Project Thread: The United Nations Building

[Cockatoo 2,256]

Despite being one of the more recognisable pieces of architecture in the world, as of 2010, the United Nations building is STILL not available in SC4 (bar one half-finished attempt from years and years ago that will probably never see the light of day.) I think it's time that this changed.

Let's have a look at the complex from above. This is the approximate area I intend the final lot to comprise of. I've done the measurements and I'm looking at an 18x10 mega lot. This is where the problem comes in.

No doubt, it'll be a huge project. I want to create it in the highest possibly quality that 3dsMax and modern BATing techniques can achieve, yet at the rate I work at, it could take years.

As it would be near impossible to export this complex in its entirety - the poly count would no doubt be through the roof - the final thing will have to be exported in pieces and then pieced back together as props in the LE. This means that all the buildings, pathways, fountains, gardens, parking-lots and other small details will most likely need to be made separately - much in the same way that the BSC did the WTC complex all those years ago. This in itself isn't an issue, but the workload would be HUGE for one person alone!

This got me thinking, I wonder if there would be any other BATers out there who would be interested in collaborating on this with me? Simply put, many hands make light work. I intend to make most of the major buildings myself, although I’m open to trading files and tweaking etc. This being said, if anyone is interested in making the fountain or the rows of flags at the front (which could be released separately) or even something as simple as a fence or a lamp post or even just a texture for a roof somewhere, it could really cut down the time needed to complete. The only requirement would be that everything is rendered in a Max2k edition with LtbL to maintain a consistent look, although if you use a different set-up, we can work around this.

Here are the very beginnings of the main buildings. I’ve put about a week of my BATing time into this so far.

I’m not asking anyone to commit to a long and tedious project, but if this thing is to get done within a reasonable time frame, I’d be exceptionally grateful to anyone who’d be willing to put in even a little time and help me make this mammoth of a BAT.

[SimFox 801]

WoW!

One may say - history in the making. Both in terms of content as well as in the proposed co-operative mode of production. I do volunteer help I can offer...

Couple of thought if I may...

First of all polycount wouldn't be all that big problem - at least there are numerous ways how such problem would it arise could be overcome - 64 bit version of Max, Proxies etc... However I'm pretty sure this couldn't be exported in one piece because single SC4Model is limited to 32 256x256pix FSH tiles per view/zoom. This will most definitely take more...

Making it in pieces... Well, one thing to keep in mind here is that you would still need to assemble the entire thing in the rendering machine even if you exporting everything bit by bit - otherwise you wouldn't be able achieve self shadows. One special thing for consideration would be grounds. How to make them? As a custom texture, or as thin prop.

I would also urge you to make the lot rectangular (and "fix" the buildings accordingly).

Speaking of the modeling itself. there are few things to consider right from get go. One is what sort of lighting would be used and where. It  matters cause it will determine what sort of model is to be built. It nightmaps type of lighting to be used than model could be just a hollow shell. One advantage of such method - much smaller policount and easy un-wrapping - the best way to fit and truly customize textures.

If on the other hand buildings (say like main tower) to be lit with interior lighting then the modeling process would be entirely different.

BTW what is your approace at the moment?

[Ke|is 3,333]

Hi Cockatoo.

Makes me happy your work, You are an incredible and your talent is amazing ! Really thanks for this proyect.

[gio10469 24]

 Wow this is quite an ambitious building to BAT but I know that it will be done with great quality. I wish you the best on this endeavor. 

[lucky7 73]

You leave me speechless....  

[vailo 13]

This looks like a very ambitious project... I can pitch in with whatever I can, probably with texturing some of the ground or making small props 

[Nuclear550 3]

I would love the UN building in my city.

[GuerrilaWarfare 39]

I speak for all New York City CJ'ers when i say, is there any way you can make the far east end of this building compatible to an underground road.

FDR Drive runs straight under The UN building.

[Sgt Pepper 864]

Well this will remind me of Rubrik's big Project Thread on the WTC. NYBT can help for reference photos and such. I'm glad you took this project up!

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

WOW!! looks great.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I don't know what exactly I could do, but I'd be willing to help on this.

I think the nature of this project is inline with the actual building, since it was designed collaboratively by an international committee of the top architects of the day.

Great project!!

[TheOlympics 546]

Waited so long for this

[SimCity4IE 202]

I could help, but my BATing skills still suck. I'm here if you need anything though  

[Evillions 552]

= I have nothing to show for this great project because its just too good.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

Wow, didn't expect this to crop up!

I'd be willing to help as well, not exactly sure how, but I'll see what I can do

[Cockatoo 2,256]

Wow, it's good to see there's already so much interest here.

