NTM's BAT Workshop I

[gutterclub 2,733]

I'm not entirely sure signs look like that, that appears to be created with basic block colours in MS paint. Signs are normally painted so may have a vinyl or "shiny" look to them and may have dirt etc on them? Some of the text doesn't fit in the boxes, the traffic lights are different sizes. You have to look at real life signs to see how they are. Also, there are spelling mistakes..hate to be critical but checking stuff like that will help you not just in creating signs but life in general.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Gosh, it's worse that I thought, to be completly honest.

Seriously, you should really follow these guidelines:

- For god sake, be accurate! It looks you did a quick job drawing those signs. Take more time and put in some more effort and precision, because now they look downright ugly!

- Look around to see what sign designs exist in real life. I did some inspiration for my signs in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany.

- The Color Rule: this rule is one of the most important rules of making signs. There are two kinds of colors: metals(white, yellow, orange, light gray) and colors (red, green, blue, purple, dark grey, black). Two metals shouldn't touch each other, nor do colors. In your design, black, green and blue touch each other, which is against this rule. The color rule is meant to make the sign easily readable.

- Use a sign font! Here you can get some.

- Your arrows look awful. Again, here you can find a font with some good arrows.

- Some signs are too complicated. Remember, signs should be as simple as possible.

Compare this sign with your desings:

You see that this one looks a lot better. Why?:

- First, I used Inkscape, a vector image editing program, to make this sign.

- Second, this sign has a more clean, accurate design; arrows are straight, the routeshield [A 73] is exaclty centered in the arrow, and the exit number (3) is placed in a pefectly round circle.

- Third, this design is quite simple: straight ahead goes to Venlo, and the exit right goes to Malden, Molenhoek and Groesbeek. It's a 1000 meters to the point of action. Quite easy to understand, eh?

- Fourth, I used the Color Rule, so even a color-blind can read these signs.

- Fifth, I used the German sign font (DIN 1451 Mittelschrift). The arrows are based on the Dutch sign arrows.

- Sixth, the system is a mixture of the Dutch, Belgian and German sign system. Somethimes, real life concepts are the best concepts existing.

You see, your signs have a lot of room for improvement.

Hope it helps!

Best,

Maarten

[nathanthemayor 1,263]

@maarten:I do not have photoshop or signmaker or any of theose git-gadgests for several reasons:

1)I don't have them.

2)They probably cost money to buy online, and I DON'T have a credit card=(

3)All I have on my PC is MS paint.

Oh, and as well I maynot have mentioned this, but I am NOT modeling after any sign in real life. These signs are fictional disign and I am making them for my CJ. As well, I don't have Inkscape.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Sorry for the double post, but just to show my point that a lot can be improved, here's are my versions of the signs

Original:

My version:

Comments:  right lanes is redundant here. Also, I seperated the sign into two signs.

Original:

My version:

Comments: next intersection is too far away to place it on the sign, also, prepare to stop should be logic, because it's an intersection, which the sign shows.

Original:

My version:

Comments: why use trice the same arrow if you can do the same trick with one?

Original:

My version:

Comments: speed limit should be on a seperate sign. Also, down arrows should do the job.

EDIT: Inkscape is a free Open Source program. You can download it from here.

It's good to have a fictional design. Even my Imaginian have a fictional design. Nevertheless, it's always good to observe how other countries did the job doing their signage. One of your mistakes is putting to much information on the signs.

Best,

Maarten

[madhatter106 3,931]

Originally posted by: nathanthemayor

@maarten:I do not have photoshop or signmaker or any of theose git-gadgests for several reasons:

1)I don't have them.

2)They probably cost money to buy online, and I DON'T have a credit card=(

3)All I have on my PC is MS paint.

Oh, and as well I maynot have mentioned this, but I am NOT modeling after any sign in real life. These signs are fictional disign and I am making them for my CJ. As well, I don't have Inkscape.quote>

I have been using painting metaphors a bunch lately, but here goes...

It's not the tools, it's the work and how you use those tools - anyone can out and buy the latest and fanciest and priciest of tools, but still have no clue how to get what they want out of them.  Likewise, a crayon in the hand of Michelangelo would probably produce a masterpiece.

