NTM's BAT Workshop I

[Francis90b 748]

Well, i'm glad to see your first attempt at the BAT! However this is not really a good one, cause there are too many things that needs to be improved-fixed-changed.Don't worry, many first BATs does have this issue, and I guess that many first BATs did never see the light of the day. I'd like to strongly suggest you to post your creations at an earlier stage, instead of showing finished products.You don't need to prove anything, and if we can see your creations while you model them, we can help much more, and you can learn and practice faster. EDIT: oops, i did edit that reply before seeing your answer.Sorry.

[TekindusT 3,809]

I would put much more emphasis on the roof. The roof junk (you know, vents, air conditioning...) is very important for BATs like yours because it is the most visible part of your building once you're in-game. Even more important if you're doing a CS$/CS$$.

There's a basic BAT tutorial on the Omnibus which shows very well how to make an air conditioning unit, I guess you've checked it before begin BATting...

[thingfishs 416]

Good to see you giving BATting a go. I don't think you necessarily need to start again but I agree that your first BAT may or may not be upload worthy, as I've said before be patient. Everyone will point you towards "BAT Essentials" which is an excellent though very comprehensive beginners guide. Personally at the beginning I found it too much and I learnt a lot more from this gentler introductory tutorial here: https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=919.0

Another thing is that it's better to make your model out of individual planes rather than as a single box as you have here, but as it's your first BAT and it's a small shop I think you can get around it. But you will have to learn how to "boolean".

As for your model the two most important next steps are making a roof (textured differently to the walls), this can be a simple plane or box object, as well as some thin long boxes at the edges of the roof for raised roof edges. 

The other thing is to learn to do boolean subtraction. Where your window or door is on your building make a box that... (I'll demonstrate with some photos:

Make a box a place it where your door or window will be, make it go right through the wall.

Select the building, select compound objects, click on boolean, click on pick operand B and finally click on the (in this case) purple box.

This will remove the area that the purple box was covering, allowing you to add doors etc. The main advantage of this is to allow you to set back doors (or windows) a bit which creates some depth on a face of a building (very important).

Also as was said you'll want to add what's referred to as "roof junk" and add some more details but that can come later. 

1. Get a basic roof on and 2. learn how to boolean subtract,

There's my four and a half cents, again.

[nathanthemayor 1,261]

BTW, How did you get the photos from the BAT??

[MandelSoft 2,769]

Obviously he used Print Screen, and then copied it in MS Paint (or something simmilar and saved it.

[Francis90b 748]

I believe that Tightfishs's suggesstions is a great one for the model you have. One thing though....while using the boolean you should think about the number of openings you're going to need...i've found out that it is quite prone to behave strangely if you have too many "cuts" to do inside the wall.This is not your case, though. In short, it works greatly for small things like your model, but it might give some troubles if you, for example, want to model the windows of a skyscraper this way.

You might go this way:

-Create a box for anything you'd like to cut inside the wall (i.e roof, doors, windows)

-Select any of those newly-created boxes

-Go on the "modify" panel, select the modifier list, and the "edit mesh command on it.

-Then use the "attach" command and attach every box you'd like to cut by clicking on it.

-Then go on the "create" panel, choose "compound objects" on the drop-down menu, then pick the box you'd like to keep.

-Pick "boolean"

-Pick the boxes you'd like to cut as the "operand B".  Here is the result:

[nathanthemayor 1,261]

Francis90:Thanks for the advise, I amy use it in my current project, and mrtnln;I tried "Print screen', but nothing happens.

[Jumpthefence 74]

Originally posted by: nathanthemayor

I tried "Print screen', but nothing happens.quote>

Pressing Print Screen doesn't actually print the screenshot with your printer. On the contrary, it places it on your Clipboard, often replacing whatever is there now, for future use (in this case, as an image). Now, if you go into Paint and press Ctrl+V you will paste the image onto your painting canvas. This is, of course, assuming you haven't already put something else on the Clipboard in between hitting Print Screen and Ctrl+V.

I hope to see more in the future from you!

You've got a lot of BAT potential!

[nathanthemayor 1,261]

Jumpthefence:Thanks!That's how I will showcase my BAT work!

Also, here is a photo of the building from the BAT, and be sure to check out my city journal and Lot thread(links are in the signitaure). I am building this for one of my bad cities in my bad region(It's sort of like one of the bad venues from societies, just a smal shop cramed between factories)

Note:The stuff on top is roof junk ,and there are two doors because they are two seperate shops(one is a bar and the other is a DVD rental store)

[DCMetro34 576]

Not bad, but for one, the left door wouldn't really be hanging off the edge, and probably not that tall. But, I like the idea!

[Faded Glory 13]

Not too shabby. Your definatly improving. Are the doors supposed to be an enterance and an exit? If so, it might be a good idea to put them together to create one large double door. If this isn't possible, then let me know; I have no experience with BATing.

