOSE LINES:

(1)  I have developed a duplicate subway tunnel image in the transportation menu. (Nam 32 ??)

(2)  I have developed duplicate images for Giraffe's cattails, lupins, and ashes in the MMP flora menu. (This occurred after I installed Meadowshire Tree Controller).

Any ideas on how I cure this illness?

 

BTW -- I opened PEG's Lakeside Resort -- but could not find the "guilty" instance number in either of the folders.

  Edited September 20, 2015 by Dreadnought  
left something out

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Duplicate menus are generally caused by duplicates in the Plugins list which may have been included in some other title.  Try running Rivit's SC4Datanode program.