What makes a 'City' a city..?

[yellowguy88 1]

Well the reason im asking this is because i live in the Republic of Ireland and while not being a very small country by land mass.. we are by population which stands now at around 4.5million,

Dublin is the only 'real' city (population wise) in Ireland its pop. is now around 1.6million.. which for a country of only 4.5million people this is very large, so all the rest we have are very small cities like Cork the 2nd largest city in Ireland at 274,000, Galway (72,414) or even smaller still Kilkenny 25,000 now to someone who lives in lets say japan these would be just towns but here they are cities, so what way would you define a city just by population or is it something else?

[Geronimo 4]

Oh, I think its impossible to answer cause its so many factors counting.

In Norway where Im from the smallest city is only populated by around 5000 citizens (the whole community) where only 1500 lives in the "city".  

The capital of Norway, Oslo has a population of about 580 000 and is the biggest, so in international scale we`re not very big at all.

Some places benefit from given the status as a "city" therefor a lot of them has popped up lately. 

In more heavy populated areas I guess its harder to earn such status. 

My fellow compatriot Exile has put togheter an article about what a city must have to be a pefect city, you can read it here: 

Perfect city? 13 things a city MUST have to be "perfect"

Thoughts on this anyone? Whats the "cityuation" where you live?

[un1 41]

In Ontario cities are over 16,000 and even if they drop below they are still called cities. (City Of Dryden Ontario, Population 4,000)

-un1

[yellowguy88 1]

Your rite its hard to define but i would consider Dublin and Cork the only 'real' cities in Ireland but im from Dublin so thats to be expected i guess! the smallest city in Ireland is Kilkenny at 25,000.. lol now thats seems large with the ones yous have mentioned.. So would yous consider those 2'cities' cities or towns?

[ExiL3 10]

Depending on how you calculate what inhabitants belong to the city, region, metro etc.

Dublin City has a pop. of ca. 506,000, and Oslo a pop. of 570,000. Which makes Oslo City larger than Dublins. Though If you look at the metro/region area, Dublin has a pop. of 1,6 millions and Oslo a pop. of 1,1 millions.

I guess it is all dependant on how you calculate density in an urban area, or if you calculate the city in political city limits.

Here in Norway there are no longer any rules as to what a city should have, though earlier it would not be a city if it didn't have a postoffice, local firedept. police and doctors office.

I come from a town that has held the title as a city since 1816, and it only has a pop. of 20,000.

I'm studying urban planning atm. so this is a pretty interesting subject for me

,take care

[how_deep 2]

In Texas, cities must be incorporated with a city government to be considered a "city." Elmendorf, a rural suburb of San Antonio had a y2000 population of around 950, but was still technically a "city." Towns not incorporated are called Census Designated Places. San Antonio itself has become a major city by international standards with a 1.3 million population (2 million metro).

[nihonkaranws 88]

I am from Japan. Well, in Tokyo, the whole city is not actually a city. It is a metropolitan area, that accompany Tokyo Prefecture and some of the surround prefectures as well. The metro is divided into 23 'special wards' (ku), which govern themselves as a city, but are bordered right next to each other. This is because Tokyo has become so large as a whole, its population exceeds 30 million. Of course, these wards are united by one government the 'Tokyo Metropolitan Governmet' in one building called the Tax Tower (that's what we Tokyoites* call it), which acts as the city hall for the whole of the Tokyo. And of course, neighboring cities such as Yokohama, lie next to Tokyo, ever increasing the huge metropolitan area.

*Ah, but I'm not a Tokyoite anymore. I moved to Fukuoka last month.

[yellowguy88 1]

I love Tokyo, went there for st.Patrick's day last year was great! amazing place amazing people! still cannot believe the size of it over 30million, wow coming from a country with 4.5million people you can imagine how cool it was to be there!

how_deep: Can you have a town government, or is it just a chase of 'if your big enough to have a government your a city'?

ExiL3:thats interesting,what was the rule b4 to be city?.. i wonder have you studied Dublin..we have some of the worst urban sprawl in the EU.. lol

[Duke87 1,070]

Well, the US Census Bureau defines a "city" as any municipality with a population of over 100,000.

But technically speaking, it's not that simple. In different states, municipalities take on different designations.

