Malaysian Passenger Airliner Crashes In Ukraine

[Drack 614]

oh no not again

 

AvHerald

 

[Belfastsocrates 1,752]

Terribly sad

 

There is the possibility it was shot down. 

[ROFLyoshi 1,760]

No good. Although some reports are saying that it was possibly shot down by ground forces.

Either way, I wonder what this will do to the reputation of the company.

[Belfastsocrates 1,752]

An advisor to the Ukrainian interior minister, Anton Gerashenko, says the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 feet) when it was "hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher", in a post on his Facebook page, according to the Associated Press

 

 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Tough on Malaysia airlines (again!) but if that plane was shot down, there will be ructions starting with ICAO and heavens knows what the result will be.  There is too damned much ordinance along the Ukraine/Russia border manned by a real bunch of yahoos.

[Belfastsocrates 1,752]

Tough on Malaysia airlines (again!) but if that plane was shot down, there will be ructions starting with ICAO and heavens knows what the result will be.  There is too damned much ordinance along the Ukraine/Russia border manned by a real bunch of yahoos.

 

I'm starting to doubt it was the anti-Kiev rebels, I'm not sure their Russian provided military tech could have targeted a commercial airline travelling that high in the sky. It still is possible as a rebel group took to social media to celebrate the bringing down of a transport aircraft, which Kiev confirms was in the area. However, once news broke that it was a commercial airliner the posts were deleted.

 

Be interesting to see what US and NATO satellites pick up in regard to possible surface-to-air missile launches.

[Fatherted 129]

I think it's a rebel group saying "we brought down the evil oppresssor's aircraft" followed by "it was a civilian aircraft?".

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

CBC report.

 

Whoever is supplying ordinance to these so-called rebels is now guilty of a massive crime on the international level.  This is very much like the sinking of the Lusitania.  It is time for some over-authority to step in and mash that bunch once and for all.  How about it, Mr. Putin?

[Odainsaker 2,133]

We should also recall that 3 days ago on Monday, a Ukrainian military transport plane was reported shot down by a missile in the embattled east. Ukraine also claims a Russian plane shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet Wednesday evening.  In June, the rebels actually claimed a deadly shoot down of another Ukrainian military transport at Luhansk Airport.  Expect the denials and conspiracy theories now with this new escalation to be vociferous.
 
This nightmare tragedy is going to be right up there with Korean Air Lines Flight 007 and Iran Air Flight 655.

[unnamed 174]

What is it with Malaysian Airlines and crashing? The United Nations should really look into this. 

[Belfastsocrates 1,752]

What is it with Malaysian Airlines and crashing? The United Nations should really look into this. 

 

Not sure you can blame them for having a missile fired at the plane.....not exactly something they can prevent.

[unnamed 174]

 

What is it with Malaysian Airlines and crashing? The United Nations should really look into this. 

 

Not sure you can blame them for having a missile fired at the plane.....not exactly something they can prevent.

 

Sorry, I didn't think about that.

 

But considering that our species is an aggressive one. Future planes should be fitted with flares and lock on sensors.

[Nesral Sredna 62]

@flightradar24 

Singapore Airlines SQ351 (B777) and Air India AI113 (B787) were about 25 km from #MH17 when it disappeared. t.co/BVDMlqGOjG

 

Me: What were these crazy peeps doing flying over a warzone anyway?

[GMT 389]

first off, this is not an officially declared warzone. second, the airspace was never closed to civilian operation (unlike crimean airspace which is closed to civil aircraft).

and third, there's been thousands of civil flights over iraq and afghanistan in the last 10 years despite the war going on below, simply because even the regular surface to ground missile ops are almost only a matter of close-range, mainly shoulder-mounted rocket systems to attack starting/landing planes, helicopters and lowflying bombers, so there's a very very remote danger for civil aviation.

furthermore, both the FAA and ICAO issued a warning for the russian/ukrainian border, ironically the area this happened was outside the area warned about.

and on a sidenote, this airway is one of the main routes from europe to asia. there's probably over 100 flights daily on this route as it is the most economic. actually, even a friend of mine flew there just minutes before this incident.

