The good, the bad and the ugly*.

[Han Solo 34]

At first this thread was going to be decidedly negative about the new game. There's just been so much I've heard about it that's really disappointing so I decided to also write about what I like about the game and see whether anyone else is in the same boat as me.

The Good

Glass Box looks really impressive. The idea of every citizen of my city being an individual who goes to and from work each day is real great.

Curvy Roads! NAM and RHW are great... they've made SC4 so much more fun for me but they're limited. The roads seen in the demo footage look tantalising. Just think how good your city will look as the jumble of odd angles and curves in the old part of town give way to the geometric grid system of the big city which in turn transitions into the almost organic suburban neighbourhoods with there cul-de-sac's and gentle curves.

The UI looks simple but powerful. I have a soft spot for the graphs and data views of SC4 but I have to admit that the data in the new game looks much more intuitive and integrated.

The Bad

Nine years old and still going. Mods and user created content has kept this game alive for many of us but I would be gob smacked if, in this age of micro transactions and DLC, EA/Maxis are as open to the modding community this time around.

[EDIT: The following isn't confirmed] No terraforming (according to this article - Kotaku). Best case scenario everywhere I'd want to build my city would already be available. You could pick from world map the most interesting terrain to build on but then there's the worst case scenario. What if the choice of terrain is limited or I have only the most basic of choices? I always create regions with a similar list of features to them. For instance, I always like to have a Manhattan style island in the middle of my river. If I can't terraform and there isn't a map that fits this description, then will I be forced to play a map that isn't my idea of the ideal city?

A lack of terraforimng also raises a question regarding one of the good points. It's been long assumed that any new Simcity would have curved roads. To me this has always made me think about Manhattan. How the roads at the southern most tip of the island aren't based on a grid. Something that I'd love to see accurately recreated in Simcity but if there's no New York map (or there is and it's as inaccurate as SC4's default version) and I can't make the map myself then I guess this dream may well be put on hold.

Origin and the always on internet connection. I'm one of those people who hold no desire to play the new Simcity online so why should I have to be always connected? What if my internet goes down for a week because of some hitch with my ISP? I understand the need to stamp out piracy but at the cost of the ability to play the game being down to my ISP... surely there are better methods than this?

The Ugly*

*Well not "ugly" but I didn't want to call the thread "The good, the bad and the things that are good but I would prefer a different style". I am of course talking about the graphics. I like them! I think the idea of a game that looks like you're playing with a giant living play set is great but for me, I just feel they wouldn't offer the right kind of experience. It's personal taste I know but when play SC4, I pretend controlling a real city, with real people living in it. Controlling a toy city just doesn't capture my imagination as much.

So there you have it. I'll stop myself short of saying I won't get the game but I will go as far as saying I won't be pre ordering. Does anyone else feel the same, that the game has some great tech and really interesting ideas but there are just some things that are close to deal breakers?

  Edited June 5, 2012 by Han Solo  

[Ocram's Razr 963]

I hope that some sort of mode for altering terrain will be possible. I certainly will not preorder or pay full price. It usually takes a few months until they offer a holiday special.

[jacksunny 741]

I wasn't aware that there was no terraforming, is there a reason why or did they just decide that it wasn't very important?

[Nevets13 27]

Hmm, for right now I'm going to believe this was a misunderstanding on the author's part. The only evidence we have at this point is a single sentence in one article. Terraforming is a must have in a true sim city game. The developers must know terraforming is an integral part of the fans sim city experience.

[Han Solo 34]

Hmm, for right now I'm going to believe this was a misunderstanding on the author's part. The only evidence we have at this point is a single sentence in one article. Terraforming is a must have in a true sim city game. The developers must know terraforming is an integral part of the fans sim city experience.

Good point, perhaps I should amend my original post to indicate that it isn't confirmed.

[fatbuster 44]

One of the glassbox videos did show terraforming already so I highly doubt that it won't be available.

[MINIggy03 227]

One of the glassbox videos did show terraforming already so I highly doubt that it won't be available.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. There's got to be a mix up, we've seen them demonstrate terraforming with resources and how resources impact the landscape(they put down oil and the land rose a little). After SC3000 and the crap they got for not including better terraforming options(including better in unlimited), and going all out with SC4, I'd be pretty surprised if terraforming was gone and goes back to pre-generated.

[MandelSoft 2,769]

OK, let me add this to the list:

• No confirmation about freeways or grade-seperated networks. This still remains a strong point of the NAM and one of the few things I actually like about CXL is how it handles grade-seperated networks as an integral part of the game (though they didn't offer "simple" bridge models for overpasses). The dragging does seem to look cool, but it raises some questions for me if we going up in the third dimension...
  