In New York, there  are three: city, town, and village. There's no standard for deciding which is which, but in general, cities have larger populations, towns have large land area but not very dense population, and villages are small dense population centers.

In Connecticut, you have cities and towns. The state makes no distinction between the two legally, it's just a matter of what the municipality in question decides to call itself. And that can change over time. Take Stamford (where I live), for example. Originally, it was the "Town of Stamford", from when it was settled in 1639 up through about 1890 or so. Then, it was split in two. Downtown and the area around it became the "City of Stamford", while the rest remained the "Town of Stamford" (the two were governed separately). Finally, right after World War II, the two joined back together and everything just became the "City of Stamford". It did not meet the US Census definition of "City" until 1970, however.

And sometimes it's quirkier. In Ohio, for example, there are no "cities", "towns", or "villages". Just "corporations". And the signs all reflect this. For instance, you'll see "Cleveland - corp. limit", not "city limit", "city line", "town line", or anything like that ever.

But getting out of the legal sense and into a more general sense, it's easy to name several conditions which are necessary (but not sufficient) for somewhere to be a "city". For instance:

1) There needs to be a downtown with tall buildings ("tall" can mean 10 stories or so)

2) There needs to be some form of mass transit

3) Walking needs to sometimes be a practical means of getting around.

Let me comment on Exile's list.

1.There has to be a legible town/city central quote>

Pretty much a given, yes.

2.You should be able to walk to your closest (local) commercial district in maximum 5 minutes. quote>

Define "commercial district". If you mean someplace where there are stores, than this is pretty much true. If you mean offices, not necessarily.

3.There should be a good mixture of all building styles in a city to attract all types of citizens, f.ex. Families, Students, older generations and so on. quote>

Um, what? That can vary, really. If a city is old, this will be the case naturally. If it's brand new, everything is going to be new and so there won't be anywhere near as much variety.

Also, what is this "f.ex." crap? The proper abbreviation for "for example" is "e.g."

4.Local shops quote>

Very descriptive there.

But yes, there should be local shops, not just big box stores and chains.

5.Behind certain buildings there should be room to build office space or workshops, this means building small alleys or openings between buildings that can turn into dark areas where criminals can hide and rats will thrive should be avoided. In Europe certain areas that were dark alleys are turned into walkways with glass roofing and small parks behind and between buildings, which is also a possibility.quote>

Where did this come from? The part about having space behind buildings for offices or "workshops" (what do you mean by that?) makes absolutely no sense. You don't do that. A building can have a backyard, but you're not going to lay things out to have buildings in the middle of a city block with no street frontage. As for the avoiding narrow alleys, it's good advice but it's heeded to various degrees in different places and is not a necessary condition to have a "city".

6.Schools should be placed within walking distances. quote>

In an urban area, a significant number of students will be able and willing to walk to school. But this doesn't mean everyone can or will. For instance, in New York, many private schools employ school buses... and even with public schools, many students will make use of a city bus or the subway to get there if they don't live within a few blocks. Particularly with high schools since those are bigger and fewer, meaning a greater average distance to get to the closest one.

7.NOT more than 150m to the closest playground.quote>

150 m is 492 ft ... or about two blocks. That's a ridiculously short distance. There's no way you're going to have that many playgrounds. It's redundant. Bump this up to maybe five blocks and then I'm more with you.... but I can still think of plenty of places where there isn't a public playground within that distance in New York. I remember being a little kid and walking nine blocks (or what appears to be about 2000 feet, nearly half a mile) with my nonna to get to the playground. And no one in my family ever considered this distance oppressive or too far.

Then again, this was in the Bronx, where most of the time there was that small little backyard for me to play around in. In Manhattan that luxury wouldn't exist and you'd want something closer... and would have it pretty much everywhere.

8.Exciting/Interesting transportation network, with more than one option to get from A to B. quote>

The more than one option part, definitely. But "exciting" and "interesting" are entirely subjective.

9.Moderately narrow streets or pathways, with room for pedestrians and bicycles. quote>

You say "moderately narrow" and then in the same sentence mention having room for things. Which do you want? Narrow streets or streets with room?

It's true that older downtowns tend to have narrower streets since before cars there was little reason to make streets that wide, it would have seemed wasteful. But I wouldn't say having wide boulevards is a bad thing, either. New York's grid has an interesting combination of reatively wide avenues with a few wide cross streets but mostly fairly narrow ones.