 

an incident which now even US officials (Pentagon) say was definitely a take-down. There's active intelligence operations in the area for a long time now and they collected data showing that a missile system's radar was locked onto an aircraft at that time and also ir signatures suggesting a high altitude explosion at about the same time and possibly even a trackable missile trajectory.

[JanYpe 17]

Incredibly tragic event.

 

 

What is it with Malaysian Airlines and crashing? The United Nations should really look into this. 

 

Not sure you can blame them for having a missile fired at the plane.....not exactly something they can prevent.

 

 

I do think you can question the wisdom of routing planes over such an unstable area, though Malaysian Airlines isn't the only airline flying over/near that part of Ukraine. Reportedly the ICAO had declared the route safe, but as I understand it individual companies do have some discretion to avoid suspect areas.

[krbe 193]

As long as they are allowed to fly, they are also allowed NOT to fly. However, the Ukrainian route is the shortest linking North Western Europe with South East Asia. Not choosing that route means longer travel times, which means decreased appeal amongst the public, and higher fuel and crew costs (somewhat funnily, the top story in Norwegian newspaper VG right before the crash was reported was the story on Norwegian (the airline) transferring wet-leased aircraft to its Norwegian AOC in order to be allowed flying over Russian territory - instead of the current Ukrainian routing).

 

As for "war zones" - a modern war is not one between nation-states with all the latest tech, equipment and strategies. Wars are fought by rag-tag terrorist groups and rebel forces using hand-guns while hiding out in urban environments. Shooting an airliner out of the sky - 10 km up - requires sophisticated missile equipment and well-trained crews. Not even the best equipped terror group in the world at the time - al-Qaida - managed to kill an airliner in the mountains of Afghanistan. This is because the most they can hope for is MANPADS, locking on to heat signatures up to a few hundred metres away.

 

Hence, high-altitude commercial airline traffic has always been viewed as safe from terrorists. Not only is the current Iraq corridor the only one between the Gulf and Europe/North America - even after the ISIS takeover and the Islamic State capturing American military hardware it has not been moved eastwards towards Iran and Kurdistan; though only MEA overflies Syria through safe corridors these days as that country has some nasty surface-to-air weapons.

 

As well, there has been the belief that only Ukraine and Russia possessed the necessary missile systems to take out MH17, I believe it has been common to think that non of the parties (Ukraine, Russia or the rebels) would have any interest downing European or Asian aircraft. Even the first rebel statements went on saying that they had mistakenly downed the airliner, claiming they were aiming for a Ukrainian Antonov (note: this must be wrong - claiming they mistook a huge 900 kmh airliner with swept wings flying at 32' ft for a slow-moving turboprop with straight wings and a service ceiling of 24' ft. Not even the stupidest of operators would fail to notice those differences).

[jmsepe 2,038]

Mr. Putin will surely take advantage of this situation. 

[hym 358]

But considering that our species is an aggressive one. Future planes should be fitted with flares and lock on sensors.

 

I hate to break it to you, but that is nothing more than wasted money.  We would be spending obscene amounts of money to protect that 1 aircraft that would actually need such defenses.  Which may still seem like a good idea to some individuals until one realizes that modern weapon systems are designed to detect aircraft countermeasures and defeat them.  Modern military grade weapon systems can defeat countermeasures much more advanced than what the civilian sector would be able to acquire.  A modern surface-to-air missile would simply plow through any civilian efforts to stop it.

 

There is also the fun fact that most modern countermeasure defense systems will, if they detect defensive behavior from the target, enter an enhanced targeting mode that will actually give the weapon higher odds of a lethal strike.  A passenger airline that attempted to deploy flares against a modern SAM battery might as well hang a giant "KICK ME" sign from the tail wing.

[elavery 1,013]

Given that most of these Ukrainian rebels look like drunken thugs it would come as no surprise that they mistook a commercial airliner for a military plane. This could be a game changer in the Ukraine situation and allow the Kiev government to clean up the mess in the East with Western help.

[unnamed 174]

 

But considering that our species is an aggressive one. Future planes should be fitted with flares and lock on sensors.