[Cockatoo 2,256]

This is good Nathan. It's not ready for the STEX yet, but give it some time and I'm sure you'll get there. This is what you're aiming for.

Btw, I really like your avatar. The sharp yellow contrasts with the black perfectly and the raw hand-painted text is just wonderful. I liked it so much that I actually decided to make my own! Hope you don't mind.

[Francis90b 748]

Yeah, that's really a progress!

I second Cockatoo's thoughts about this BAT, and i believe that some more tweaks will make the difference!

Here's some thoughts i''d like to share after looking at your last picture:

-First:are this building divided in two shops? then it might be a good idea to have a wall to divide them from the front to the back (at least if they're separate activities with different owners, as i guess from your last post).

-Second:Such small shops have the external walls bearing the weight of the whole structures, and does usually have large ambients inside, sometimes divided by thin walls that doesn't have a structural role.Try to highlight this by making the roof a bit smaller in comparison with the model's outline (just like i did in the pictures i've posted in my last reply)

-Third:Considering what i wrote in the second point, it might be a good idea to move a bit the left door on the right.

-Fourth:Given that they're shops, it might be a good idea to give them large windows to let them expose their products (I'm thinking about the dvd shop) or to allow some light inside them (the pub) -Fifth: it seems like your doors and windows are lying on the edge of the walls, just like if they were textured on the box.As i've said before, that's not really good. If the walls are thicker than the windows (and they usually do) it might be a good idea to recess them inside the facade by a small amount.Hope this pic may explain the concept:

See? the windows are recessed into the facade.

-Sixth:Why don't add a small step next to the doors? In my opinion it would be a little nice touch.That's just my opinion, though.

-Seventh:Regarding the windows, (again) try to model the structure of the windows as well (the window frames) rather than texture them.Using splines to do that might be a good idea.If you need some help just ask, and i might elaborate this point a little more

-Eight: what kind of stuff do you plan to put on the roof? I see that you have put some stuff on the roof, but honestly i can't understand the sense of some of it.Could you talk a little about the roof junk? What would you like to get?

That's a nice progress, just keep going and i'm sure you'll have some nice little shops to show !

(don't be afraid to ask for help though)

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

I have to agree with the comments already given.

Take another look at Francis90b's model, it may not have a lot of details, but it still looks good because it has all of the right proportions. Meaning, nothing is exaggerated but is more like how you would expect to see it in reality. The things you have now are largely out of proportion, the chimneys are enormous, the front wall is tiny given the number of businesses occupying it (from my guess its about 6m, which is pretty small for one shop, let alone two).

I think that you really need to pick out a reference picture of the thing you are trying to make here. With that you can look at all the proportions, dimensions, and details that make up even the most simple little building. It is very difficult to create architecture without first understanding the basic shapes and proportions any building must contain.

Best of luck,

-Todd

P.S. By the way, simply smashing new avatar Cockatoo, it really suits you!

[DazzaDazza 29]

well that's not bad Nathan, keep up the good work!!!

I'm glad to see you wont to learn and improve

[nathanthemayor 1,261]

Also, here it is the other BAT project I am working on, also simple:A pack of two overhanging billboards for overpasses, which were requested by krenemo

[Evillions 552]

The size for that billboard in width is too big. You should keep the exturde amount to 0.5 or 0.2. Also, you make your own textures and they're are not found, that's what makes a good BAT. The textures can really matter in BATs such as average modeling with outstanding texturing is mostly what people choose over to a BAT with horrible textures. Look at real life examples or pictures to get what you're aiming for. When doing Sci-Fi, that's a whole other story, but just try to make it look realistic as possible.

Additionally, boleen can sometimes mess you up, so just stick with the splines for now since you can make more in-depth detail with splines such as curved windows, stairs (its a mesh when using 3dsmax2010.), etc. 

[mntoes 270]

Some improvement here. Lots of good advice given to help you along. The only thing I can think of to add is to compare the size of the bricks on the two chimneys. On a building of this size they would certainley be of the same size. So I would make the both the same size.

Good luck with your project.

[nofunk 1,933]

I have to agree with Evillions regarding boolean subtraction. It is one way of cutting holes for windows and doors, and some people swear by it, but it also has a tendency to throw all kinds of weird geometry into your model. In my experience, it can be a rather unpredictable way of doing things.

I would highly recommend simply working with splines. Make a rectangle for your wall, and then make some new rectangles for the doors and windows where you want them to be, and then attach them all together. Then extrude.

I look forward to seeing more of your work here, now that you have the BAT working! Just remember: slow and steady wins the race. I know that sounds cliche, but it really is true when it comes to BATing. Most people on here, including me, started from scratch and it takes a lot of trial and error to learn how to model. But once you get it you can make some really amazing things!

Best of luck,  Nathan!