Originally posted by: SimFox

First of all polycount wouldn't be all that big problem - at least there are numerous ways how such problem would it arise could be overcome - 64 bit version of Max, Proxies etc... However I'm pretty sure this couldn't be exported in one piece because single SC4Model is limited to 32 256x256pix FSH tiles per view/zoom. This will most definitely take more... quote>

I only have a 32-bit system, but I'm sure others here (including yourself) would have 64 bit. I guess it could be possible to outsource the actual exporting if need be. After all, thanks to your efforts, most of us use the same setups now.

Making it in pieces... Well, one thing to keep in mind here is that you would still need to assemble the entire thing in the rendering machine even if you exporting everything bit by bit - otherwise you wouldn't be able achieve self shadows. One special thing for consideration would be grounds. How to make them? As a custom texture, or as thin prop.quote>

Good point! Again, 64-bit may come in handy here. I think it would be best to at least try and export the five main buildings as a single piece. They all join together in some way and I think it's better to try and avoid overlapping LOD issues and issues with stuff not fitting together in the LE as much as possible for them. As for other, more isolated things, that shouldn't be so much of an issue. The image below is a scale (not resized in any way) zoom-five preview. I can do a test tonight to see weather or not the buildings (not the base) will 'fit' into a single model file.

As for the base itself, I’m open to discussion here. I think a combination of thin modelled props for slightly raised areas/ pathways and base/ overlay textures for flat surfaces and road markings would be the best option.

Speaking of the modeling itself. there are few things to consider right from get go. One is what sort of lighting would be used and where. It  matters cause it will determine what sort of model is to be built. It nightmaps type of lighting to be used than model could be just a hollow shell. One advantage of such method - much smaller policount and easy un-wrapping - the best way to fit and truly customize textures.quote>

At least for the tower, my approach is night-map based 'hollow' modelling. It is just an outer shell. For other sections, particularly the assembly hall, I think interior modelling and lighting could work fantastically.

---

Anyway, this is how I propose we make this thing:

Individual people modelling individual components. That's the basic idea. People indicate the areas they want to develop, post their progress in this thread, and when they complete their model, the Max file and textures are sent to someone who is in charge of fitting the pieces together in a single scene. This person will need to have a powerful system, probably 64-bit, and the latest version of Max. Still, consideration should be taken when it comes to polycounts! The sections will then be exported individually (we’ll work this out when we get there) and pieced back together as a mega-lot in the LE. Any base or overlays that need to be custom-made could be done at this point. And modding will come later.

Another point, I think we should figure this out now, is what we’re going to do about the front side of the lot, the side facing the river. As you can see, it’s not straight in terms of the grid and drops off directly into the river. I’m not too keen on seeing this section of sea-wall included on the complex. I think people have their own sea-walls that can be placed in-front of the lot in a re-creation. Would it be best to just square off the front side of the complex and maybe add in some gardens or something to make up the lost space on the left side? What do we think?

If you choose to make a section, and I stress that it doesn’t have to be anything HUGE – it could just be the satellite dish out the front, you need to make sure everybody knows what you’re doing. I’ve put together a fairly general reference sheet that should give you guys a decent mental picture of the complex. I’m sure there’s plans out there. If you see anything that you’d like to make, say so now. I’ve got the tower and the building in front of it. Cheers.

Click to download.

[SimFox 801]

Sorry, I really hate to be one who keep raining on all sorts of parades, but I strongly think that this isn't kind of job where "lots of hands make light work", but rather make a lot of mess.

Even assuming those hands would be more or less equal competence and similarly minded it would be a major task coordinating project. Otherwise you risk to find out (when all the models finally assembled, that nothing fits both in terms of size, proportions, materials, textures etc, etc

Suggestion that anyone should take as little as Sat Dish is calling for disaster. And so is having more that say 4-5 people working in this - It will end up taking LONGER than if someONE dedicated would do it. Any team work without discipline and deadlines (that would be virtually impossible to enforce here) is a doomed to just tons of frustration - been there.

In order to pull this out there has to be clear strategy not just whoever comes and does whatever.

And the first strategic decision should be to make rectangular lot. Making it "true to life" and slanted along the river side is pointless -it is only perceivable from the air and even than not too much - it isn't defining architectural feature by any means and will make integration into game grid hard.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

I agree.  I think people should be responsible for individual stages along a linear workflow.  Maybe it could go something like:

1. Building modeling - one person would do the buildings themselves
2. Other stuff modeling - one person could do all roofjunk, someone could do all landscaping, sculptures etc.
3. Material design  - this person would figure out initial settings for the materials, and what kinds of maps are needed
4. Texturing - one person could do all the roofs, someone could do all the marble, someone could do all of the landscaping, etc.  The material designer would have already made a "blueprint" for the materials, and the texturer would be filling in the blanks ("this needs a diffuse map and a glossiness map...")
5. Material and texture tweaker - this person would tweak everything to make it more cohesive
6. Nitelites - this person would do the nitelites
7. Exporter - this person would export everything, and would figure out if how and where to break things up into multiple .SC4Models

There would also need to be someone/a group who'd quantify the work that needs to be done, and how it could be broken down into smaller jobs.

