Simplification of Games - The path chosen by EA

[DmainEvent 195]

Ok. So it's official. Our own Simcity-Esque game it is. We should set up project using some open source technologies. Well set up a code base using some open source project repository and go from there. We should start with only our assets. I have never developed a game before. I have only worked with higher level languages that run on top of virtual machines (C#, Java). I tend to not work with programs that are a little closer to the actual computer system (C++ or C, Function/Variable Pointers=yuck) But that is what we would need to make this thing work efficiently. We are going to need to make our own art work, and all that jazz. We should give ourselves a development timeline as well. This should be a fun project, and if nothing more, we should have something that we could put on our resumes. So lets recruit some decent C/C++ guys, some decent artists, some guys that know about multi-core system, and see what we can come up with. Obviously, Maxis isn't going to do this. Also, I will have to do this in my spare time, if we can make this and sell this that would be great too. But if some of you have ethical/political hangups with that then whatever, lets make it open source. But lets start to get this off the ground tomorrow, and lets not just talk about it. Lets do it!!!!!

[GMT 389]

Ok. So it's official. Our own Simcity-Esque game it is. We should set up project using some open source technologies. Well set up a code base using some open source project repository and go from there. We should start with only our assets. I have never developed a game before. I have only worked with higher level languages that run on top of virtual machines (C#, Java). I tend to not work with programs that are a little closer to the actual computer system (C++ or C, Function/Variable Pointers=yuck) But that is what we would need to make this thing work efficiently. We are going to need to make our own art work, and all that jazz. We should give ourselves a development timeline as well. This should be a fun project, and if nothing more, we should have something that we could put on our resumes. So lets recruit some decent C/C++ guys, some decent artists, some guys that know about multi-core system, and see what we can come up with. Obviously, Maxis isn't going to do this. Also, I will have to do this in my spare time, if we can make this and sell this that would be great too. But if some of you have ethical/political hangups with that then whatever, lets make it open source. But lets start to get this off the ground tomorrow, and lets not just talk about it. Lets do it!!!!!

and so the countdown to shut this project started to roll...

sorry to be so negative, but I've just seen too many fanbase-citybuilder-projects come and go...after all, there's a reason why it takes quite a bunch of professionals a few years to develop such a complex game, you know?

Just to give you an example of the amount of work you're looking at:

Back in the days, I was very deep into modding GTA:SA and the main script file of it which I still have at hand - I'm not talking about the narrative script, I refer to the actual coding - is 548.056 lines of code.

Or to give this weird number some dimension: 10.346 pages in ms office, calibri size 11, no spacing.

this is just the "brain" of the game, if you want. No graphics, no graphics engine, no user interfaces, no exe... you catch the drift.

and like I said, that's created by people that actually call this their profession, they do it all day long. And chances are, more than one person wrote the code.

Now I don't know what the real inner workings of sim city look like (non the less I'm curious which possibilities arise from fiddling with the code, but this is unfortunately illegal almost everywhere), but I recon it's similarily complex.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud every effort the community makes towards a decent (as in what the community wants) continuation to the city building genre and there's plenty of proof that community efforts have a realistic chance to exist and prevail (settlers 2 return to the roots and openttd are just 2 cases prominent to me), but I can't be explicit enough about the fact that the vast majority of serious approaches to the matter at hand failed very hard because people underestimated the actual workload.

And now go ahead and prove me wrong and present us an awesome fancreated city simulation game in due time

EDIT: and no, I don't speak code except for some basic html and bb acquired though foruming. I only succeeded because I knew where I had to dig

  Edited July 30, 2012 by GMT  

[Crazy_Ivan80 35]

The younger generation are part of the problem (not exclusively) as many (not all)don't have the patience and the will to learn to play more difficult games

patience is a skill that can be learned. If they didn't learn it, it's because someone wasn't willing to teach them.

It seems we're missing both these days.

we're going tits up.

