Harishna's BATs

[SimFox 802]

I can't shake off the feeling that your Biblioteca is hugely oversized. Compare it with other in-game elements: buildings, cars etc... You should be careful with some of the custom content though. Particularly all sorts of props. People tend to hugely oversize them. So that bicycle there is really huge! So if you through away the bike, then all the rest is just incredibly tinny next to your building, And if the main mass is hard to judge then the relatable elements - like stairs doors windows etc are immediate giveaway.

So when you model you should use real life dimensions, perhaps apart from hight. That you can right away adjust with 1,33 scale, or scale ready model.

PS

Found it on Google Earth... well the "tower" should be about 16 m thick e.g. one SC4 tile thick.

Also that enclosed "garden" is suppose to be much larger and of very different proportions...

here are some size measurments/estimates:

[harishna 847]

Thanks for pointing that out SF, that was something that was bothering me,I think the stairs maybe over scaled (the number of steps) and the trees under scaled perhaps? I went back to reference pictures and calculated the scaled and is pretty close to RL, is not precise but close the main body according to my calculations should be close to L:44.5 W:16.5 H:27.5m I made mine L:42 W:18 and H:26.2. Which I know is not perfect but not entirely terrible. I did some more investigations so I merged the whole thing into a new scene where I had a box of the same dimensions and surprise, what I discovered is that my model was hugely over scaled, even if the components read the right number the dimensions were completely out of proportion. I guess my mistake come from the early days when I re-scaled the whole thing to match the sim-ruler believing that the units change to match the new scale of the building but what really happens is that the numbers are maintained even that they don't longer match the scene scale. I guess that is the same problem I have with 3ds-max now, and I haven't figure it out how to fix it...Anyways I made a "quick-fix" I just re-scaled the whole thing to match the box I made as reference...I will try exporting it and checking in game I will also try re-scaling the height to 133.

by the way after merging the model to the new scene the model looks all black in the perspective view (i didn't merged the camera handlers) 

I don't know I feel tempted to throw the whole thing to the rubbish bin and start all over in 3ds.max...

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

You aren't alone harishna, I have been working with some models I got from friends on other forums (models not for SC4 purposes). For buildings that should be no longer than 100m, they show up as some five and a half kilometers (not sure what unit they were using). Naturally I scale them down to fit, but they still retain the outrageous values.This is particularly annoying for things like UVW mapping (which I was able to circumvent by always applying the UVW to 2 or more objects at once).

Anyway, nice catch Simfox!

[SimFox 802]

I'm sort of sorry for actually bringing it up... I must confess I was moved by very selfish thoughts, as this is one of not too many models I was really looking forward of using myself. It tryly stands out (particularly given that it is your first foray into SC4 modeling) among it's peers... So when I saw it's size in game alarm bells really went up in my head!

This is one reason one must be careful with measurements and/or do game test eraly on. In case of this building it's unusual appearance hid all the scaling issues really well as long as one saw it on black background... So I saw and didn't notice... till now... So sorry again.

But to the problem at hand. This is not all that uncommon problem, that is why there is a very big rule in 3d world - NEVER EVER SCALE THINGS.

Problem is that scale is like another modifier added on TOP of your existing or non-existant modifier stack. It is always re-applied on top of any modification you make to the model. Say you had something and scaled it 200%, then later you want to extrude one face say 1 m. You do that and think you got yourself 1 m extrusion. In fact what happens is that after this extrusion has been made Max slaps same scaling on top - finally you got your self extrusion that would measure 2 m.

For this reason Scaling should only be applied to the ready model, if ever, and then to the sub-object level.

Another way to avoid it is to slap on the model7models XForm modifier and scale it's gizmo. This is totally reversible process. you wanna go back to what it was before scale - just through away your modifier. You can repair already "damaged" models by applying XForm Reset. this will whipe out all scaling infor and reset current size to 100%, so that any miodification after that point will not be affected by scaling.