You don't have to have 3dsMax or Photoshop or "git-gadgets" to create a good building; as for myself, the stuff I make, which I would rate as pretty okay by my standards, is all in gmax, which could be considered a crayon compared to the oil paints that are 3dsMax.  Other BATters (jmyers2043 comes to mind) use MsPaint with great results - his BATs and textures got me fired up to create my own distinct brand of small commercial buildings....

[Simaddict1000 1]

Originally posted by: nathanthemayor

@maarten:I do not have photoshop or signmaker or any of theose git-gadgests for several reasons:

1)I don't have them.

2)They probably cost money to buy online, and I DON'T have a credit card=(

3)All I have on my PC is MS paint.

Oh, and as well I maynot have mentioned this, but I am NOT modeling after any sign in real life. These signs are fictional disign and I am making them for my CJ. As well, I don't have Inkscape.quote>

This is  FREE photo editing software that you can use to create your signs.  It's just as good as photoshop and in my opinion is better than it when it comes to certain tasks.

http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

It can be complicated to use at first but there are plenty of tutorials on how to use it - the easiest way is just to go on youtube.

By the way something that strikes me as odd is that you have opened a BAT thread for help and are completely ignoring anything anyone says.  It's realy annoying. We are trying to help you  with your projects...the least you could do is pay attention to the things we say.

Good luck with the signs.

[nathanthemayor 1,263]

Sorrrrrrryyyy I have not responded to any of your comments:I have a L.I.F.E. I am not sure what I will do about the sign textures, but I will release them sometime(Sorry, I mean the sign pack), and I think alll I will do is just edit them in paint. If you want to give any directions, please have them correspond to MS paint ONLY!!

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Originally posted by: nathanthemayor

Sorrrrrrryyyy I have not responded to any of your comments:I have a L.I.F.Equote>

Not quite a good, I have got a life too. I'm not working like a machine on SimCity

Originally posted by: nathanthemayor

... If you want to give any directions, please have them correspond to MS paint ONLY!!quote>

I already gave you some guidelines in this post:

https://www.simtropolis.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=37&threadid=112427&STARTPAGE=5#1694678

Even when you use MS Paint, you can still make good signs. Here are two for example:

    

As Madhatter said, it's not the tools you have that matter, but how you use them.

Best,

Maarten

[c-doodlez-man 16]

not bad. keep it up!

[nathanthemayor 1,263]

Okay, i decided to correct the sign textures one at a time, so first here is the LHS exit one(I forgot to put(Toll road over the Loop 20 routeshield because I forgot it is a tollway).*btw how do you make your signs HD in-game because even when I export in high quality mode they arn't even close to HD.*

[gutterclub 2,733]

The arrows appear to be a bit wonky, prepare to merge is right on the edge of it's backing colour..and I'm not entirely sure as I haven't seen every sign there is, but normally the text would be white on a blue background and a different font, as it's supposed to be so drivers can read easily without having to take their eyes off the road.

[madhatter106 3,931]

Originally posted by: gutterclub

The arrows appear to be a bit wonky, prepare to merge is right on the edge of it's backing colour..and I'm not entirely sure as I haven't seen every sign there is, but normally the text would be white on a blue background and a different font, as it's supposed to be so drivers can read easily without having to take their eyes off the road.quote>

I agree with all of the above.

A black serif font in upper and lowercase on a blue background which is nearly the same value = not readable from any good distance.  

Take a look at your images, and then squint your eyes nearly closed and look at them again; the black and the blue disappear into each other.  Which is exactly what they would do in real life from a distance.

The lettering not aligning with the background colors is yet another sign (no pun intended) that this is work is nowhere near finished; it looks rushed, unpolished, unrefined, inelegant.  That may sound harsh, but it's the truth, and it's been harped upon numerous times in this thread.  

Youthful exuberance and enthusiasm should not overshadow good, decent, thorough, well-thought through and well-executed work.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Haven't you read my comments a few posts back?

Originally posted by: mrtnrln

- For god sake, be accurate! It looks you did a quick job drawing those signs. Take more time and put in some more effort and precision, because now they look downright ugly!

...