[SimFox 801]

I agree with most points made by Jason. However I think that it is modeling that is safest to share among many different participants. Still I think it wouldn’t be prudent to have more than say 4 max 5 people doing it. And there isn’t really that much stuff to model

Here is mine suggestion how to proceed.
 

Model Sketch.
This is very important stage since everything “down the stream” depends on it. The point of this sketch is to clearly and “set in stone” define sizes of all buildings, as well as their relative position on the plot.

The level of detail here could vary every building has to be evaluated to see if there some clear “flowing” lines. If those are present they would also have to be marked on “sketches” in order to keep architectural composition. Otherwise just general proportions and size could suffice.

From what I can see Cockatoo had made a remarkable job massing the whole thing up. Of course it should be still examined in a closer look but it seems very promising.

Modeling technique and “practice”
I’ve been handling models made by quite a number of BATers and some very good once among them. Yet I have to say that practice when there are thousands and more of objects in the scene and most of them called Box#, or Line# etc and all that stuff is in one “default” layer is all too common. Such scenes are mess to deal with. And it would be pain on one or more places to sort it out in this project for whoever will have to do say materials and lighting… So it is of paramount importance to avoid such situation.

So some ground rules would have to be established. Otherwise project will suffer. And this could be a great opportunity for participants to learn “good housekeeping“.
 

Materials.

This is very important step and should really be done by one person – much of the materials could be used on more than one model anyway.
Basic textures as a subsection of the Material setup could be collective effort. And it shouldn’t be all that difficult. However some precise customization  it need would most probably be also done by one person.
 

Lighting.

I’d say it also should be in the hands of a single person.
 

Grounds.

This is where the most of discussion should take place as this is least known and tested area. Basic points are how to deal with day and night views. It is not as straight forward situation. One thing to consider are shadows. The point is that in-game and Bat shadows do not coincide. So if grounds are to be rendered with buildings than there is a risk of ugly Brocken shadows at the point where shadow would be leaving BATed grounds and go to game terrain. One way to deal with this would be to make them as textures. Yet textures have their own problem – there is no way to light up in any satisfactory fashion. At least I don’t know of any. Another would be to BAT grounds as thin props. These would be both possible to illuminate at night and to receive shadowing. Yet this same very property will become problem in Night view – the shadow would be “brawn” on top of lighting… There are some ways around this problem, but it is one topic where real discussion would be very important.

This part would require the most “modding” skill, I suppose.

[Cockatoo 2,256]

SF and Jason: you raise some good points. At first, I did want this to be more of an open project, I didn't really want to be delegating tasks or setting deadlines, but at the same time, I want to maintain quality and take steps to prevent the project from turning into a jumbled mess. Perhaps a more 'linear' approach, as in the one suggested by you guys would be for the best. Having said that, I still think distributing the modelling burden among us is the best way to go. Even though people may have slightly different styles, if we limit ourselves to four or five experienced BATers, consistency shouldn't be a problem so long as texturing and further steps down the track are done by only one or two people in set stages.

Would this work? I have made a sort of combination of what has already been suggested.

1. Model Sketch -

This is very important stage since everything "down the stream" depends on it. The point of this sketch is to clearly and "set in stone" define sizes of all buildings, as well as their relative position on the plot.

The level of detail here could vary every building has to be evaluated to see if there some clear "flowing" lines. If those are present they would also have to be marked on "sketches" in order to keep architectural composition. Otherwise just general proportions and size could suffice.quote>

I could be responsible for this step. Simfox could check if over before we move on to make sure I didn't screw up anything.

2. Model Building - We lay down guidelines for efficient modelling techniques (object naming, layers etc.) to make it easier for ourselves down the track. Individuals are given sections to model. Development is shown in this thread, and as like before, once completed the sections will be assembled in one scene to gradually replace the model sketch. To maintain a consistent feel, one person can do the flora, another can be responsible for all roof junk, another for all buildings and so on. The grounds will not be done at this step.

3. Materials - The completed model of the complex will be sent to the person responsible for materials. I agree that this should be done by one person, and perhaps a second to tweak settings etc (someone with in-depth knowledge of materials.)

4. Lighting - Pretty simple, someone sits down and does the night-lighting. I'd probably like to do this step, maybe with a bit of assistance making night-maps.

