Rip Van Winkle syndrome

[JaxCoJazz 3]

Hey all, I've finally started looking through Simtropolis again after lord only knows how long, and I seem to be getting the impression that a lot of major people left the site. And when I dug through even further, I got the impression that it was because of a big argument over something that was rather petty in the long run.

Now, I've had to register to about three completely different fansites just to get some of the basic stuff that used to be available through Simtropolis because the people who left this site took all their stuff with them, leaving the poor hapless people who hate registering to more sites than should be necessary (people like me) fuming and frustrated and more lost than last year's Easter eggs.

Seriously. I have to stumble around through at least ten different links for half an hour to find just one bloody file to download in less than a minute that I could have easily hunted down in just two URLs for five minutes via the "old" Simtropolis. It's frustrating as all heck.

Why, people? What's the point in it all?

[spectrumtech 15]

Well, many people have left over what you called a petty argument.  You could not be closer to the truth.  Pegasus has left due to a squabble over seawalls, and all the rest have left under similar circumstances.

PS- Nice to see someone here has decent grammar and spelling.

[patriots_1228 51]

If person A spends a month making a BAT for you, the least you could do is register at their site to download it.

[JaxCoJazz 3]

A squabble over sea walls!? O___o;

That absolutely has to be the stupidest reason to pack up and leave that I have EVER heard, and I've heard and seen some pretty stupid stuff after being a deviantART member for a couple of years and making a few friends that have themselves seen the whole gamut of online immaturity.

Honestly, if someone is going to throw such a hissy fit over sea walls (which I personally don't see the point of having in a city anyway), they're apparently not that mature in their mindset at all.

And I do a lot of online roleplay and chatting, and I write stories and poetry. Good grammar is a prerequisite and comes with the package.

[SimHoTToDDy 2,939]

From what I gathered, there was a GIGANTIC dispute of dependencies that split much of the community. I have seen BATs of the STEX that were rated lower and poor comments given by (I shall not name names) because (I shall not not name names) put the whole lot as a building (ie. no props, and consequently, no possibility of dependencies). There were at least a few LONG topics about this debate. Both sides were right of course, but rather than get over it and move on, a large part of ST moved on. We (or at least I) wish it could be like the old days, ST as a single fantastic Sim comunity.

[wwetom1 831]

What was the seawall squabble about exactly? I never knew Peg had left?

[JaxCoJazz 3]

Oooh. Dependancies. Those are a pain. But I won't go into that topic of discussion. That's another issue entirely.

[purpledaddy 6]

But everybody who's stayed or come back seems to get along hunky dory now!

[His Divine Hand 244]

FYI, Pegasus, while having his own website, still releases he creations on the STEX, it just takes a bit longer.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: wwetom1

What was the seawall squabble about exactly? quote>

The seawall squabble happened elsewhere.   We don't need to talk about it here.

I never knew Peg had left?quote>

As was mentioned earlier, he still posts on the STEX.

Originally posted by: JaxCoJazz

Oooh. Dependancies. Those are a pain. But I won't go into that topic of discussion. That's another issue entirely.quote>

There is an article, The Dependency Debate, for anyone who is interested in dependencies.

[Cockatoo 2,262]

JaxCoJazz, yea, it can be a pain. I don't understand a lot of the issues that caused this, but I do understand very clearly that at the moment, the SC4 community as a whole, is split in two.

Seems as nobody has really answered your question 'Why, people? What's the point in it all?' I will try my best to explain things from my perspective, keeping in mind that I was an outsider at the time of these most of events.

It is my belief that all this was set in motion sometime in mid 2006 stretching into early 2007, about the same time I was starting to become an active member here on Simtropolis. The community was getting to a stage where it was so massive and diverse that sub-communities were almost starting to form inside the greater community. BAT teams, groups of people posting CJ's in unions, modding projects, community projects - all going on under the same roof, and as you can imagine, these groups of people can only co-exist peacefully for so long before they are going to have their differences when it comes to how things should be done and what rules should apply where ect...

Eventually, after many arguments, things boiled over and unfortunately a lot of very talented people got hurt and left Simtropolis for other (one in particular) fan sites, and they took their creations with them, and for what, petty differences, STUPID THINGS!

Now things have settled down in the last 12 months. People have accepted what has happened and moved on, but the rift is still very much in place. Ha, it's almost like we've got our very own little cold war. People leaving one site for another and then refusing to come back or even talk to people on the other site. Even when I visit other sites (someone who was not even around at this time of all this), I feel as if I'm getting the cold shoulder from some members there just because I'm mostly active on Simtropolis and have uploaded to the STEX or something.