- The Color Rule: this rule is one of the most important rules of making signs. There are two kinds of colors: metals(white, yellow, orange, light gray) and colors (red, green, blue, purple, dark grey, black). Two metals shouldn't touch each other, nor do colors. In your design, black, green and blue touch each other, which is against this rule. The color rule is meant to make the sign easily readable.

- Use a sign font! Here you can get some.

- Your arrows look awful. Again, here you can find a font with some good arrows.quote>

I see these faults still exist in your new design. If you follow the tips I showed to you, you can easily get rid of ugly arrows and bad color combinations. Also, your sign can use a better font; the font pack you get following the links above include Clearview (US), Highway Gothic (US), Transport (UK) and DIN 1451 (Germany), but in the pack the last font has two variations, called Mittelschrift and Engschrift. These fonts are specially made for signs to make it easily readable, even from a distance or at a angle.

I hope you finally take some of our good advice from us, because I see that my efforts showing how to improve your signs give little to no result (O.K. may sound harsh, but that's my point of view).

EDIT: which sign would you rather see: the top one (your design) or the bottom one (corrected design):

Best,

Maarten

[Vahr 343]

Nathan,

Your sign layout is pretty nice, but its hard to read at a distance. Why?

1. Colors do not contrast from each other

2. Typeface/font is too "complex" Use a FHWY font, or for a last ditch, Calibri.

As maarten said above, certain colors should not be on top of each other.

Listed in background-foreground order, these are "acceptable" color stackings:

Blue White

Yellow Black

Green White

Take a look at this sign, and notice how I've changed the outline color on the top left to black when its over the yellow.

Also note the use of the contrast colors.

Just to give you an idea about colors, arrows, and letters

EXAMPLE ONLY

[nathanthemayor 1,263]

PLEASE people, for the LAST LAST TIME I AM NOT MODELING AFTER ANYTHING IN REAL LIFE(Sorry about the all caps, I'm using it for emphisis)!!!!

@mrtnrln:In your pic, you use this as an overhanging sign. However, I AM NOT making an overhanging sign.... I am making a billboard- style sign for my CJ.

[Jasoncw 12,012]

Why are you posting here?  What kinds of comments are you looking for?

The design of your signs can't be criticized because they're not based on anything in real life.

The quality of your signs can't be criticized because you won't get the programs needed to make them properly.

[madhatter106 3,931]

Originally posted by: Jasoncw

Why are you posting here?  What kinds of comments are you looking for?

The design of your signs can't be criticized because they're not based on anything in real life.

The quality of your signs can't be criticized because you won't get the programs needed to make them properly.

quote>

Exactly.  This is spot on. 

None of my buildings exist in "real life," but there are certain details and characteristics of them that can be taken from "real life" which inform the design and make them more believable, more realistic, and ultimately better.

There's little point in creating a thread to solicit opinions and/or improve your work if you're not going to listen to what's being said by others.  Don't come here for asspats and praise - come here to show your stuff and get it critiqued and learn how to make it better.

[Vahr 343]

Nathan,

I understand you may be frustrated, but keep in mind these people are taking their time to help you achieve a higher level of quality and skill. When I get criticisms and suggestions in my BAT thread and/or anything really, I consider them deeply, decide whether if it falls within reasonable bound (and most of the comments in your thread fall within "reasonable bounds") test it out, and decide. If you really want to know, I've gone from this:

This is one of my origional sign palates. Quite ugly, don't you think? Fonts look terrible as well. I considered it "my style" but after thinking from different angles, and seeing actual signs, discarded it as a failed design.

to

Improving, getting closer. Font and colors are off, but basic colors, layouts (tad squashed I must admit) and such are figured out.

Finally, after lots of work, rework, suggestions, etc ends up with

These signs still retain some of my origionality, but they're quite easy to read and you could imagine seeing one on an actual highway. Also notice that I've adjusted colors and fonts since the last base set.

PLEASE people, for the LAST LAST TIME I AM NOT MODELING AFTER ANYTHING IN REAL LIFEquote>

Problem is, most of the sign designs IRL are designed that way for a reason. Not modeling it off of decades of studies and proof of concept work for something like signs pretty much gurentees that theres going to be issues that reduce readability.

mrtnrln:In your pic, you use this as an overhanging sign. However, I AM NOT making an overhanging sign.... I am making a billboard- style sign for my CJ.quote>

Right now, you and the rest are concerned about the sign board itself. The same principals hold true no matter if its side mounted or overhanging.