• Everything looks a bit over-saturated and undetailed. Bright red industry and unnatural green grass, no thanks. De-saturation would do miracles here to get a much more realistic looking scene.
  
• The region. It doesn't look like a coherent unity, but rather like a scattered collection of "cities" in empty grasslands connected with roads. This does feel more like the Cities XL planet than the SC4 region...
  
• Cartoonish disasters. Dinosaurs, really?
  

Still not conviced to buy this game...

Best,

Maarten

[Cockatoo 2,256]

]Cartoonish disasters. Dinosaurs, really?

Well, there was the big lizard in SC4. And then there was the UFO's in SC3K, and the monster and SC2k...

But as for the graphics themselves... so far I'm unimpressed. CXL had better, there's no question about it. But I'm sure they're still very much under development, Maxis has never let us down in this department before and I'm sure they've got no intention of doing so. However, like others have said, the colour palate could definitely be toned down a bit. Even SC3K wasn't that bright. I also hope there will be an on/off switch for the tilt shift effect... not sure if I'm totally sold on that.

[Wiimeiser 444]

Freeways are a must-ask. We don't want this to be another SCS or City Life

[SimCity4IE 202]

At the moment I guess we shouldn't look at the individual features as such, but more so at the the core.

I'm unimpressed. I want something that will make me say "wow!" after such an effort on the simulator.

I can see an uncanny resemblance in graphics... Doink

I mean... Look at the earlier images

  Edited June 5, 2012 by SimCity4IE  

[ManofManyCats 6]

Hold the bus. You know that it may take developers of the new game time to "get it right." For instance, "Rush Hour" came along well after SC4 was released.

[Han Solo 34]

I've just found this quote regarding mods in the new Simcity (it'd be so much clearer and quicker if it was just called Simcity 5!). The quote is from an IamA on reddit when some of the developers from Maxis answered questions.

"[Andrew] As we said in the talk yesterday, we're very much aware of and appreciative of our mod community. We don't have specific plans yet beyond general good intentions, and the fact that we're using similar tech to our previous games. Basically, stay tuned."

From a link posted by a reddit user.

"We're huge fans of our modding community," creative director Ocean Quigley told the audience. "We've designed all this stuff to be moddable."

"We know modding is hugely important to our community," Quigley noted. "We know the reason why people are still playing SimCity 4 ten years later is because the modding community has kept it alive. GlassBox is built to be moddable, but beyond that we haven't announced anything"

While coming short of announcing full mod support for SimCity, Maxis did add that "we're using the same package format The Sims and SimCity 4 used," showing Maxis' desire to make it easy for Sim fans to transition to GlassBox tools.

  Edited June 7, 2012 by Han Solo  

[jacksunny 741]

I would be very surprised if there were no highways, interchanges, etc. If there isn't, I imagine that they would release them in a later expansion pack.

[flpeLyyy 1]

Something bad, after scrolling here and there, watching videos and staring at pictures for a couple of minutes: Cities size.

The cities size they showed are not highway, regional trains and any mass transport friendly. I mean... That's so... unrealistic and small.

As many said, SC4 was not so realistic, had its share of unrealism and we could handle that easily 'cause it was, worst case, irrelevant. We could build fair highways that go here from there in a fair scale. But, well, 1 or 2 kilometer city with skyscrapers (!!!), I mean... a road is just fine.

Well, I'm just disappointed over the cities showed in pictures and videos (I mean... These are "close-to-the-final" result, right?), and it seems a big problem for me. So I just said that 'cause I highly agree to Maarten, with this:

• The region. It doesn't look like a coherent unity, but rather like a scattered collection of "cities" in empty grasslands connected with roads. This does feel more like the Cities XL planet than the SC4 region...
  

Blargh, I don't want to be another pain in the ass complainer, "EA is evil", "This game will suck", "Blah blah blah", but... I don't see how a whole community that got disappointed to SimCity Societies will be satisfied with SC2013, if they give us what they showed 'till now. Small skyscraper city with no spreads and poorly terraformed region - I'll play City Life or SCS instead! It's not pessimism, it's just what it comes to mind after thinking a lil' bit. I totally support the optimistic guys, but my impressions tell me that one year from now we'll be just saying "how this game was disappointing", "how it commercially failed", and blah blah blah.

Well, hope Our Lady of City Building Games look at our early disappointment and perform a miracle...

[Han Solo 34]

I would be very surprised if there were no highways, interchanges, etc. If there isn't, I imagine that they would release them in a later expansion pack.

I wouldn't mind too much if this happened as long as they didn't charge you for it. I don't want to be cynical but I can't help but think that this time around, mods not being supported from the get go is related to paid for DLC.