But we can conviently blame the '68ers

[Urban Cartographer 601]

We need to find a small group of people willing to pool their skills into making a city simulator, preferably a group with experience making games for Linux.

[herob4u 34]

Hehe good luck with your project guys. I really doubt it's possible and it's not easy and straightforward as it seems. Chances are between 5-15 %

And don't count on modders to get a whole game running as they are not deeply responsible for coding and stuff. Nevertheless, if you guys grab the momentum, and a project is miraculously on the roll, don't hesitate to contact me for 3D Modeling ;D

[Hamish 1,370]

If you want to talk about making your own game, then please make a new topic in the City Building Games forum.

Otherwise, lets stick to the topic of this thread, which is;

Are EA simplifying games?

I think they are, which is a shame, but these days I don't have the time to sit down and play hours upon hours of sim city, so maybe a simplified game is needed.

However, if I had a choice between a simplified simcity and an in depth simcity, I would chose the in depth one.

[cirugo 1,889]

when it comes to SimCity 4 I think that there is a big misunderstanding about what made it too complex. People want to be able to build a city and watch it grow and not run out of money to be able to do it...it was not very intuitive at vanilla release how to do that. Once some cheats and mods were out then it became easy. That's really the only complexity that it had that was different from previous versions in my opinion.

[GMT 389]

when it comes to SimCity 4 I think that there is a big misunderstanding about what made it too complex. People want to be able to build a city and watch it grow and not run out of money to be able to do it...it was not very intuitive at vanilla release how to do that. Once some cheats and mods were out then it became easy. That's really the only complexity that it had that was different from previous versions in my opinion.

yep, reminds my of why I joined the simtropolis 9yrs ago: to get over the money problem.

[DmainEvent 195]

I see some people have soured on the idea already. I have not given up. Like I said, I actually write code for a living. Not the kind of code you need to really tune a game (C++ or C, or even assembly), but I have dabbled in those languages, and I would only need enough knowledge to know how to not leak memory all over the place (releasing stored memory is key-all of a sudden I can't think of the term for it, and it was used heavliy in my operating systems class). There has to be somebody else on here with some coding skills. What about that Moose guy? Also, we are going to need some people good at making 3d models. I guess that is where the Majority of the modding community would come in. We just need a solid stable code base, plus all of the art that We would need. 158,000 lines of code is not all that hard if you know what you are writing. And that really has no meaning to me. You could 158K lines of code, and none of it compiles, or it throws stack-overflow and null pointer exceptions (crashes) all the time. Where is that guy that was talking about that city simulator he created. We could use that as a code base, and take what we need and discard the rest.

From a 1000 foot perspective, here is what we will need in terms of a solid code base...

1) a reasonable, scalable simulation engine (unlike-glassbox which is apparently very un-scalable... Limits you to only about 250K sims in your city)

1a) I am thinking something that simulates based on what you can see-For instance, if you are in a neighborhood view (IE you are really close up to your sims) you should be able to see

the sausage getting made if you know what I mean. You can see trucks going to-and-Fro and people entering stores and products being made and sold or what the hell ever. However,

if you are at the region level, for the sake of your CPU, that kind of simulation should be abstracted and simplified so to speak to a more generalized view. IE only really traffic and

the growth of your city will be taken into account.

You could really use the CS concepts of Abstraction and Inheritance here to full effect. IE, Everything in our game NSimCity would be a child of class Atom. Sims are a child, buildings,

cars, street lights, streets, neighborhoods, districts, Cities, Metro-Regions, and Regions etc are children of this class. One of the properties of this class will be what is being simulated

and when (which will simply be a boolean flag, or could be an integer or small integer or a struct flag to allow for more gradiation of what is being simulated). I want millions of things to be

simulated at the same time. You can't do that though if you are simulating all the small things at the same time as well.

2) An engine that represents the above simulation graphically, so its not just a cmd line game . That would be where I would be kind of week. I never really focused on the graphical side of things. I mostly focus on Data Driven stuff.

3) Some way to make a map editor. Again, Not my fortay...