I hope you take the time to consider and think about these things, including what madhatter and jason mentioned. Remember, praise is good, but constructive criticisms that help you get better is great. And generally, praise follows after refinement of skill.

Also, seeing your replies to some people, I can infer that you merely skim the text and go immediately to defending yourself. Please, please, please take the time to consider what people are saying.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Originally posted by: nathanthemayor

PLEASE people, for the LAST LAST TIME I AM NOT MODELING AFTER ANYTHING IN REAL LIFEquote>

It's very, very recommended to do so. Signs in real life don't come out of nowhere. They have some logic and a system. They are designed to be easily understandable, especially when you pass by these signs at high speeds.

By the way, real life systems just look better. Compare the following two signs:

The below one looks better, eh? That's the newest version of the Imaginian signage system, while the top one is the very first one. See the difference?

Originally posted by: nathanthemayor

@mrtnrln:In your pic, you use this as an overhanging sign. However, I AM NOT making an overhanging sign.... I am making a billboard- style sign for my CJ. As well, my style is the way I want it. quote>

You're totally missing the point! The point is that your sign design is just bad. The only difference between the two signs is the sign itself and not the supports. By the way, this sign just looks more suited for a portal support that a billboard style. And the argument "my style is the way I want it" is quite a weak argument.

I would also suggest reading this article.

I think I'm not going to reply anymore, because if you won't listen, replying would be a waste of time. It would be just like talking to a wall.

Best,

Maarten

[nathanthemayor 1,263]

Okay people, I decided to change the black text on every sign to white. Now, here I am comparing version 1 of the LHS exit and the latest one.

@Jasoncw: I was told to open up a BAT thread in here, and I was told to only upload when I get good comments.

Version 1:

Version 2:

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Well, as far as the suggestion to open a BAT thread is concerned, this suggestion was made under the assumption that everybody who creates custom content would normally be interested in receiving feedback and suggestions on how to improve (i.e., constructive criticism).

Of course, if you don't really care much about what people have to say, a BAT thread is rather pointless. And if you only want to collect some "very goods" and "awesomes", but don't pay attention to critical comments, there is a certain danger that people will think "OK, if he doesn't listen to me anyway, I'll just stop posting".

It's all a question of what you actually want:

Alternative A) Do you want to create all stuff exactly as you want, entirely on your own, and simply upload, no matter whether you get bad ratings and negative comments? Then you can have all this liberty - simply keep the development to yourself, and upload when you're done. However, in this case you shouldn't expect people to provide any help or to praise you.

Alternative B) Or do you want help from the community, and are you interested in receiving some praise, good STEX ratings, and high download numbers? Then the best way is to open a thread and listen to feedback, but in this case you will have to live with criticism and with people telling you that something won't work or doesn't look realistic. You may find that your impression of how things should look like will not find consent.

So you see, both alternatives have their upsides and downsides - speaking ironically, you could say that if you go with A), people will scold you after you upload, and if you stick to B), people will scold you before you upload. 

Back to topic, if you look at the recent sign that you posted, don't you like this a lot better than the first version after all? Or do you think that the first version was better? I'm not asking this as a trap question or a rhethorical question, I'd really like to know. If you think that you liked the first version more, you might be better off with Alternative A, but if you really like the new version better, then you should choose Alternative B.

[His Divine Hand 244]

I would say that version 2 is an improvement over version 1. I also think you should change that pale green to a brighter, more distinct color to help differentiate it from the pale blue back ground. But the rounding of the corners and the better alignment of the arrows with an improvement in text contrast is definitely a step in the right direction.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

The new version looks much better now, but here are just a few extra tips and images you can use for your signs.

Arrows:
Your arrow still show some imperfections. Therefore, you can use one of the below arrows instead:
1. Rounded arrows.
2. Hearthead arrows.
3. Blockhead arrows.



If you want one of those arrows, right-click on the image and select "save image as" and place it somewhere on your computer where you can find it. You can open the file with Paint and copy the arrows from the image.