5. Grounds - What Simfox said.

This is where the most of discussion should take place as this is least known and tested area. Basic points are how to deal with day and night views. It is not as straight forward situation. One thing to consider are shadows. The point is that in-game and Bat shadows do not coincide. So if grounds are to be rendered with buildings than there is a risk of ugly Brocken shadows at the point where shadow would be leaving BATed grounds and go to game terrain. One way to deal with this would be to make them as textures. Yet textures have their own problem - there is no way to light up in any satisfactory fashion. At least I don't know of any. Another would be to BAT grounds as thin props. These would be both possible to illuminate at night and to receive shadowing. Yet this same very property will become problem in Night view - the shadow would be "brawn" on top of lighting... There are some ways around this problem, but it is one topic where real discussion would be very important.

This part would require the most "modding" skill, I suppose.quote>

6. Exporting - What Jason said. This stage is dependant on how we decided to do the grounds.

this person would export everything, and would figure out if how and where to break things up into multiple .SC4Modelsquote>

7. Lotting - Somebody reassembles it in the lot editor.

8. Modding - Somebody is responsible for tweaking values and getting the lot ready for the game.

9. Packaging and Release - Somebody writes a readme and gets it ready for release.

So long as everybody agrees, who is in for step two?

[SC4BOY 20]

I would make one suggestion. I am not a "lotter" only a "user" For large lots I'd suggest that you produce a "place holder" lot similar to the "Trade Center" lots.. The reason is to allow a functional reserve of the location as the city grows.. whether you do this as a "reward ladder" lot or just a plop this can be useful unless you plan on this being a pure landmark item .. even then it makes some sense.

[bixel 1,223]

heh - I'm surprised this hasn't been made

[T Wrecks 10,209]

If only it stood in Hong Kong...

[Cockatoo 2,256]

If only it stood in Hong Kong...quote>

Hmm... I'm sure if it did we would have done it years ago. Anyway... a small update on the model sketch. I've mapped a correctly scaled Google Earth aerial photo of the complex onto the ground plane, showing the exact area that the final lot will comprise of. During the process, I revised the lot size. We are now looking at 178.5m x 288.0m which is approximately 11 tiles (just over) by exactly 18 (lucky). You can also see the beginnings of the fountain.

[SimFox 801]

Once you're done with sketching I'd take couple of buildings of your hand for modeling.

[Cockatoo 2,256]

Thanks, that'd be fantastic Simfox. Hopefully I can get sketch done within a week or so. Depends on how much other stuff I have on.

Anyways, another update on the model sketch. Does anybody know exactly how many flagpoles are in that section at the front? I've approximated at about 80, but I can't seem to find a photo that allows me to count them all at once.

[TekindusT 3,809]

According to Wikipedia, there are 192 flagpoles plus the UN flag in alphabetical order.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Whenever you're ready, just assign me part of the building and I'll get to work on it.

[Travis 5 11]

First off, I am quite excited to see the UN HQ being recreated for the game- its been sorely lacking. I could end here with the usual "keep up the good work", but for once I think I can contribute.  

Now, of course, not in the BATting sense- heavens, no.   However, refrencing Cockatoo's post...

Originally posted by: Cockatoo-210893

7. Lotting - Somebody reassembles it in the lot editor.

8. Modding - Somebody is responsible for tweaking values and getting the lot ready for the game.

9. Packaging and Release - Somebody writes a readme and gets it ready for release.

quote>

This is somewhere where I do have some expertise- I think these last three steps I could handle.  Now, of course its not that easy (is it ever that easy? ). My job depends largely on what you guys- the BATters- decide upon. For example, the debate as to whether to split the buildings up, or render as a whole, and then the sub-debate as to render the grounds, or use textures- of course affects my part. I'll leave that decision up to the people that know what they're doing with it; I can work with it either way. Lotting the complex would be very fun, and if rendered as a whole that wouldn't be possible- but that's just my two cents.

On to step #8, we have much flexibility: we can make the standard LM plop, another one with jobs, or, (if you really want to get serious ) a mega-lot growable. In addition, this is one of those buildings that's just destined to be a reward lot- IMO, I advise that I should make one of those as well. 

And lastly, more of an afterthought considering the effort that will go into this project, from everyone involved- the packaging. Perhaps an installer version, and a zip version (to facilitate MAC users); and of course a nice readme.

Well, I know this is aways off yet- but in fact, if Cockatoo should desire, he can render the basic shape of the complex and I can put the modding framework into place right away. The only catch with this is that the scale can not deviate- as that determines the stats that PIM-X assigns it. Again, up to you guys. And of course, that's if you even require my help- but I'd be glad to put the final touches on this. What are your thoughts? 

 

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

I'm afraid my woefully inefficient modeling style would be too much of a burden for a large part of the complex, I'm not exactly great with obscure shapes either. I would love to help however I would be afraid to make anything larger than a 2x2 so my lack of experience wouldn't weigh down the scene.

I rack a disapren