Discussion about City Tile Size

[CaptCity 4,907]

Um... This is getting way off the topic of the thread...

[macvirt 361]

Heh, perhaps. It is an interesting angle though. But alright, best kept maybe to a seperate topic. I do think though that the issue of small tile sizes (but also many other things people mention as issues, like regions and graphics and the black hole of moddability versus shop) are tied together as consequences of a visible shift in orientation and focus by both Maxis and EA. The programmative element in that may go too far off topic, but it does serve to show how the order of priorities and methods has changed and how thus we have arrived at those issues.

Either way, we're not at release yet. Maxis may still make a shift and suprise people pleasantly.

[BravoGreenONE 120]

Here is the deal short and simple. People expect the maps to be as big as sc4 or continuous as to appear 4x4. Whatever computer resources are left to run the simulations and graphics should be allocated as such. That may cut down on the current simulation, but so be it. Do we really need or want the minutiae when we are limited to the confines of a thimble?

[Essex 322]

Here is the deal short and simple. People expect the maps to be as big as sc4 or continuous as to appear 4x4. Whatever computer resources are left to run the simulations and graphics should be allocated as such. That may cut down on the current simulation, but so be it. Do we really need or want the minutiae when we are limited to the confines of a thimble?

Exactly, but you'd think that in 10 years the computing power has increased so much that it would be no problem to simulate a realistic city the size of large cities in SC4 better and more detailed. If you have to limit city sizes to mere tiny villages (no way they are medium SC4 size) you must've put the focus on something that's not to simulate a city, but rather the people living in it. It's closer to the Sims than to anything Simcity.

The more I see screenshots of "cities" in SC13 the more I scratch my head in what the beep Maxis was thinking.

[macvirt 361]

It's not a matter of computing power. It's a case of how much resources you have to expend on what sort of targets for the project, against what resources you have available. This is a topic where business focus trumps game design. I know, the resource management stuff and the marketing, all that aims to suggest a deep focus, but the game targets a much wider focus as opposed to deep: the volume of potential customers and which largest potentials of those can be reached how.

Some of us may not like it, but it is a logical continuation of the resources debate and the strategic objectives. That is visible in the visual focus, the visualisation means, but also in elements like the multi/online play reqs that are part of EA's requirements for the project.

Again, this is a question of whether this is the next SimCity, or a new SimCity. Every game is a product of the time it is made in.

[snwboardn 18]

Well since Maxis frequents these forums maybe they can shed light on if the smaller city size is a limitation of the glass box engine, or if it is all based on hardware. If it is based on hardware it may be something as simple as a text based .cfg file on max city size...

I have noticed in the videos that not all the city tiles were the same size, some were smaller and round and some were bigger and square. So can having a bigger city be something as easy as a performance slider?

[Steelsmasher 8]

Since this simcity shall be online, they want some kind of consistency so I doubt they would allow a performance slider even if they could.

That's the problem with online, performance must be limited by the weakest link regardless of your own computers performance.

[ArtemL 14]

I have noticed in the videos that not all the city tiles were the same size, some were smaller and round and some were bigger and square. So can having a bigger city be something as easy as a performance slider?

Smaller and round are tiles for great works like regional airports. Cities are big and square and they are all of the same size.

[VeritaScientia 150]

They are not going to increase the size of the tiles until there's an expansion pack and an increase in computing power. Why? Because an increase from 2x2 tiles to a 4x4 will be a more than exponential increase of the elements that are going to be simulated.

From what I've heard, software requirements are always slightly overstated, to make sure the computer's other processes can still run. EA is not going to change that if that is the standard practice.

Frankly, until people try this game for themselves, any negativity about the size of the city or the way the game is simulated is blatantly prejudicial.

[macvirt 361]

Computing power is not the issue, as pointed out elsewhere. But indeed, the expansion pack roadmap is directly connected to any feature changes or additions (as well as content, obviously).

And agreed, right now any information available is marketing information (with the notable exceptions of information on functions part of EA policies and directives for the studios it owns - which includes Maxis), that is absolutely no reliable basis on which to make any decision. It's much more healthy to wait until release, or even until more details become available on moddability restrictions and DLC options, and then to make a personal decision based on whether it does something for you as a player, or not. Taking in to account that we just can't make any comparisons between SC4 and SC2013. Both are products of their own time, both have a completely different and distinct focus for customer groups, and so forth.

It's not that long until March folks.

[tyscott12 5]

This isn't going to make me not play simcity. I am kind of mad about this though.