And then there is third method - perhaps the best when you want to get you things to the precise size, rather than abstract percentages. Slap on your model FFD modifier and than move relevant points to your heart content. Use some simple box made to the desired size as you snapping anchor.

In the question of what to do with current library... well I would be so bold to suggest to actually re-model it in Max. It would be all so much better! Ad I don't think it would take you too ling time. Once you got all your sized down, and I believe in this case made all the textures - all that data is fully "recyclable" in max. I think you'll get in the end much better model than if you try to either import something from GMAX into Max, or fix current one in GMAX.

[harishna 847]

Simfox: Again I think you are right, or at least we reached the same conclusion as I started modeling the library in 3ds-max yesterday, I mean it cannot be worse right? Now should be more straight forward and hopefully I would end with a "cleaner" model. Just one thing I am not sure, is that in my gmax version I made the inner garden a bit smaller than in RL as I thought it was taking too much space for nothing (I mean thinking on the game, not in real life of course), but I am considering sticking closer to reality this time, what you think? And another thing in my previous version I "exaggerated" the dimensions of the stair (number of steps and size of each step) to make it more distinguishable in game, should I stick to RL proportions this time?

[Jasoncw 11,841]

It looks like the final lot will be a 4x5 or a 5x5 if you do it accurately. I think that's a perfectly acceptable lot size. If you make the building a little smaller you could fit it on a 4x4, but I don't think you need to.

I did a quick search of the building and the campus when you first started the project, and I did another quick search of it now (unfortunately though, Bing doesn't have bird's eye view for Mexico City) and I'm reminded of how nice of a campus it is. When you do these BATs and especially their lotting I would think about how they could fit together to recreate the campus as a whole (or however much of it you plan on doing).

3ds Max can render smaller details like steps better than gmax can, so I would try to model them closer to what they really are.

I can't tell, but is there another courtyard in the back of the building?

I thought it was looking big too, but I figured the real building just had a tall ground floor, since the tower is reasonably sized. I'm glad to see you're redoing it and I'm excited to see the new version!

[harishna 847]

Ok, I haven't quit on the library, but rather started from scratch on 3dsMax, this time I am trying to stick as close as possible to the RL model. I am close to finishing modeling the ground floor, any comments welcome. Notice that I left open a couple of windows and modeled the grid of the tiles I don't know if these details are unnecessary.

 

[SimFox 802]

cool!

I'm not sure why do you really do that much of an interior, though... It wouldn't bee see, and I'd say it shouldn't be seen. There is no way to make something realistic via modeling and real light distribution in either day or night views. So you'll be much better off by actaully faking it...

One more thing - never ever use anything pure black! In 3D black means total light absorption - look at the black wall around the garden - you can't see which side is sunny and which is shaded. It is highly unrealistic. Even blackest of things in real world (well black holes apart) reflect some amount of light.

[harishna 847]

Thanks SimFox the colors are not textures and I am just using them as reference.

I got a question, if I want to stay as close as possible to reality I am facing a challenge, In the north side of the building the basement floor is visible, while it remains completely invisible from the south side obviously there is a slope, so my options are either trying to make it a close as possible to the real one by modeling this basement and model the lot adding some stairs and/or slopes to make it fit the game, or simply leave it as it is, as in my previous version, with no basement visible but this means that I will have to re-scale some parts of the building like the front fountain. What you gurus recommend?

South side view: 

North side view

[harishna 847]

technical question: is possible to have one render version of the building with the windows open during the day and another one of building with the windows closed for the night view? I am not talking about times of the day here.

[SimFox 802]

Yep it is possible as long as Day version's open windows will not stick out past the night view outline. If they will then those extruding bits will show up in night view as well...

[gutterclub 2,729]

As far as I am aware you can do this, as long as the LOD's are the same as seperate FSH's for night and day are inserted into the model. I'm sure some tru night models have open and closed garage doors etc?