Nothing would make me happier in terms of this situation than to see people like the BSC team and Jeronij come back to Simtrop and just forget about what's happened in the past and for people at both sites to grow up and just get over it, because I think it severely restricts what we can accomplish as a whole, but because this is the internets, and the drama never ends on the internets!... it would take a miracle to pull that off.

[purpledaddy 6]

Gotta love history lessons! Long live our computer games and the people who play them and or improve them!

[Goin2Chicago 4]

At first I thought I had missed this whole thing on my hiatus but now I remember the scuffle between the one BAT team that started with a B and the other one that started with a B lol. I guess it all boiled over though. Well it really stinks that that had to happen because the way the site used to be was so awesome, I would come on here everyday and try to achieve so much in my game. But now I don't play. But I still enjoy looking at the new Cjs and BATs.

[Meg 368]

Originally posted by: Cockatoo-210893

 The community was getting to a stage where it was so massive and diverse that sub-communities were almost starting to form inside the greater community. BAT teams, groups of people posting CJ's in unions, modding projects, community projects - all going on under the same roof, and as you can imagine, these groups of people can only co-exist peacefully for so long before they are going to have their differences when it comes to how things should be done and what rules should apply where ect...quote>

That is very well said and very accurate. 

During those conversations about "how things should be done and what rules should apply where", some people decided they wanted an environment that isn't available here so they went elsewhere.

[IDS2 3,453]

Yeah, like said Peg has his own site (he did already but he uploaded here as well) and the BSC left partly due to dependancies (when you make your bats and use your own dependancies, you have to have those too and were all uploaded separately.) THe BSC is now at sc4devotion. Some members left simply because they wanted to make moe PG kind of content, which is often rejected here. So there are 3 main sites...Simpeg, Devotion and of course here.

[Eastwinn 6]

It's a shame, really. E-Drama does no good to begin with.

[ILL Tonkso 1,239]

Believe me, BAT politics are not fun, you do not want to get involved. I always tried to get along with everyone but unfortunately that can't always happen. Conflicts in interests. I almost always put my buildings on the white tile base texture because I like the way it matches with the pavements on the road textures. My lot would seamlessly match up with it, unfortunately I received a lot of crap for it and instead of being asked to change it, was told to change it. I didn't of course, my work, my way. Petty isn't it.

[IDS2 3,453]

Yeah, it's extremely lame when you think about it when people fight over a BAT...for crying out loud, you hissy fitters are whining over a game-Simcity4! If fighting over simcity is not enough, they have to fight over its buildings "how dare you bat that I was just gonna uplload it u stole from me mods plz removve!!!!!!!!!!!!!111" I always think to myself "shut up, it's a game!"  From then on they have this LAME NERD sticker on their foreheads. i DONT GET IT...when you think about how dopey fighting over some splines and textures is then you understand the scale of this issue. People should at least get along over the least petty things...

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

Members are welcome to use this thread for civil considerate and polite discussion. 

Members are not welcome to make personal comments and remarks against any member or part of the SC community. 

If that is not possible for any particular member then, they are by all means welcome to refrain from clicking reply to topic...  

Anyone is welcome to play here as long as they play nicely.

[JSNK000 1]

It goes like this....sometimes somebody is really,really good at something and they decide they have the right to lord over people because of that skill.

This is supposed to be a CO-opperative community where a happy medium is established but I think some people perhaps got too full of themselves.

Some folks didn't get their way and took the ball and went home.

No other word for it than..sad.

As for dependencies.....I am sorry but if I have to follow 19 additional links to use your 3 floor office building...[edited ]

Originally posted by: Cockatoo-210893

 The community was getting to a stage where it was so massive and diverse that sub-communities were almost starting to form inside the greater community. BAT teams, groups of people posting CJ's in unions, modding projects, community projects - all going on under the same roof, and as you can imagine, these groups of people can only co-exist peacefully for so long before they are going to have their differences when it comes to how things should be done and what rules should apply where ect...

Originally posted by: Skigeek

That is very well said and very accurate. 

During those conversations about "how things should be done and what rules should apply where", some people decided they wanted an environment that isn't available here so they went elsewhere. quote>

[Haljackey 17,441]

Originally posted by: JaxCoJazz

Why, people? What's the point in it all?quote>

Why?  That's the perfect question to ask, and its so simple to ask too.  However, the answer is not so simple.  Here is my perspective of why this happened.