Back to Stamford, the downtown area is dominated by wide streets, with most of the narrow streets having been de-mapped to make way for large buildings or eliminated when the huge urban renewal program of the 1970s completely redefined downtown. Compare a map from the 1930s to a map from today. The difference is staggering. One is almost unrecognizable in comparison to the other. Perhaps the most obvious difference is that I-95 isn't there (though the train tracks are). But a whole lot else has changed, too.

10.The houses in your city downtown should have their facades out towards the street, to create a “city room”. quote>

No gated communities downtown. I get this.

11.Parking lots, and parking garages, should be hidden behind buildings and away from the streets. quote>

Good planning, but it isn't always done that way. Downtown Stamford's four public parking garages are all very visible from the street. Three of them are adjacent to it.

And in Manhattan, putting parking garages behind buildings isn't possible since behind the buildding is tha back of the building on the next block. No, you put the parking garage under the building instead (which works even better than behind it, if you ask me. More efficient use of space).

12.   Public institutions or departments should have a street address which is easy to remember. quote>

What address the place has is going to be entirely dependant on where on the street it is.

And, well, having the adress be easy to remember isn't all that important. What's imporant is being able to remember where it is. I couldn't begin to tell you the address of city hall in New York, but I know exactly where it is and how to get there. Same goes for a lot of places, public and private.

13.The city, or city districts (boroughs), should have a certain form of self-government. quote>

With large cities, this is a good idea. With smaller cities it's unnecessary and perhaps even counterproductive. Stamford just has one government, no neighborhood or district governments. But New York does have a boro government for the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, and Staten Island (and each as a boro hall).

[Geronimo 4]

Wow, the world is different! Nicely pointed out Duke.
 
I can see you find this a little weird, but hey, were not all from NY you know!

This is based on an article from a Norwegian magazine, and not statement of a common sence in any way.

Like this:

There needs to be a downtown with tall buildings ("tall" can mean 10 stories or so)quote>

...which is totally different from definitions around here where there are less 10 story building than cities to house them.. 

[hamsterTK 93]

To me the built enviroment is very important of course, and I think places like Phoenix can feel a little "soulless" to even the most hardened suburbanities occasionally. However, to me what makes a city goes beyond that and is related to social and economic functions as well.

Anyways, here's my list:

1. The center of trade in a region.

2. Has a critical mass of diversity that supports services not available elsewhere.

3.public spaces or places part of daily life.

4. Culturally more diverse/wordly/liberal/sophisticated/etc than the surrounding region.

Basically a city is a place that has everything, if it doesn't have it it don't exist.

[how_deep 2]

Yellowguy: In Texas, a 'city' is a civic division, as well as 'census designated place' for unincorporated areas, and the largest divisions, counties. Even villages and towns, if organized with civic governments are classified as 'cities.' The incorporations levy taxes, raise professional police/fire services, and lay (plus maintain) roads and infrastructure. By this definition, a small community that would not even match a larger city's neighborhood population can by a 'city.'

[Muck308 55]

In Pa we have Village Boroughs, Boroughs, Townships, and Cities. I grew up in McCandless Township-pop. appox. 35,000. It is 6 square miles. Boroughs are usually smaller, and village boroughs are smaller still. Franklin Park Borough is adjacent to McCandless, with a size of about 3.5 square miles. Pop. was 5,000 in 1990, but is much bigger now, about 20,000 I think. We have many cities in Pennsylvania. Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Erie, Harrisburg, Scranton, Butler, Johnstown, Washington, Uniontown, Lancaster. Many municipalities are cities. Philadelphia, the city, is also Philadelphia county. It's a city AND a county. The only one in PA. Erie is a city within a county of the same name, but there are other municipalities in the county as well.

But then you have NYC. Five Boros incorpoarted into one city. But each boro is actually their own county. Which is odd. So you have five counties making up one massive city. Pretty sweet huh? I love New York City. As my father will tell you, there used to be a big sign in Brooklyn that read...

Wecome to Brooklyn. Fourth largest city in the United States, if they would leave us alone.

Brooklyn is Kings County. Manhattan is New York County. Queens is Queens County. Staten Island is Richmond County. The Bronx is Bronx County. Five counties, one city.