The maps are actually very important. You can think of the above simulation as a way of updating our maps. And the game player is essentially using various means to update his map. Whether its through a map editor, by adding zoning and streets or other forms of transportation etc... The simulation would then act on those changes and that would be the basic input response loop. There will be several types of maps obviously... Topographical, Water Table, Natural Resources (We could make a natural re-mineralization process similar to what happens in the real world), Weather etc. would be maps that are basically the starting point of your game world and obviously update and change based on user input. Maps like Health, Fire, and Police coverage, Real-Estate values etc would be in game maps that would depend on the population and the users style of gameplay etc.

The starting maps would be randomized at the start of your gaming session (Or you could use a map editor).

And like I said, all other maps would depend on play input and how your simulation is going.

That being said, we should have 3 different simulation "Philosophies". Libertarian, Mixed, Statist. I am actually a Libertarian at heart and I hate the idea of plopping clinics and libraries and schools and I think those things should sprout up on there own. But I understand the ideas behind other philosophies and I respect those that hold to them, so I suggest assuming that all those philosophies work in our game, and just let the user play the way he likes to.

So the Libertarian Philosophy would be just zoning areas for commercial, residential, Industrial, even parks and recreation with very little government based services like hospitals, libraries, and schools. Just Police and Firefighters. The "Statist" philosophy would be your plopper guy. Basically he will plop ever building, build his own schools, hospitals/clinics, industries that are mostly publicly owned. Think power plants, factories, high tech industries and research facilities. Large businesses would be largely publicly owned, and only small commercial, residential and mixed use properties would be private (apartment complexes and so forth would be public and largely plopped). And the "Mixed" philosophy would be basically Sim-City with Utilities, Recreation and Health-Care mostly publicly owned with everything else private. I guess we could have a sliding scale at the start of your game That basically lets you set your philosophy from total libertarian to Statist and everything in between. You would basically have the same building sets, just the restrictions on how everything is built plopping vs, zoning would be different. In all philosophies, Transportation routes are set by the user. Mass Transit could either be publicly or privately held. Service would be more spotty and pricey for the consumer if privately held(making your sims not as happy or likely to use it), But overall it would be more efficient. Publicly held mass transit would be less pricey and slightly more reliable, but really un-efficient and overcrowded. But all that can be designed at a later date. I kind of just spilled my entire simgaming philosophy into this tiny space. But we can do this guys. What are your thoughts?

[NCGAIO 562]

I see some people have soured on the idea already. I have not given up...

You can be sure we all would love that to be possible, unfortunately just not enough good will to make it come true. Out of a studio creation this would be impractical.

Want to get a basic idea of the simulation then visit the page of Micropolis

http://code.google.com/p/micropolis/

Returning to the subject

The point of Hamish with respect to time is an absolute truth, currently the most commercially successful games have interfaces designed to decrease learning and immediately put the beginner in the game environment while simplifying its use.

. . at the beginning-Designing User Interfaces to Simulation Games- Will Wright

But the reasons for simplification from the point of view ditribuidores are not based solely on offering something more fun for consumers ... they also want to obtain portability to provide this fun by the greatest possible time within their reach.

The Future of IMMOs in view of its suppliers is not only in sale the services they made available but also the value that your customers come to mean in the digital world such as the advertising eg.

The big question in the case of simulators will be to what extent this simplification keeps the interest of fans of this specific type of game. ? The concern for consumers in this case will be particularly linked to continuity of servers to access the game and not go through the unpleasant experience that many others have had if the title does not get the "1% of all online players peak in all EA's titles" - - - EA - Service Updates

  Edited July 31, 2012 by NCGAIO  

[2farnorth 26]

Out of topic, but doe's anyone suggesting there own city game know about the boomtown project? I'm sure that many people here could just scroll down the forums main page, and instead of clicking on the Simcity(2013) thread, click on the boomtown forum, and have a look there? Who knows? Maybe istead of clogging up threads like these, thinking about how to create your own project, just post any ideas in the boomtown forums, and help a promising looking sucsessor to sc4.