[kellydale2003 2,276]

When Simcity first came out... We really had nothing to complain about with the new engines and tile sizes... let alone region play!

This is Simcity evolution all over again, sure it will start out small... yet it would be satisfactory until we outgrow it.

I believe in future Simcity games beyond this next coming out we'll see larger tile sizes. Especially considering the large trends in computer upgrading! It's kind of like the television age.

Soon our floor T.V.'s will become irrelevant (which they pretty much are... *cough* macintosh, Windows 90's *cough*) and turn into these modern plasma T.V.'s we own today! Sure there will always be a higher technology (3D T.V.'s, Smart T.V.'s, Etc) to buy from as soon as you get to the next tier... but that's the beauty of it!

At this stage, I believe that Simcity 5 or whatever people call it is a bit too early for the large computer memory problem that restricts us from keeping the standard much more respected ABOVE the ... well... standard.

I'm in favour of Alex... always will be. But at the sametime I got to understand that not everyone comes from a millionaire family and that there's the 99% that DEFINITELY need to be accounted for.

It's only logical that a computer game is meant for the AVERAGE consumer.

So in the meanwhile... Enjoy their hardwork when it comes! (:

[Morbx 16]

If only the tiles were contiguous to each other.... If only....

[CaptCity 4,907]

Posts unrelated to the tile-size discussion have been removed, and as per site rules, comments directed at posters and not the topic have been and will continue to be edited or removed. We need to take care in posting things when responding to others' viewpoints and desires. Discussion is the ultimate goal here. Statements directed at others and their views will only lead to mis-direction at best. Thanks.

[StoNe220022 159]

...Whatever computer resources are left to run the simulations and graphics should be allocated as such. That may cut down on the current simulation, but so be it. Do we really need or want the minutiae when we are limited to the confines of a thimble?

...If you have to limit city sizes to mere tiny villages (no way they are medium SC4 size) you must've put the focus on something that's not to simulate a city, but rather the people living in it. It's closer to the Sims than to anything Simcity.

I said it then and I'll say it again, it's a design floor.

They produced an engine and built a game around it; as opposed to designing a game and building an engine for it. Quite possibly to for the use of Glassbox to be used in other Sim titles.

They have their glassbox engine, it does what it does…now they just need to keep tweaking it to get the best out of it.

[VeritaScientia 150]

No engine is designed with a "floor" like that.

Maxis did think about simulating from the Sim up, and showing how the Sims themselves, affect a city. Accusing them of not fleshing out where they wanted to go with SC13 is frankly, stupidly uninformed.

Many engines are designed before games, especially broadly-applicable games. I can conceivably see GlassBox being used to create a simulation of the human body. Computers don't care what the variables stand for, and with tweaking, GlassBox could be used to create a biological simulator.

The one thing people here still refuse to believe is the reason why the game is so limited, is because they're not going to overwhelm the average specs of the average computer. They're not aiming this game at the 30-something established SimCity fan who went out and spent five grand on a computer with maxed specs. They're aiming it at the teenagers, the same market they captivated with the first SimCity. I don't know how any more plain it can be stated.

[DmainEvent 195]

Why are you certain it is a design floor? Maybe the Glass box engine was designed in such a way that it is simply not scalable for larger maps? You heard them say having contiguous cities next to each other consumed large amounts of resource (in this case they were all up and running-and not dead). Well maybe the tile size is a design ceiling? If they could have larger tiles why wouldn't they? If they were planning on releasing an expansion pack with larger tile sizes than they would at least hint at it.

I still don't know why they just don't expand on simcity fours region play. Having Cities that are dead next to each other could be alleviated if, while in the region view, you set a 'focus' that would simulate one of your cities at a time. You could then choose to zoom in on that city and handle any problems that pop up. That is a simple way of doing it, I described a more complex way of doing it, and I don't feel like typing it all out again.

I feel like they just didn't invest the design time in making THE GAME fun. They came up with glassbox and just built the game around it, with little to no consideration on how it would affect the overall fun of the game. I don't know about you, But I like having larger tiles with the level of simulation complexity in simcity 4 (which I still contend was much more realistic than in Cities XL). I like the region concept they came up with. Put together several dead cities and only simulate traffic flow from said city when in 'focus' of another city (When I say focus, I mean that the simulation was running for the city in real time). If they only expanded on that concept, and developed other focus granularities and simulation levels then they we would have ourselves a real game hear. Imagine if say, they came up with two more intermediate 'focus' levels. So, in the region 'Focus' I would only simulate traffic and resource movement across the map. From the region view you would be able to choose a city and it would simulate (The two other 'focus' levels are all within the cities scope, so they would exchange info and simulate as well) in real time. At that level, you have your budget control, you can simulate the economy at a macro-scale. And I could go on and on. My point is, they could have designed glassbox to be scalable, and handle situations like this, where you could have massive cities. And then connected them in an online kind of way. That's what I was hoping they would do. But they didn't. And I believe there engine and their lack of foresight, funding, maybe both, is why we are getting a simcity with tiny maps and no contiguous cities.