Every state is different I guess. To me, a place with 35,000 people that is in a region of millions is not a city. But put that same place with 35,000 people in an isolated area, it seems like a city to me. But thankfully we already got the straight dope from Duke, so all I offer are opinions.

[HuskerDude 12]

Outside of the legal definitions, I think a city is defined by density rather than population. When I think of a "city" I think of an urban center with mixed-use development, plenty of ground floor, street facing retail (i.e. not malls) with offices or residences above. There needs to be a variety of shops (catering both to neighborhood needs as well as tourists), restaurants, hotels, bars, nightlife, etc. Tall buildings are totally irrelevant. In fact, when you look at a lot of middle American "downtowns" and you just see a handful of skyscrapers surrounded by blocks of parking lots, you're not really seeing a city, just really tall suburban office parks, IMO.

[metarvo 711]

In SC terms, the number "10,000" has stuck with me because it was the population one had to reach to have a "city" in SC1 (that's right, the ancient SimCity).  As far as reality goes, I tend to think of a "city" as having a population of 50,000 or more.  Of course, that's just an unofficial number that I have assigned the "city" designation to.  Population isn't even the only factor that defines a "city" for me.  If a municipality has lots of fancy chain restaurants and has a large shopping mall, or if there are skyscrapers present, then I think of it as a "city."  If the biggest thing going is First National Bank at the intersection of 1st and Main, then I think of the place as a "town" instead.

[Shadow Assassin 336]

Ideally, a city should be:

- Self-sufficient (it should be able to look after itself)

- Has the majority of its inhabitants working inside the city limits (greater than 70%)

- Has a good transportation system - people should be able to travel on a motorway or something similar. Public transport is also a must.

These three criteria (the second one is especially important) are essential for a city to be called a city in its own right, rather than just a glorified dormitory suburb (eg. Wollongong and the Central Coast have sufficient population to be called cities in their own right (CC - 450k, 'Gong - 200k), but they are essentially large dormitory suburbs to Sydney as most people work in the Sydney CBD and surrounds)

[Deathtoall 28]

I think the term is more based on population as you would still call Mumbai (India) a city even though it lacks alot of what Exile believes a city needs to have. I believe a city is a population of over 100,000. Town is between 10,000-50,000 and in bewteen these to is large town. For it to be classified as city though it has to be it's own seperate identity. Like where i live in the North East of Sydney is around 300,000 people but we are not a city becuase we are just dormitory suburbs really, aswell as a few other factors. Like Shadow (Welcome back fellow Sydney-sider ) said Wollongong and the Central Coast could be Cities in their own right but they are just the sprawl from Sydney, just lifted a few clicks north and south and so on. Newcastle is definetly a City (Population near 800,000)

But thse could be based on the fact that i have spent my whole life growing up in a city of over 3 and a half million people so calling a 10,000 strong place a city to me seems kinda strange. For a country like Ireland, Dublin is really the one-horse city (Groan!) Cork is a city as you said over 200,000 people, after that you drop to 70,000. So two cities but Dublin is like the whole centre of the country so i would bend the rules and say that Cork would be a large town. I have actually be to Ireland (not just Dublin but all over) so my argument has some crediblilty.

Tokyo is a Conurbation, it's Tokyo-Yokohama now.

Conurbation is where city gets so large it merges with another city. Just look at the west side of Tokyo bay, the development goes the whole way to Yokohama.

[rubberduck 3]

In California, as in Texas according to how_deep, we have Cities and Census Designated Places. Cities have a city government, fire department, and police department. CDPs have no local government and rely on their county for fire and police (Sheriff). I live in a CDP with a population of 4,800, but just a few miles from me is a city of 10,000. Just a few miles further is another CDP (not city!) of 25,000. So it really, at least in CA, depends on city government, police department, and fire department...not really on population.

[DavidBrown 0]

In the UK, a 'City' is a legal status and has nothing to do with population, density etc.

So, you have places like St Davids in Wales which has a population of less than 2,000, Wells in south-west England with just over 10,000 and Ripon in Yorkshire with nearly 16,000. None of these places are major commercial centres, nor are they at major transport interchanges or in commuter areas.

One common myth in the UK is that a city is a place with a Cathedral, however there are cities such as Preston and Newport which don't.