Back on topic EA are about to destroy the city building genre. You just can't simplify building a city. You can't force people to build their city in a certain way, in this case forcing us to build on tiny patches of land in the middle of nothingness. You can't force people to build their city's on top of a predetermined transport network, making what the player wants impossible. If anything, we want MORE advanced options, and the many mods on the STEX add more options.

No doubt, EA just want to make money. If next Febuary, critics tear apart the game EA won't care as long as their pockets are lined with money. Whether they achieve this by releasing DLC equivalent to a mod here for £2.99, or by attracting people who won't play the game for more than a week with stuff like the "Hero's and Villian's" set, and the ability to throw a meteor/ UFO/ monster at a (almost surely) included pre-built metropolis.

If the game is like this, EA will destroy the Simcity franchise, and the maxis name. All we can do is watch what happens now.

[Dijego 66]

so the verdict is in folks. EA doesn't care about the game or it's followers. it's all about the almighty dollar and SC5 is designed specifically to be mutli-player to force you to play with others. as much as i hate to say it, i'm not buying the game if the only thing thing EA wants to do is suck me in and then charge me ??? i would respond to that sentiment but it would be HEAVILY censored.

Let me emphasize HEAVILY censored, there is nothing more evil than creating hope and then smashing it with a sledgehammer called 'greed'. The worst part is that there are kids out there who will get the game and believe it is an actual good game and that the design decisions made were justified. It is like minecraft, it is fun, but it is far from what it should have been.

I hope they will prove me wrong, I honestly do.. Have been waiting for a next release for many years now. My SC4 plugin folder is currently a mess larger than the Mount Everest..

Regards,

Dijego

[nuyokcity 22]

Pre-Order and get the Bonus SimCity™ Heroes and Villains set!

Limited Edition Bonus Content

• New Characters - Protector of SimCity™ MaxisMan vs. The Evil Dr. Vu and his henchman.
  
• Crime Waves - The EvilDr. Vu is loose and will create havoc in your city. Normal police have their hands full against this Super Villain. The Evil Dr. Vu will solicit Sims to become his henchmen and carry out his dastardly deeds.
  
• Super Hero HQ - Place MaxisMan’s headquarters in your city to combat crime and keep your Sims safe. Upgrade with the Turbo Machine garage and The Reticulator landing pad.
  
• Evil Villain Lair - Place Dr. Vu’s Lair in your city to unleash a crime wave. As The Evil Dr. Vu commits more crimes, upgrade his lair with a special laboratory and a garage for the Evil VuMobile.
  

http://www.ea.com/sim-city

I dont know about you guys,but this game is sounding more and more like a Sims game rather than Simcity : (

I wonder how moddable Simcity 5 will be? These Sim hero characters sound like they could be modded into a Batman, Superman, etc. You could recreate Batman, Two Face and the Joker battling it out in Gotham. Or Neo from the Matrix battling a mass of Agent Smiffs. Better yet, in the spirit of the SimCity series classic monster and ufo disasters, maybe a Godzilla could be modded in? Godzilla & Friends - many enemies, many scenarios. King Kong and others. And what about Power Ranger and giant Japanese mecha robots? A mad scientist runs loose with his toy robot. Or create your own custom heros, heroines, villains, etc.

Lastly, I can't forget everyone's favorite muppet, Cookie Monster. After being spotted walking on Sesame Street in New York city and devouring entire food stores and bakeries, he grows bigger and bigger and starts to taste the city infrastructure itself. Watch out though, because after reaching a critical mass, even the army with its tanks and air support wouldn't be able to take him down, so you'd have to watch helpless as he stomped all over your city as he'd let out a huge roar. Perhaps he could only be placated by presenting him with a special giant cookie which would cost a lot of in-game money. That would be something, sort of like a Katamari game where he'd eat up everything and keep getting bigger.