 

I hate to break it to you, but that is nothing more than wasted money.  We would be spending obscene amounts of money to protect that 1 aircraft that would actually need such defenses.  Which may still seem like a good idea to some individuals until one realizes that modern weapon systems are designed to detect aircraft countermeasures and defeat them.  Modern military grade weapon systems can defeat countermeasures much more advanced than what the civilian sector would be able to acquire.  A modern surface-to-air missile would simply plow through any civilian efforts to stop it.

 

There is also the fun fact that most modern countermeasure defense systems will, if they detect defensive behavior from the target, enter an enhanced targeting mode that will actually give the weapon higher odds of a lethal strike.  A passenger airline that attempted to deploy flares against a modern SAM battery might as well hang a giant "KICK ME" sign from the tail wing.

 

Ok then, another idea, civilian aircraft stealth paint. I know the people would not see the difference from american airlines compared to JAL but it is safe. and all the planes would be obvious that it is a civilian aircraft, would they think that the military hired an airline company to build a stealth bomber? 

[Duke87 1,070]

Ok then, another idea, civilian aircraft stealth paint.

 

Would do diddly squat to thwart a heat seeking missile. All that does is make the plane more difficult to pick up on radar, which for civilian operations is generally a bad thing.

 

 

Besides, this plane was most likely shot down by mistake. If some group were actively attempting to shoot down commercial airliners it would absolutely be worth their while to take measures to avoid incident, but 1) that is not happening, and 2) even if it were, rerouting flights would be easier than outfitting civilian jets with military countermeasures.

 

The proper response to this incident is to figure out who did it and shoot back at them, not go nuts trying to harden planes against future similar incidents. That would basically be like saying "oh no, one person got shot, now everyone should walk around in public wearing kevlar vests".

[Yayie 311]

It was a sad day for us Malaysian

 

I don't want to pointing fingers on who did it but I'm want those responsible face the justice for what they've done.

[hym 358]

Ok then, another idea, civilian aircraft stealth paint. I know the people would not see the difference from american airlines compared to JAL but it is safe. and all the planes would be obvious that it is a civilian aircraft, would they think that the military hired an airline company to build a stealth bomber? 

 

Consider the following:

 

• Commercial aircraft have very high radar cross sections (RCS), virtually guaranteeing that they will be visible on even the most rudimentary radar system.
• Even with radar absorbing material, the shape and material composition of commercial aircraft effectively guarantee that a modern military system will be able to detect them.
• Military radar systems have RCS catalogs of virtually all commercial aircraft and most military aircraft.  This allows the radar system to quickly identify which aircraft should be considered a threat.  This is actually a benefit to commercial aircraft as military radar will usually ignore known commercial RCS matches.
• Military radar that cannot identify an object will usually try frequency shifting, as no radar absorbing material can hide every radar frequency.  If the radar still cannot identify the aircraft, it will often resort to an IFF challenge.  Civilian aircraft will not only fail a military IFF challenge, but military IFF systems can often trick civilian IFF systems into positively identifying themselves as civilian aircraft, along with the information necessary to ensure a successful kill if the military operator so desires.
• If the radar system has exhausted all its identification options can still cannot identify the aircraft, it will likely tag the aircraft as hostile.  If a strike is authorized and the missile is equipped with appropriate anti-defense measures, the missile will use those same techniques to identify its target and switch into its self-directed kill mode.  At this point, nothing short of an act of god would save the passenger aircraft from that missile.
• The Department of Homeland Security looked at the issue of protecting passenger aircraft against missile attacks after 9/11.  It intended to issue regulations that would change the airline industry to better protect aircraft against surface-to-air missiles and rockets.  The DHS eventually dropped the proposal after it concluded that there was simply no practical means to accomplish such a goal.  The capacity of modern military equipment to identify and destroy commercial aircraft were simply too advanced for what those same aircraft could be reasonably equipped to defend against.

[tonyr 926]

Let's just hope Russia had nothing to do with it. The thought is unsettling.

[Dilin 9]

Let's just hope Russia had nothing to do with it. The thought is unsettling.

 

Russian Supplied or stolen during an attack on a Ukrainian Base, which would probably require lots of military training some random joe wouldn't have. This AA System in particular is a Russian made BUK M1-2 Air Defense system.

No average Joe would know how to use this thing out of the box. Russia Today says that Ukraine should take responsilibty because it blew up in their airspace. The Black Box of the plane was found and secure and is currently en route to Moscow. I think a lot of separatists in Ukraine are about to disappear across a certain border.