Colors:
As His Divine Hand already said, your colors are a bit too bright. Above (1) is your current color sheme. Below (2) is my own prefered color scheme:



If you want the same color scheme (it's worth trying, but if you don't like it, you can always go back to the original color scheme), right-click on the image and select "save image as" and place it somewhere on your computer where you can find it. You can open the file with Paint and use the color select tool to copy the colors.

Font:
The font you currently use is Times New Roman (1). It's a "too complicated" font for a sign and at least I find it quite ugly. You might want to try another font. Calibri (2) is a decent font you can find on every Windows computer. Real Life sign fonts might also be advised. Here I show you SNV (3), Highway Gothic Series E (4) and DIN 1451 Mittelschrift (5). The last two fonts are available here (link).



Route shields: 
Your current routeshields are looking a bit amateuristic. With a few little changes, your shields can look much more professional and convincing:

Style 1 (Standard):
   

Style 2 (White Toll Marking):
   

Style 3 (Round edges):
   

If you want one of those, well, you know how you can get them. If you don't like the font used on the shields, you can just remove the printing.

I hope you can use these things and I hope you keep on going in the right direction

Best,
Maarten

[SimFox 804]

Originally posted by: T Wrecks

Back to topic, if you look at the recent sign that you posted, don't you like this a lot better than the first version after all? Or do you think that the first version was better? I'm not asking this as a trap question or a rhethorical question, I'd really like to know. If you think that you liked the first version more, you might be better off with Alternative A, but if you really like the new version better, then you should choose Alternative B.quote>

well there might be a third option/answer here - I don't see the difference. IMHO this is the only explanation of putting the 1st sight for concideration.

MadHatter106:

I would like to refer you to your own signature. You've put there rather wise statement about textures... Yet you don't seem to actually understand what it says (or what it really means). All you've written here so far demonstrate that you have some sort of aversion to actually doing things. Doing like in thinking what, how and why. Instead you just want things just happen... Meaning you just type, select first random(ish) color, sketch something and go! None of those demonstrate any of those three (What, How, Why).

Naturally you get upset/enraged (select closer) when you're given some though through comments and suggestions. Those are simply incompatible with you ways.

But then again, what does that statement do in your signature?

PS.

"it's not based on anything/Don't have that exactly particular program" - are way-way too lame excuses. They aren't real reason things appear exactly the way they do...

I really hope you listen to what mrtnrln says!

[T Wrecks 10,210]

SimFox, your last post is a mystery to me. 

Originally posted by: SimFox

well there might be a third option/answer here - I don't see the difference. IMHO this is the only explanation of putting the 1st sight for concideration.quote>

 Huh? Do you mean the difference between the two signs, or the difference between the two alternatives? If you meant the signs, there is quite a huge difference already IMHO. If you were referring to the alternatives I mentioned, I merely wanted to point out that nathanthemayor of course doesn't have to open a BAT thread in order to please us. If the only reason he posts here is because everybody urged him to do so, then it might be worth stopping to think a bit.

Likewise, what does this passage here:

Originally posted by: SimFox

MadHatter106:

I would like to refer you to your own signature. You've put there rather wise statement about textures... Yet you don't seem to actually understand what it says (or what it really means). All you've written here so far demonstrate that you have some sort of aversion to actually doing things. Doing like in thinking what, how and why. Instead you just want things just happen... Meaning you just type, select first random(ish) color, sketch something and go! None of those demonstrate any of those three (What, How, Why).

Naturally you get upset/enraged (select closer) when you're given some though through comments and suggestions. Those are simply incompatible with you ways.

But then again, what does that statement do in your signature?

PS.

"it's not based on anything/Don't have that exactly particular program" - are way-way too lame excuses. They aren't real reason things appear exactly the way they do...

I really hope you listen to what mrtnrln says!quote>

...have to do with madhatter106? He isn't making these signs, and he didn't say anything of what you are criticising. nathanthemayor, in turn, doesn't have the signature you are referring to.

I really don't understand your post, it looks to me like you got seriously confused. 

[mntoes 271]

mrtnrln I have to admire you sir. If there were a Trixie for patience then you would get my vote. Let's hope Nathan appreciates your help.