[madhatter106 3,903]

Originally posted by: Cockatoo-210893

It's not ready for the STEX yet, but give it some time and I'm sure you'll get there. This is what you're aiming for.quote>

Awww, you're too kind.    I feel like Aristotle or Socrates, a danger to young, impressionable minds.  LOL

Originally posted by: nofunk

I have to agree with Evillions regarding boolean subtraction. It is one way of cutting holes for windows and doors, and some people swear by it, but it also has a tendency to throw all kinds of weird geometry into your model. In my experience, it can be a rather unpredictable way of doing things.quote>

I agree with the above - I didn't even use booleans until after a solid year of tinkering in gmax.  It was splines all the way with me - I felt I had better control over certain things, and it made editing and texturing that much simpler.  It does have an unpredictability factor involved, something which I would avoid if you're just starting out.

Just remember: slow and steady wins the race. I know that sounds cliche, but it really is true when it comes to BATing.quote>

Agreed here as well.  The house isn't on fire, and the STEX isn't going to disappear tomorrow - there's no need to blaze through things just to get it posted on the STEX....

[Evillions 552]

Should've seen my first tries at BATing, I was horrible at it and quit gmax. Then I started to look at tips and such to help me and got the hang of it. Sooner or later, I started making better quality buildings and some of my BATs are going to be shown the the SM Beta3. It really takes trail and error like nofunk said such as nightlighting and texturing. Trust me both are a pain to work with and rarely get it the first time.

About boleen (compound meshes) , I never knew it was there until my second year of BATing. lol

[nathanthemayor 1,261]

Update on my overhanging billboard, if it does well ,I will publish it on the STEX tomorrow morning

[Cockatoo 2,256]

Update on my overhanging billboard, if it does well ,I will publish it on the STEX tomorrow morningquote>

Unless you plan to work on it all night, please don't. It needs more detail, lighting, something to stand on etc... If you upload a (poorly) textured box to the STEX you might just as well say... "Hey, I haven't listened to a single one of you!"

Not to mention, you'll probably get some pretty nasty STEX responses. For your own sake, don't do it. Put in some more work.

[T Wrecks 10,209]

I agree with cockatoo 100 %. In fact, I like the idea of SimCity billboards in SimCity, that's a nice touch. They really should be more than a textured box, though. They'll need some kind of support structure and whatnot in order to look realistic.

[madhatter106 3,903]

Originally posted by: Cockatoo-210893

Update on my overhanging billboard, if it does well ,I will publish it on the STEX tomorrow morningquote>

Unless you plan to work on it all night, please don't. It needs more detail, lighting, something to stand on etc... If you upload a (poorly) textured box to the STEX you might just as well say... "Hey, I haven't listened to a single one of you!"

Not to mention, you'll probably get some pretty nasty STEX responses. For your own sake, don't do it. Put in some more work.

quote>

I agree.  For the love of Pete, take this piece of advice which we've been harping on in both your lot thread and this thread...

 SLOW DOWN.

The billboard is nowhere near finished.  Like I've said earlier, the house isn't on fire, and the STEX can go another day without this being uploaded to it.

This may or may not be the case, but I find that when new people are in a hurry to post stuff to the STEX, it's only because they want to see five stars next to their uploads and lots of "great work!" and "this is fantastic!" replies in the comments section.  Which is NOT the reason to be creating custom content for Simtropolis...the stars and the good comments are the icing on the cake, and not the goal...

[Evillions 552]

For the love of god, please don't upload this until finished. Where's all those details and the pole?

For once please take advice from us, we're trying to help you and not become the average BATer forever.

[Faded Glory 13]

As the countless others have said, slow down! I would love to see this have a tiny bit more finesse and become something truly awesome. Back supports and a front scaffolding are desperatly needed. Again, this would turn a box with pictures into a true blue billboard.

As always, I mean the best.

~Faded Glory

[DazzaDazza 29]

 

 Sorry to sound harsh Nathan, but this is how I won’t your billboard to look.  Use these examples work of them, study them, next time you in the city look around at billboards   

There are millions more on goggle images, if you need help crateing thses thing ask..... If you don’t ask you wont improve,  . 

 If it doesn’t look this then people wont it, they wont download it, you will never see anyone using your content in there game, witch would be a shame, because you have grate enthusiasm for what you are doing.  
 

[SimHoTToDDy 2,938]

See the pictures above? Try adding the details and parts that you see in them (eg. Lights, a platform for people to stand/change the sign, railings for said platform, supports on which the sign hangs, etc.)

Also, any chance you could show us a preview render? That is much more helpful than the gmax screen shots. We really don't know what to improve if we don't know what it looks like

[Francis90b 748]

Well Nathan, i'd like to offer you an advice, not only for this specific model but also as a general rule: Carefully observe the features of the things you're going to model. Try to see how things does work, what's the logic behind them, and be sure you got it.BATing requires two skills.One is to use the BAT, the other is simply to be able to observe and catch the logic behind things.They may be architectural details or billboards or anything, some observation skills are always needed. You will develop them over the time, just give yourself some time. Hope this might help . Oh, and consider the point of SimHoTToDDy about making preview renders.I'm sure it will help you as well. Welcome to page 3!