Like Cockatoo-210893, I was starting to become an active member during these said events.  I was an avid follower of some outstanding, legendary projects that had such a rich, collective history that I thought nothing would break it apart.  I was wrong.  As the site became larger and larger, acquiring  more members and files, the site started to become slow.  Some members, including those developing these projects that I followed, seemed to show signs of stress in their posts.  Every week there would be more and more newbies making demanding posts in their threads stating things like "I want (this) to be made.", and asking questions that have been answered dozens of times such as "When will (this) be released?", or "Will (this) be included?"  People just got so frustrated with all the clutter in the threads and that grew over time. 

One of the major "tipping" points I noticed came when the Mod Squad: Transport was ready to release a new version of the NAM.  However, the NAM cannot be released on the STEX because it exceeds 10MB in size and had to be uploaded in the modds and downloads section of the site, a place where only drik (the webmaster) can upload files.  Plenty of advance time for the release was given to ensure there were no problems with the upload.  Unfortanutely, drik was sick at the time and was not active for quite a while.  This made many people angry and the idea for separation was gaining momentum from many major members.  No one person can be blamed for this.  Eventually, everything brewed into a massive melting pot that encompassed everything from mods to bats, teams, even city journals to move away from the site.

The Sim City community was split.  Alliances were made against other Sim City "factions" and it was tough to get along.  Finally, this hit me hard as my favorite project, the Rural Highway (RHW) announced that it too was leaving ST.  This was the final straw for me and I, among with many others were in a wreck.  Some were outraged that these legendary projects were moving to a "sanctuary"; free from newbies making pointless posts, loading times, and all that jazz.  A heated discussion took place HERE that saw the withdrawl of the project's founder (who has not made another post since) and disappearances of many of ST's beloved members.  After the ashes settled, I decided to take a stand and keep the project alive by being active in both sites, bringing info back here.  Some liked what I did, some didn't.  After some more debate, harsh action was taken at first but the smoke settled soon after.

Nowadays, the vast majority of people have accepted what happened and put it behind them. Inter-site communications are at an all-time high and relations seem to be getting better and better as time passes on.   However, there are still some that live in the past and continue to hold grudges against one another.  I hope, that some day, that these members find a way to forgive and make this community whole again.  I patiently await their return with open arms.

I hope that wasn't too long for you to read.  Now that you have seen it from my perspective, I hope you understand that it had an effect on every member in a unique way.  I have learned a valuable lesson from this whole thing, and that is that we must treat every member as if they are a person because, the fact is, that they are indeed persons.  Sure, this is a cyber-community, but it is accessed by real people.  Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Again, this is my opinion, and I mean absolutely no offence to anyone, any site, or anything else that caused this.

Best,

-Haljackey

[jplumbley 5]

Originally posted by: haljackey Originally posted by: JaxCoJazz

One of the major "tipping" points I noticed came when the Mod Squad: Transport was ready to release a new version of the NAM.  However, the NAM cannot be released on the STEX because it exceeds 10MB in size and had to be uploaded in the modds and downloads section of the site, a place where only drik (the webmaster) can upload files.  Plenty of advance time for the release was given to ensure there were no problems with the upload.  Unfortanutely, drik was sick at the time and was not active for quite a while.  This made many people angry and the idea for separation was gaining momentum from many major members.  No one person can be blamed for this.  Eventually, everything brewed into a massive melting pot that encompassed everything from mods to bats, teams, even city journals to move away from the site.

The Sim City community was split.  Alliances were made against other Sim City "factions" and it was tough to get along.  Finally, this hit me hard as my favorite project, the Rural Highway (RHW) announced that it too was leaving ST.  This was the final straw for me and I, among with many others were in a wreck.  Some were outraged that these legendary projects were moving to a "sanctuary"; free from newbies making pointless posts, loading times, and all that jazz.  A heated discussion took place HERE that saw the withdrawl of the project's founder (who has not made another post since) and disappearances of many of ST's beloved members.  After the ashes settled, I decided to take a stand and keep the project alive by being active in both sites, bringing info back here.  Some liked what I did, some didn't.  After some more debate, harsh action was taken at first but the smoke settled soon after.

quote>

 

To be blatanly honest...