[MandelSoft 2,775]

Again I've created some improved versions of Nathan's signs:

Like it? This one looks pretty clean, realistic, professional and yet still much imaginary. It just took me about 30 minutes to create this one. I used:

- Colors: My own color scheme

- Font: SNV

- Arrows: Block arrows

- and Rounded routshields

The layout of the left sign is quite simmilar to the signs in Belgium. The right one has also quite a Belgian layout, except that the routeshield is placed on top, instead of inbetween the arrows.

I'm curious what's your opinion about this sign, Nathan.

Best,

Maarten

EDIT: @mntoes: yes, I'm patient, because I'm a roadgeek and can't stand to see a sign design fail

[SimFox 804]

Oh I'm sooo terribly sorry.... I don't know what came over me...My special apologies to Madhatter106. I've totally confused him with the originator of this thread. Naturaly it makes the whole thing I've written addressing him mute...

Once more, apologies...

As for the first part, TWrecks, I meant the choice of signs and one who include first on into consideration. Because it is SO BAD, I can only assume that person doing so simply doesn't see it. So, naturally he can't really proceed with your questions.

I want to make clear why I just say so bluntly BAD and spell it in capital letters. I do so because it made with almost deliberate "i don't give a flying (insert what ever you feel here)" attitude and it is literally flaunted when people with knowledge and skill (mrtrln) take time to very clearly and very patiently explain all the ins and outs and more - the reasons behind them.

I mean people could be inexperienced on color theory but offering the sign#1 for consideration is like slapping community on the face. Just look at the canary background under "prepared to merge"! What is that? Luck of the specific program? Or not following real life?

I was following this thread from the beginning and was really curious when some sort of catharsis will take place.

Anyway, I'm, probably, again way to out of line ...

[T Wrecks 10,210]

Well, I didn't understand nathan's posting of the two signs as a choice for us. I rather think he simply posted the old one to highlight just how much the new sign differs from that first version. And I must say that the progress is quite clearly visible!

The question of choice was raised by me, and it was less related to the particular project. I was rather aiming at the entire sense of this thread, at least in its current shape.

Look, Nathan might be rather young, and he probably doesn't have the trained eye many of you have. Likewise, he might not care much about the readability and realism of a sign that's so tiny the letters will be a blurred line in game anyway.

Now one thing we shouldn't forget is that this is all about a game. It's supposed to be fun. Especially here, in the custom content corner, we have many perfectionists. This is good, because it ensures that great stuff is made. Then again, occasionally the enthusiasm and attention to detail of these perfectionists might clash with a more "care-free" attitude of some younger member who simply wants to make something for the game - it doesn't have to be perfect for him - but feels urged by others to open a BAT thread, only to become overwhelmed with tons of suggestions and instructions he gets. He might feel that all that stuff is breaking a fly on the wheel. He might feel that others push him around and tell him how he should do everything - just as if someone broke into his dreams and started to re-arrange everything.

That's why I thought it might be useful to stop a while and reflect: "What do I actually want, which alternatives are there, what would be my preferred choice, and what would this entail?" This might help to take some pressure out of the entire affair.

Therefore, I'd ask everybody involved to relax a little... we all need to learn, and while some people grasp new stuff quickly, others need a bit more time. Pushing more and more might be counterproductive in the long run - sometimes it can help to sit back, let someone make a mistake and learn the lesson himself. 

 Imagine you are trying to paint a picture, and every five minutes someone takes the brush out of your hand, repaints some details, tells you to do it this way or that way, and then someone else presents you a beautiful finished painting and tells you that he did this in X minutes - while all this advice might be technically correct, I'm pretty sure that the first and foremost thing it will achieve is to take all the fun out of painting pictures for you. In the long run, you might benefit more if people gave you some more room to breathe. 

[thingfishs 417]

Originally posted by: T Wrecks

He might feel that others push him around and tell him how he should do everything - just as if someone broke into his dreams and started to re-arrange everything.

quote>

Nicely put T Wrecks. While I don't agree with how nathan goes about things (I stopped trying to help several pages ago), I agree that more experienced folk can sometimes be too forthright with trying to enforce their opinions. If they're getting mad while someone isn't listening, well the jokes on them really... 

And you're absolutely right, there's nothing worse in a teacher than someone who is impatient, and it will show in their student's progress.