To keep some balance I'm trying to post something positive when I post another comment about something that's disappointed me about the news from E3. Here goes... if you can modify each building by adding parts (as seen in the video where a fire station and coal mill are built) then you should be able to have a more diverse looking city. Inner city police station that don't look like small town sheriffs offices, schools that look different to each other... that reflect where they are and the wealth of the surrounding populous. I want my cities to have stories, a history that can be seen in bricks, mortar, glass and steel. I want character.

[fatbuster 44]

I wouldn't mind too much if this happened as long as they didn't charge you for it. I don't want to be cynical but I can't help but think that this time around, mods not being supported from the get go is related to paid for DLC.

Well, beyond the lot editor and BAT plugin (which came out months after release), SC4 didn't really have any official modding tools. All the tools were actually created by the community (mainly from this site, if I remember). I wouldn't be surprised if this was still the case seeing how EA stood and still stands on this issue. Though hearing Maxis say how easily modifiable the new game is leads me to believe that even if somehow "official" tools aren't made, the community might be able to get around this problem in much the same way as last time, with possibly more control over the game than before.

To get back to the original post, I think that even with this E3 reveal, there's still a lot that we don't know about how the game is really going to work. At least not enough for me to pass judgment. I just wish someone from these forums attended their booth and would be able to give their impressions on what they saw and heard. I think it would help to hear something from the point of view of a SimCity fan.

[Mark Waybill 242]

I was optimistic regarding this game but not only because I might not be able to afford playing it that often, but also because of a point raised here, I am not so much now. The disconnected feel of the cities in that region shot made me think exactly what the above poster did. CXL. Unless those are just small cities, but even so there appeared to be no farming hinterland???

[LillySatou 117]

I think the bottom line is that we just don't know enough yet to justify a preorder. It's probably a combination of things they can't tell us yet, and things they don't feel comfortable talking about yet.

It was only very recently the art style began to develop. It's best not to dwell on the negative and just wait and see what they have to tell us. I'm keeping optimistic about it, despite the side effects of having a publisher like EA can have.

[Skyrunner27 23]

One of the glassbox videos did show terraforming already so I highly doubt that it won't be available.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. There's got to be a mix up, we've seen them demonstrate terraforming with resources and how resources impact the landscape(they put down oil and the land rose a little). After SC3000 and the crap they got for not including better terraforming options(including better in unlimited), and going all out with SC4, I'd be pretty surprised if terraforming was gone and goes back to pre-generated.

Well the problem is that the Glassbox videos were in debugged mode I hardly think that they would allow you to change how much coal and oil you have in your city.

[mk11232 105]

I think another ugly is the product-life cycle. Server-only saves and online-always requirement will pretty much ensure we won't be playing this in 10 years without some sort of subscription or massive in-game ads to pay for the ongoing server maintenance. I think the fact that EA and none of the developers will address the issue, even when the question directly put to them on their own forums, speaks volume on the issue.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

Well, I guess the city size problem is due to resource limitations. Why was city size limited in the first place (I'm talking about the entire SimCity franchise here)? Why couldn't you just expand in any direction? Because at the time the games were released, your average consumer PC couldn't have handled more.

IMO, the entire region concept in SimCity 4 was a clever workaround to overcome the dilemma: On the one hand, you could create regions of virtually any size, on the other hand your computer didn't break down because the region was divided into small individual maps, and you never played more than one of them at a time. All additional workload was restricted to some basic parameters and inputs/outputs.

The concept was not fully implemented, of course: No region-wide effect of stadiums, let alone airports! No pollution or other effect was carried over to the next map, either. This shows me that it was probably really a kind of compromise/workaround which may have evolved into a full solution eventually, but they probably didn't have the time (or maybe the engine?) to handle it - yet.

This probably had a deep impact on the game. In order to build a city on the available tiles, the overall scale was affected (lots were too small, curves too tight, most buildings (especially low-density commercial) had too small footprints, and many looked funny and unrealstic because their width/height proportions were off (think industrial).

It also affected gameplay because in order to get skyscrapers in a city, you had to lower population requirements.

How does all this relate to SC2013? Well, this is how:

In this respect, I think the move to 3D came too early. Now we have 3D graphics (and a simulation of each individual Sim), but I gues this drove hardware requirements so high that the region had to be split in smaller pieces yet again to remain playable.

This, in turn, leads to a comeback of all the problems mentioned above - and will not benefit the overall realism of resulting cities.

That's why I think that city size is, in fact, not a marginal aspect, but something that deeply influences the overall look and feel of a game, and even gameplay itself.