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

gutterclub, yep. Seeing how the dark  true night method is a different scene entirely, you can do whatever you damn well please with the model (provided you stick with the same LOD coverage).

[SimFox 802]

I have to step in and correct this LOD misconception.

First of all LODs are ALWAYS same for day and night views, as LODs form s3D 3d structure of the SC4Model file.

Second LODs could contain a lot of transparent space. So KEY thing here is a silhouette of the day view. It can't extend past the silhouette of the night view, because truNite works by overlaying entire day view with a night one.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

"Silhouette", yes, that was the word I was looking for. Gives a much better impression of the kinds of boundary one works within.

[harishna 847]

Thanks! well then I guess then I cannot make windows that open in an angle...but it is very useful info!

[SimFox 802]

nope, you're guessing wrong.

You CAN do it. There are few potentially problematic spots you take into account while you do it. Hope following picture illustrates this "silhouette principle" well enough:

game creates night view by pulling color overlay over the day view. on Top of this tinted day view it places "night" views which are normally just bits and pieces - night windows, areas directly lit by nitelites etc. In truNite the entire night render is masked and brought into the game. In case when both day and night view have same outline (aka silhouette) night view covers day one (which is still there) entirely. So you can close windows, and just any other kind differences. But if night view outline will not cover exactly same , or greater area than does day one the day tinted view will poke from behind the truNnight one

[harishna 847]

ahh crystal!

[Jasoncw 11,841]

About the slope, it's a difficult decision to make.

If the back isn't very important, you can just ignore it and you can model the building purely based on the front of the building.

Like you said you could also BAT the front plaza except you could elevate it.  It seems like you're already BATing the ground around the building anyway.  The area around the plaza already has steps, so this wouldn't be a big change to the design.  For yours though, the red plaza would be higher than all of the surrounding ground.  Maybe you could extend the plaza a little more south (but you would probably want to change the material from red, to maybe grey concrete), and then you could have some more stairs along the courtyard's southern wall, like there is in real life.  If you do this it would be easy to include the planter on the south west corner of the plaza, which I think is an important part of the design.  I think this is my favorite option.

Or you could model the building as it is, except you would model the back of the building as a below ground courtyard.  This way the original building itself would be accurate (you would be able to model both elevations accurately), and the front would be accurate, but obviously a courtyard would be a big change to the design, even though it would be compatible.

[harishna 847]

So I went for something intermediate taking the north side level as reference and adjusting the rest to this so the east side would be cut a little bit and I had to add stairs to the south side to make it to level, this is a draft of what I got, most of the model remains untextured and I just applied some to the floors to check how they look. Comments welcome.

[SimFox 802]

Looking great!!

I think game is in a great need of plazas! Most players trying to stuff the city with building as "dense" as possible, believing it pt be urban. When in fact it isn't. So building like this would be very useful to thin that madness out.

Well another option would be to make the plaza sunken... I think it would be an interesting cultural reference to the meso-american pre-columbian architecture...

I would also go a bit lighter on color saturation for the roof and the plaza, but the later, I'm sure, is wip..Also with dirt and stains. I think it is somewhat wrong practice to always use darker/black for those. The dirt is normally not black really, I mean not since the days of steam engines and coal heated homes... So I believe it is on more gray shade. so in case of really dark roofs it should be, actually lighter than the roof. Well that could be some darker spots too, but there should be lighter ones for sure. And since roof is so dark now I think it needs those.