[PhilsCafe 8]

Here we have two kinds of cities, historical cities and 'modern' cities. Historically villages became cities when they had a city wall and I think a market place, but I'm not sure about that. Today, villages need at least 10.000 inhabitants to become a city, but they not necessarily become one. So there are cities with only 6,000 inhabitants, which are historical cities, and villages with 25,000 inhabitants who didn't want to become a city. So, it really depends on the people if they consider their community to be a city or not...

[patriots_1228 51]

taking what duke said, which i wholeheartedly agree with:

1) needs some sort of midrise/high rise section

2) mass transit

3) walkability

mine:

4) character-Cities like charlotte and atlanta aren't really cities in the sense that they have no "non-physical" aspects. sorry, that was worded poorly but what im trying to say is a city isnt just phsyical things like people and and skyscrapers, its mental things like pride,culture, and character

5) distinct districts- IMO, a big city is a city with multiple cores, each being linked together to form one gigantic urban center. For example, new york has the boroughs, and boston has neighborhoods like the north end, back bay, financial district, south end,southie, etc. all connected by various parks and highways and buildings etc.

[ExiL3 10]

yelllowguy88:

Here in Norway there are no longer any rules as to what a city should have, though earlier it would not be a city if it didn't have a postoffice, local firedept. police and doctors office.quote>

if youre thinking of before that even, it depended on trading power...

Duke87:

If you read the whole post on SC4D, I said there that it was a translation of a Norwegian article I found years ago at school. I also said the article does not  talk about 13 things "that define a city", it says 13 things that a city must have to be "perfect". The title again, is a translation...

about f.ex crap, it was years ago, we use e.g here aswell, guess I did not think about it back then.

4. Local shops; read the descripion stated under in that same post.

7. Not to sound disrespecitve, but I am pretty sure the Bronx is not a "perfect" city/district, and that is what the article is about. The 150m rule is of course an impossible rule for many urban cities, but then again it is meant as the best possible distance. I don't have the original copy of the article anymore, but I am sure they mean that a playground can be as little as a small piece of open grass and mayhaps even just a swing...

9. You've grown up in the US, and this article is written from a European point of view. In moderatly narrow streets we meen streets that have room for just enough cars, but gives the population the possibility to ride their bikes to work, or walk. That might sound strange to you, but your cities are built so that you can drive everywhere, on broad streets. That is not the case in most european cities, and yes riding your bike to work is both better for you, the city and the environment.

- again duke, the article was a translation of an article from a norwegian scientific magazine, originally written years ago. If I had the article today I would rewrite the post, that is not the case however. The article is also about what makes a city "perfect", and NOT what makes a city a city. Few cities are considered perfect, it is just a list of thoughts made by scientists and planners, not actual rules.

- thanks for your thoughts on the article though, just make  sure to read it more thoroughly the next time

[binobi 2]

To continue what DavidBrown said here in the UK city is a legal definition, until fairly recently settlements were classified depending on if they had key civic amenities, thus;

A village must have a church and therefore be the centre of a parish, if there is no church it is considered to be a hamlet.

A town had to have a marketplace, think medieval square not high street.

And indeed to be a city it was necessary to have a cathedral and therefore be the administrative centre of a diocese.

This however is no longer the case as many large towns have now been given city status, Brighton and Hove springs to mind as it is where I live, no cathedral but now has city status.

I believe that Wells in Somerset is the smallest city in the UK with a population of only a couple of thousand, but being the centre of the diocese of Bath and Wells it has the status of city.

This old method of classifying settlements was probably rendered useless when the Church of England was formed, this meant large cities often had two cathedrals and overlapping diocese of Catholic and Protestant which weren't allowed to have the same name. I am most familiar with Bristol which has it's own cathedral for Protestants and another one in Clifton, a suburb of Bristol for the Catholics, but nobody would suggest that Clifton was a city in it's own right.

[sumwonyuno 42]

I live in a place with almost a million people, where there are legally no such things as cities or even towns.

Under the Hawaii Constitution, there are only the State and its counties.  There are four counties that govern various islands.  The City & County of Honolulu controls the whole island of Oahu (600 sq. miles) and all of the other uninhabited islands in the Northwest Hawaiian Islands.  The US Census Bureau prefers to categorize Honolulu as a Census Designated Place.  It breaks up the urban core (375,000) and calls it Honolulu proper, and the rest of Oahu (530,000) as the metro.  This artificially "lowers" the population and underscores Honolulu when it is ranked to other municipalities.