[DmainEvent 195]

There in lies my contention that glassbox was poorly designed and or funded. It really shouldn't take a lot of resources if you SCALE the simulation so you don't use too many resources simulating something that is not even in use. If you could generalize what is happening, you could suspend the simulation and free up those resource to do something else. That is essentially what happens in region view. There are some things being simulated, but at that view, you are basically surveying your creation, so you don't really cares about widgets moving in and out of your warehouse. And you can apply that to different aspects of simulating a city. And if you do it right, it can be done seamlessly. My contention is that they should have kept this in mind from the start. Design the glassbox engine with Huge cities and your successful implementation of regions in mind and BUILD on that. Not just abandon it. That way, you could build a city as big and complex as you wanted (even a tiny city that only teenagers build apparently) and still spare resources. You don't need a max-spec monster rig to run a smartly scaled simulation. I think even a teenager can appreciate that.

[semo 14]

I get the impression that many here who play simcity do not also play The Sims. I've always liked both, so I think my perspective is a bit different. This new simcity seems like a blend between previous simcity titles and The Sims, and I'm excited about that aspect. It's like the best of both worlds. All of the sims will be actual simulation units, but I'll still be able to enjoy the macro city play (rather than zooming in to the household level). It's what I've always wished simcity was (I can understand why this is a reboot). So if smaller tiles are necessary to achieve this effect, I'm fine w/ that.

Also, I never knew that other simcity players spent so much time in region view. For those who do, I can understand why not having cities touching could bother them. Personally, region view was just a means to get into each city, and I spent only seconds in this view before each game session. So I may be the only one who doesn't care that cities won't be physically connected. At least that's my position before getting a chance to play.

But hopefully an expansion can bump up the tile size & allow for regions w/ physically connected cities. That way, more people can be happy.

[VeritaScientia 150]

If you "generalize" the simulation, you're basically back to the simulation style they used before, which isn't what they're going for.

They spend YEARS working on GlassBox, it was the ONLY project Maxis worked on since Spore came out.

Scalability isn't an issue with the software if it's designed smartly, and since everyone doing the coding at Maxis likely has a college degree, I'm pretty sure scalability isn't a problem. All GlassBox is is an engine, the engine can handle 2, 4, 16, 256 or 4,294,967,296 agents, the only issue is the performance specs of the hardware.

That leaves the question "well if the engine can handle billions of agents, why can't the game have enormous cities?" Because it's a game that is built to have a competition edge to it, like the real world. In order for the game to be accessible, they have to "underclock" the game, just like computer makers will "underclock" their hardware, software companies do it too. "Underclocking" is a simple concept, say you have a smartphone that has a 1GB processor, but at any one time, the phone's software is only allowed to use, say 85% of the processor's capability, this is done to make sure the computer doesn't crash.

I know some on here have bemoaned the new aspect of competition, but without competition, there would be no economy.

[StoNe220022 159]

Worst. Excuse. Ever --Jeff Albertson.

No engine is designed with a "floor" like that. I've noticed that people here have the grasp of a Somali 2-year old on hardware issues.

Maxis did think about simulating from the Sim up, and showing how the Sims themselves, affect a city. Accusing them of not fleshing out where they wanted to go with SC13 is frankly, stupidly uninformed.

Many engines are designed before games, especially broadly-applicable games. I can conceivably see GlassBox being used to create a simulation of the human body. Computers don't care what the variables stand for, and with tweaking, GlassBox could be used to create a biological simulator.

The one thing people here still refuse to believe is the reason why the game is so limited, is because they're not going to overwhelm the average specs of the average computer. They're not aiming this game at the 30-something established SimCity fan who went out and spent five grand on a computer with maxed specs. They're aiming it at the teenagers, the same market they captivated with the first SimCity. I don't know how any more plain it can be stated.

Read the example quoted...they identified a problem...they attempted a fix...the current engine constraints did not allow for it. Hence...if they followed a standard software development, they would have designed the game and when building the engine taken the design in to account. eg: the whole debacle about spaced out region bubbles.