[Fatherted 129]

Why on earth is it going to Moscow? If, according to Russia, it has nothing to do with them, and it didn't explode in their territory, and wasn't shot down by their natives...then what claim to they have on the black box? You either can ensure innocence and back out or accept some responsibility in some way and take part. Not both. How does Putin get away with this?

[GMT 389]

It wouldn't need no highly trained professional either to just activate this system and make it fire on something.

On the other hand, it is not said that it was "armed peasants", there's plenty military among the rebels, so it sounds logical that there might be someone, who knows at least knows which buttons to press to take down an aircraft with this system.

to work beyond the IFF, fill the gaps this system has, is up to professionals tho. I don't know which - if any - IFF system is installed on the BUK, but it might be anything from a simple "friend or everything else" to a highly sophisticated system actually interrogating transponder signals to verify the target status.

 

EDIT: and the blackbox is going to russia cuz separatists collected it and since they're pro russian, the hand it to them. nonetheless, enough worldwide officialls MUST be involved by international law / icao treaty. basically every nation/company involved in the construction and operation of the plane has a legal right to join the investigation into this - assumed - takedown... and I think even the countries suffering fatalities from an aircraft accident may be involved aswell.

[LexusInfernus 908]

I hate to break it to you, but that is nothing more than wasted money.  We would be spending obscene amounts of money to protect that 1 aircraft that would actually need such defenses.  Which may still seem like a good idea to some individuals until one realizes that modern weapon systems are designed to detect aircraft countermeasures and defeat them.  Modern military grade weapon systems can defeat countermeasures much more advanced than what the civilian sector would be able to acquire.  A modern surface-to-air missile would simply plow through any civilian efforts to stop it.

 

There is also the fun fact that most modern countermeasure defense systems will, if they detect defensive behavior from the target, enter an enhanced targeting mode that will actually give the weapon higher odds of a lethal strike.  A passenger airline that attempted to deploy flares against a modern SAM battery might as well hang a giant "KICK ME" sign from the tail wing.

 

Indeed. Besides, the weapon system that shot this plane down believed to be the BUK M2, has radar guided missiles. Flares and what not are useless as long as there is a radar lock. Basically the best way to protect an airplane against these kind of weapon systems is by not showing up on the radar. Which is pretty much financially impossible and besides mostly unnecessary. It rarely happens that commercial airplanes are shot down by anti air. 

 

But it is not entirely true that civil airplanes do not have affordable air defense systems built into them. The El Al (Israeli airline) has included a flare system in all its airplanes. And SAAB has also developed an infrared countermeasure system for civilian airplanes. The problem is that those systems are mostly designed to protect against rockets fired from MANPADS. They are useless against the kind of weapon used to shoot this plane down. 

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Rebels claim to have planes Black Boxes.

 

They say they'll send them to Moscow.  Now that move means lots of propaganda and masquerade, eh?  The facts may or may not be on those recorders.

 

Hot heads should never be allowed access to serious ordinance.  It seems that there is fault on both sides of this, but it is nevertheless a criminal act.  Punishment needs to be swift and sure.  There are too many "rebel" and "insurgent" causes around the world right now.  They all need a good swift kick in the ideology.

 

Later Edit: BBC Report.

 

Obama must have had access to U.S. military satellites to say this:

 

US President Barack Obama has said a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine brought down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

 

In the past, such an outrage would have led to serious actions by the protagonists.  I don't see the Netherlands launching an attack on eastern Ukraine, nor Malaysia either.

[RipRap 4,400]

In the midst of all of this conflict, no matter who's responsible, it might be the final nail in the coffin for Malaysia Airlines, a reputable company that suffered two accidents in less than a year and surpassed the most passengers killed in 1 year by 1 airline (surpassing JAL in 1985 that killed 520 people in that year). I could once again see the merger of Malaysia and Singapore Airlines (which was one company until the late sixties when SIA broke away.

It's quite ironic that it was only a day before the accident that Russia granted another Southeastern Asian Carrier (Philippine Airlines) to fly over its territory en route to Europe, which had meant that it would have flown that same route where MH17 was downed.

Prayers to the families.