"Cookie takes down Twin Towers but Empire State is saved by ultramega cookie bribe"

...Just trying to inject some humor into the let down that the new Simcity 5 reboot may be for some of us.

On topic - I've played a bunch of rts and city builder games and it seems almost every series has taken the social gaming route and/or simplified their games a lot in recent years. Command and Conquer, Age of Empires, Simcity, Settlers, Impressions Games/Tilted Mill city building series, etc. Some say it's the economy, changing demographic tastes, immature younger people, etc and it's probably a multitude of factors. Maybe someone can write an academic thesis on it? Hopefully Simcity 5 will at least have some modding options to counter any in-game limitations.

  Edited August 1, 2012 by nuyokcity  

[Urban Cartographer 601]

Pre-Order and get the Bonus SimCity™ Heroes and Villains set!

Limited Edition Bonus Content

• New Characters - Protector of SimCity™ MaxisMan vs. The Evil Dr. Vu and his henchman.
  
• Crime Waves - The EvilDr. Vu is loose and will create havoc in your city. Normal police have their hands full against this Super Villain. The Evil Dr. Vu will solicit Sims to become his henchmen and carry out his dastardly deeds.
  
• Super Hero HQ - Place MaxisMan’s headquarters in your city to combat crime and keep your Sims safe. Upgrade with the Turbo Machine garage and The Reticulator landing pad.
  
• Evil Villain Lair - Place Dr. Vu’s Lair in your city to unleash a crime wave. As The Evil Dr. Vu commits more crimes, upgrade his lair with a special laboratory and a garage for the Evil VuMobile.
  

http://www.ea.com/sim-city

I dont know about you guys,but this game is sounding more and more like a Sims game rather than Simcity : (

I wonder how moddable Simcity 5 will be? These Sim hero characters sound like they could be modded into a Batman, Superman, etc. You could recreate Batman, Two Face and the Joker battling it out in Gotham. Or Neo from the Matrix battling a mass of Agent Smiffs. Better yet, in the spirit of the SimCity series classic monster and ufo disasters, maybe a Godzilla could be modded in? Godzilla & Friends - many enemies, many scenarios. King Kong and others. And what about Power Ranger and giant Japanese mecha robots? A mad scientist runs loose with his toy robot. Or create your own custom heros, heroines, villains, etc.

Lastly, I can't forget everyone's favorite muppet, Cookie Monster. After being spotted walking on Sesame Street in New York city and devouring entire food stores and bakeries, he grows bigger and bigger and starts to taste the city infrastructure itself. Watch out though, because after reaching a critical mass, even the army with its tanks and air support wouldn't be able to take him down, so you'd have to watch helpless as he stomped all over your city as he'd let out a huge roar. Perhaps he could only be placated by presenting him with a special giant cookie which would cost a lot of in-game money. That would be something, sort of like a Katamari game where he'd eat up everything and keep getting bigger.

"Cookie takes down Twin Towers but Empire State is saved by ultramega cookie bribe"

...Just trying to inject some humor into the let down that the new Simcity 5 reboot may be for some of us.

On topic - I've played a bunch of rts and city builder games and it seems almost every series has taken the social gaming route and/or simplified their games a lot in recent years. Command and Conquer, Age of Empires, Simcity, Settlers, Impressions Games/Tilted Mill city building series, etc. Some say it's the economy, changing demographic tastes, immature younger people, etc and it's probably a multitude of factors. Maybe someone can write an academic thesis on it? Hopefully Simcity 5 will at least have some modding options to counter any in-game limitations.

I agree. The last time I checked, SimCity is not City of Heroes (in terms of its focus on superheroes and the fact that it is an MMO). Even the Civilization strategy game series took the social route. I hope that SimCity 5 can be modded so much that it improves on SC4 minus the limitations. By the way, Cookie Monster (not Al-Qaeda) disguised himself as airplanes and ate the Twin Towers on the eleventh day of the ninth month of 2011 (joke).

[CaptCity 4,893]

This topic has obviously reached it's peak....