...and if you are suggesting they didn't foresee the region scarce and smaller zone sizes as an issue at the time of development, then you've just exercised the point of a company driving a product without understanding their consumer needs. Any person on this website could have attended the first week of conceptual design and mentioned "but the tile sizes and city scaling will be something our users will complain about"

I'm pretty sure scalability isn't a problem. All GlassBox is is an engine, the engine can handle 2, 4, 16, 256 or 4,294,967,296 agents, the only issue is the performance specs of the hardware.

Hence...the game is built around the technology, not the design. They built an engine and capped the city sizes, agents based on the average hardware spec that the given engine would require (you accuse people of not understanding this but believe or not we actually get it!!!). What some people here are suggesting, is perhaps they could have tonned down the simulation, in order to make a city builder more adaptable for the fanbase i.e. map sizes, modding, regional editing

Before you comment on the differnce between a 30 year old SimCity fan and a 'casual gammer' being that fanbase; no...I don't believe SC2013 will be as apealling to The Sims players as it would the City simulation fan.

[StoNe220022 159]

Maybe the Glass box engine was designed in such a way that it is simply not scalable for larger maps? You heard them say having contiguous cities next to each other consumed large amounts of resource (in this case they were all up and running-and not dead). Well maybe the tile size is a design ceiling? If they could have larger tiles why wouldn't they? If they were planning on releasing an expansion pack with larger tile sizes than they would at least hint at it.

I absolutely agree with you. I smirk when I read people suggest bigger tile sizes coming in expansion packs for exactly that; the game would have larger sizes right now if it allowed for it.

I guess I'm just under the idea that surely...surely!!! someone from maxis foresaw this as an issue that would come up!!! They must of had a discussion about 'what from SC4 worked well...?' and sought to expand upon it.

[VeritaScientia 150]

Stone, you claim that Maxis would have expanded the tiles if that was possible, but in the future wouldn't do that. Why exactly do you think that?

[CaptCity 4,907]

I guess I'm just under the idea that surely...surely!!! someone from maxis foresaw this as an issue that would come up!!! They must of had a discussion about 'what from SC4 worked well...?' and sought to expand upon it.

...and if you are suggesting they didn't foresee the region scarce and smaller zone sizes as an issue at the time of development, then you've just exercised the point of a company driving a product without understanding their consumer needs. Any person on this website could have attended the first week of conceptual design and mentioned "but the tile sizes and city scaling will be something our users will complain about"

Perhaps tile-size was raised and considered, but possibly due to priority, budgetary, technology, or design decisions/concerns, it wasn't made a current focus of the new game because they weren't looking to continue what was all ready in existance, but start anew. Yes, some would say, "well, it should have been". Who's to say? Products are usually produced to attract the "most", not "specific", and decisions concerning profit/cost start from there. Also, businesses will usually want to focus on current capabilities, not so much on what can't be done or what will be done. Focusing on the former rather than the latter two will present a more positive picture. Focusing on tile-size (and other perceived limiting factors) could have been judged to possibly have a negative connotation. Other things can always be considered in the future based on present successes. Just a thought...

[StoNe220022 159]

Stone, you claim that Maxis would have expanded the tiles if that was possible, but in the future wouldn't do that. Why exactly do you think that?

I guess because to me it comes down to the foundations of the game. The Sims 1 and 2 are good examples, that when you build a game with certain logic and constraints, you may stumble accorss a way to expand upon the initial design down the track...but it can go horribly wrong and at a cost. In The Sims case, it was with bugs. For each pet, holiday, weather effect that came to the first two games...the bugs were soon to follow.

The Sims 3 is slightly different, as you may of heard the fans complaining about the gfx...Sims 2 went for realism (detailed textures), Sims 3 went cartoon (more PC friendly). Maxis said at the time it was a design decision as Sims 3 was ment to scale and be exandable, add new areas without breaking existing content which wasn't really considered when the original Sims came out.

In context of SimCity2013, I wonder if this is the very expansion, this is the very engine stretched to its peak. One thing about The Sims, you could add new gaming areas (universities, downtown, holiday islands) but in every case, you could never expand the playable areas or the original neighbourhood.

Sum it up...I personally don't believe larger map sizes are as simple as flicking a switch ("When PC's are better in 5 years, we'll flick this switch"), I think it'll be more than that...and I believe it's not in the original foundations of Glassbox.

Perhaps tile-size was raised and considered, but possibly due to priority, budgetary, technology, or design decisions/concerns, it wasn't made a current focus of the new game.