[harishna 847]

Thanks Simfox. Actually this kind of roofing consist of a layer of some kind of "waterproof paint" that has to be constantly renovated, this is very common practice in Mexico, so the roofs are usually quite smooth unless people forget to apply a new layer to it, or don't have the money to do it as often as required. What happens in such cases is that this "plastic" layer starts to wear off and the actual roof becomes visible leaving darker spots behind. As you can see in the reference picture from Google Earth, were you kindly point out my mistakes with the dimensions of my previous version, the actual building roof surface looks quite smooth but if you look to the covered walkway that hasn't been maintained, you will see it looks darker, that was a little bit my intention with the building as to make the roof look less boring for the game but I might be wrong? What I would try to do is play with the saturation to archive a lighter tone and maybe go for something more pinkish. For the plaza I was thinking on using the red bricks but in a square pattern either bordered with rocks or concrete. For the plaza I was trying to make it as closest to the real one as possible were it goes from a low to high level in a east to west direction. To make it more game friendly I decided to do something intermediate using the north as reference point for the elevation as a result the east side is less sunken and the south plaza is elevated. But I am open to suggestions here.

[zahrul3 472]

Both of them look great. I wouldn't mind you making recreations corner by corner but now you know a lot of things. About the dimensions, you should use Google Earth so you know the dimensions beforehand so it would be easier to BAT. You could just model buildings based on imagination(like some NDEX buildings) as long it is architecturally correct. You could just modulate details from the library as they are practically identical.

[Bastet69008 1,102]

Much better love it!

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

Looks great harishna, soon one day it will be on my computer in one of my cities.

[harishna 847]

Bastet69008: Thanks!

Aaron Graham: Thanks, hope that day is soon

zahrul3: I don't quite understand what you mean by: "You could just model buildings based on imagination(like some NDEX buildings) as long it is architecturally correct. You could just modulate details from the library as they are practically identical". I am trying to recreate a building from RL what I am adjusting is the LOT and some aspect of the building, this is because the real building is sitting on a slope, so I have to adapt this to the game. I also quite not follow your comment on the dimensions, you talking about the building dimensions, if you follow my thread you would see this topic was previously addressed by SimFox. This a completely new version that I started in MAX, so now the building should be properly scaled to RL or at least close enough I think, or have you spot a problem? I would rather know now that later, cheers!

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

zahrul3: you are contradicting yourself in that comment. On one hand, you uphold accuracy and reliance with what is there in reality (google earth measurements), and in the other you say just to approximate and make things up as you go. They are not doctrines that can be used interchangeably on one project, so even I am confused

Personally, if you are making a recreation or are simply inspired by a real building, then I think you should be as accurate as you can be within the constraints of the game (slope becomes an issue, like in this case). If you want to play architect and make something new, that is the time for one's own design and whim (within the confines of architecture and engineering). When you mix and match, things tend to appear as such, that is, a patchwork of imaginary and factual which is not always appealing.

harishna: Lookin' good (as they say). This project looks fantastic in Max! I can't wait to see that wall (and all of it's lovely details) fully textured. I'll probably wait to make a fuss over the materials until you are a lot closer to finishing the model, but it looks like what you have should work with some refinement.

I have dealt with two cases of recreating buildings on a slope, and the question of how to address that slope is not always an easy one. I had one case with an asymmetrical building like yours and had to do something very similar (elevated plaza). I'm currently working on one where I was able to simply mirror the facade on the two sides, throw a couple of extra floors in and not lose any significant design features. Its a mixed bag, I suppose. A suburban building like this works well with what you did though.

[SimFox 802]

Here is what I was proposing:

So basically you cut off the lower floor on the north side with this solution. In thi solution I deem it to be secondary and "back" while keeping front plaza sunken all around. this going down and then up again to enter library sort of strikes significance of the building and makes reference to the ritual ballgame courtyards of meso-america which in my mind only highlight the dark Grey wall with serpent.

[harishna 847]

thanks for that Simfox, the plaza look really interesting as a sunken plaza I was working on the model lat night and I came out with this, this was before seen your post...my approach was the opposite

[SimFox 802]

It looks fab - great architecture!

My suggestion of the plaza was just that - a suggestion, an idea. Especially since I didn't have references for the north side of the building.

Speaking about you model one slight concern would be perhaps the hight of the floors... What is it at the moment? Do you know the floor hight of the real building?