Outside of these official terms, everyone just calls the skyscraper forest of downtown Honolulu to Waikiki as "the city" or "in town".  All of the other areas on the island are considered "neighborhoods".  The major places on the neighbor islands are "towns".

My definition of cities are places where people are attracted to because they have major amenities and jobs that other areas in the vicinity do not have, and at a bigger scale than other surrounding urban centers.

The reason why that is my definition is because "city" is quite subjective.  I do agree with the attributes other people have said, but I think HuskerDude has the attribute I definitely agree with: density.  (Though again, Honolulu is underscored because of the two mountain ranges on the island).  There needs to be a substantial amount of people in a concentrated area.  This is what differentiates places from one another.  Where one place does seem alive with commerce, activity and movement, and another that is by comparison sparse, barren and lifeless

[MooMix1 2]

In Massachusetts, if it has a mayor, it's a city. If it has a selectman and council or whatever, it's a town.

[torontotransit 2]

"City" designations can be screwed up in some cases. As is the case of the two "things" bordering Toronto to the north.

For example, the "City" of Vaughan - pop. 238,866

And the "Town" of Markham - pop. 261,573

ON a side note, Markham is a much more urban city, while Vaughan is a few old towns surrounded by kilometers upon kilometers of sprawl.

I find New York's designation very interesting, with several counties making a gigantic city.

Back on topic, a city must have:

-A public library

-Most people work within city limits

-Buildings taller than 10 stories, yes

-In the downtown, the streets are on a grid making it easier to walk anywhere

-Some public transit

-High-ish density

-NO big box stores

-NOT master planned

-Must have some small shops and local bars

-Wide sidewalks

[Martin892 4]

I'm from Holland, and all the rules U explained for cities to be a city, are only appliable to a large area consisting of hundreds of urban centres we call the Randstad (Edge City). Its not a real conurbation at all (it exists of several conurbations) but it fits to some criteria for a metropolitan area. If you drive around you don't really get the experience getting around in a 6.5 million inhabitant city, but economically, expecially with regards to international business, it's in fact 1 big city serving an area stretching from Belgium to western Germany (Rotterdam port is the largest in Europe for example caring for a lot of goods transported to the German industrial areas). If you calculate population density it also approaches population densities like the entire Californian bay area (because everyone there lives in separate housing suburbs).

[Jay Ess 15]

really, the answer depends on where you are. Let's take the United States, Montenegro and the Republic of Turkey for example. In the United States, a city is defined as a municipality with an incorporated government. In Montenegro, a city is considered a portion of the county (montenegrin: okrug, I didnt have a better word for it) which is urbanized, in which the definition means a population density of over 1,500/km, or something of the sort. In Turkey, a city is considered a municipality of 200,000 plus population.

city is just a WORD and what it means depends on where you live.

[djf3591 1]

1st off, I totally disagree that a city has no big box store. NYC has big box stores within its limits (Marshalls, etc.).

These are my guidelines as to what makes a city:

-The form of government (a mayor with alderman or selectmen)

-Its regional impact and notoriety (Ex: Manchester, NH, Nashua, NH, and Keene, NH. All three have a large impact on their respective regions even though Manchester and Nashua are only a few miles away from each other (and both are the state's largest cities). The both have professional sports teams and they both receive visitors from around the state and from Massachusetts for work and commerce. Keene is slightly different. With a population of about 25,000, it is located in a rural part of the state and draws in people from all across southwestern NH and southern Vermont for work. It is a city b/c it was incorporated as one 150 years ago.)

-A formal downtown (There has to be a designated downtown area that includes a city hall and sees a large part of commercial traffic)

-Size matters (a "city" generally has more people and jobs than the surrounding area)

-A city provides many services to its residents and has formal departments for each (education, trash, public works, assessment, police, etc.)

-I agree with Patriots_1228 that a city must have distinct districts

-A city must have its own parks system (not just state parks or county parks)

There are probably a few other things that could go in this list, but those stuck out the most.

P.S.: Like MooMix1 stated about Massachusetts, NH is pretty much the same.

[Rockstone 0]

I'm not sure. I live in the City of Wintersprings (population 30,000) in Florida.

I consider every zone of Seminole County a city. (Sanford, Ovideo, WinterSprings) etc...