Bingo... "focus of the new game"

Going back to many of the comments made months ago about this new simulator just not feeling like a 'SimCity'

I remember when maxis were developing Simsville and I still have all of the movie files and screens ever released of that game, as I was following it like a hawk. Very similar, plop the land and buildings, watch the moval van drive up...Nancy and Bill Sim move in and you track them around the town getting jobs, going to the cinema etc... The more detail that was released of this game made me feel like it was the reincarnation upon the late Simsville game that got canned.

I just think it can be a bad idea to cross genres like this. If this game fails...will it have a prolong effect on the SimCity franchise? If they marketed this as a different Sim-type other than SimCity, would we all have less to criticise, or would the game not sell as well?

[VeritaScientia 150]

Stone, you claim that Maxis would have expanded the tiles if that was possible, but in the future wouldn't do that. Why exactly do you think that?

I guess because to me it comes down to the foundations of the game. The Sims 1 and 2 are good examples, that when you build a game with certain logic and constraints, you may stumble accorss a way to expand upon the initial design down the track...but it can go horribly wrong and at a cost. In The Sims case, it was with bugs. For each pet, holiday, weather effect that came to the first two games...the bugs were soon to follow.

The Sims 3 is slightly different, as you may of heard the fans complaining about the gfx...Sims 2 went for realism (detailed textures), Sims 3 went cartoon (more PC friendly). Maxis said at the time it was a design decision as Sims 3 was ment to scale and be exandable, add new areas without breaking existing content which wasn't really considered when the original Sims came out.

In context of SimCity2013, I wonder if this is the very expansion, this is the very engine stretched to its peak. One thing about The Sims, you could add new gaming areas (universities, downtown, holiday islands) but in every case, you could never expand the playable areas or the original neighbourhood.

Sum it up...I personally don't believe larger map sizes are as simple as flicking a switch ("When PC's are better in 5 years, we'll flick this switch"), I think it'll be more than that...and that's not in the original foundations of Glassbox.

Perhaps tile-size was raised and considered, but possibly due to priority, budgetary, technology, or design decisions/concerns, it wasn't made a current focus of the new game.

Bingo... "focus of the new game"

Going back to many of the comments made months ago about this new simulator just not feeling like a 'SimCity'

I remember when maxis were developing Simsville and I still have all of the movie files and screens ever released of that game, as I was following it like a hawk. Very similar, plop the land and buildings, watch the moval van drive up...Nancy and Bill Sim move in and you track them around the town getting jobs, going to the cinema etc... The more detail that was released of this game made me feel like it was the reincarnation upon the late Simsville game that got canned.

I just think it can be a bad idea to cross genres like this. If this game fails...will it have a prolong effect on the SimCity franchise? If they marketed this as a different Sim-type other than SimCity, would we all have less to criticise, or would the game not sell as well?

GlassBox expresses everything in a city in terms of an agent. How these agents move about determines how the city grows, moves, and feels. This engine's implementation in SimCity is not about following a Sim, or even a group of Sims around in their everyday life, though that is possible if that is what you choose to do.

As for the comparison of the Sims and Sims 2, the GlassBox engine has been built from the ground up to be expandable and moddable for future development. Remember, the Sims was a gamble. Nobody initially dreamed that the game would become the best-selling PC game in history. If I remember correctly, the game started as a modified form of architecture software.

What made the Sims so open-ended was that it was an agent-based simulator, good luck trying to play through The Sims twice and having the exact same gameplay. What a shock when the gameplay style of SimCity, Maxis's pride, joy, and flagship, became too tired, they turned to agent-based simulation to give it a more realistic simulation feel.

[CaptCity 4,907]

Folks, there needs to be a curbing of presenting supposition as fact. Until someone comes along who has actually been in the meetings or has first-hand knowledge of game-file development, we can only speculate and extrapolate, neither of which is fact regardless of what a person may "think" he or she "knows". Any poster may, within reason of course, present thoughts, opinions, or perspectives - that is, after all, what formulates discussion. There is no "wrong" or "right" as things stand, and that needs to be remembered.

[flyer2359 92]

The more and more I continue to look at these small 'city' tiles, the more it bothers me. My ability to build a city that I want will be extremely limited, that's for sure.

[The_City_Builder 299]

Don't know if this has been posted, but one of the testers managed to get 750,000 sims in a city.

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/9233456.page;jsessionid=D4254B8B2322043D26BB8525A00BA4F6

[DmainEvent 195]

Don't know if this has been posted, but one of the testers managed to get 750,000 sims in a city.

http://forum.ea.com/...6BB8525A00BA4F6

Nobody cares. 750K people in a parking lot is not a fun game to play.