The move of the NAM Team, has actually been something good for the community as a whole.  As a result of making SC4Devotion our home, we have had much more control over our own threads than we ever had here.  Our Private Boards have become a much more creative out out as they are much more versitile compared to what we have here and due to this we have had much, much more technical discussions and even some amazing experimental projects that I am unable to discuss (dont want to cause a riot LOL).  One aspect that shows where we have been able to use some of the features at SC4D to the full extent is by using the first post of a "Stickied" project thread as a Readme/FAQ which has stemmed alot of those newbie questions that get asked on every page of the thread, etc.

The NAM Team has flourished and our projects are getting stronger, wider and more comprehensive.

This is not meant as an attack on ST, Im just saying that it has actually been a benefit for the team and by comparision to the entire community because you get a better product in the end.

Yes, there were frictions, but in reality there are no lasting grudges.

The members of the NAM Team, like anyone else have a limited amount of time to spend on SC4.  We could spend that time making new stuff, or dealing with complaints or dealing with support issues.  We have decided individually where we will update our projects, not as a result of what happened but due to the amount of time we have to spend in the community.  Please remember what is best for us as a Team is best for the Community as a whole, and our goal is to provide the community with the best product we possibly can.

[Edited quote formatting]

[Hamish 1,370]

I don't mind the move.

I have to agree with jplumbley, it is allot more organized over at SC4D.

But I do feel like Simtrop. needs a big project of its own. Because there are no projects that I really follow over here, they all seem to be at SC4D.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

The moderator would like to thank folks for keeping their cool, in what could easily turn out to be an exercise in judging the relative trajectorial distances of urinary outflow.

Diversity is what makes the world, which the SC community is a part of, a more interesting place to live.

[simzebu 20]

Originally posted by: abcvs

The moderator would like to thank folks for keeping their cool, in what could easily turn out to be an exercise in judging the relative trajectorial distances of urinary outflow.

Diversity is what makes the world, which the SC community is a part of, a more interesting place to live.

quote>

Relative trajectorial distances of.... OH! Hehe, nicely put.

Anyway, I've gotten used to clicking the SC4D link on my homepage when I go online, in addition to the other ones I click. I do still visit ST, though now it seems to be more from nostalgia of my nearly 3.5 years here than because of following anything. (After all, this was the first site I was ever active on. When I started here, I had dialup. ) Though, the STEX does come through with something every once in a while.

But I do think a lot of things were lost in the split. I think a lot of features in the RHW seem to have disappeared following its move. But then, that could just be from the technical problems that tend to follow these major projects.

[Haljackey 17,441]

Originally posted by: jplumbley

The move of the NAM Team, has actually been something good for the community as a whole.  As a result of making SC4Devotion our home, we have had much more control over our own threads than we ever had here.

The NAM Team has flourished and our projects are getting stronger, wider and more comprehensive.

Yes, there were frictions, but in reality there are no lasting grudges.quote>

I agree.  It was a logistical move that, at first, was questioned by many as "separatist".  The fact of the matter is that it is still part of the SC4 community, and it is best located to suit the needs of this community.  I have seen that modding boards need to be kept neat and tidy for them to work at peak efficiency, because our free time is limited.  SC4D's format is able to provide this level of organization (a stickied post at the top of each thread page, stating the details of the project and answering many "newbie" questions is one way the site is better organized.)

Of course, this is just one example of what happened.  Other movements had quite a different effect and I will not go into detail because I simply don't know all the facts.

---

Originally posted by: simzebu

But I do think a lot of things were lost in the split.

quote>

Well, a lot of things were lost in the split.  This includes projects, teams, relations, members, etc.  It was a tear, and content on that tear was lost.  However, that tear has been healing quite nicely, but it will never heal to what it was.

Best,

-Haljackey

[Neddiggis 1]

Originally posted by: simzebu

Originally posted by: abcvs

But I do think a lot of things were lost in the split. I think a lot of features in the RHW seem to have disappeared following its move. But then, that could just be from the technical problems that tend to follow these major projects.

quote>

quote>

Actually, it worked out that a lot of stuff was saved due to the 'split'.  When ST was hacked recently a lot of information was lost from the site.  Fortunatly a good portion of the information was now available at SC4D and Pegs.  A lot of members are active at all 3 sites although naturally many people prefer one to another.

[edited to fix quote problem]

[GMT 389]

i feel like this threat here is going to tear old wounds open... I hope I'm wrong.

there were arguments between certain people and groups which I have witnessed, and they seemed to be unable to agree on a solution, so some left and started their own business.

to me, it doesn't really matter since I know where to get their stuff, and in addition, it's more or less their private issues so I shouldn't and doesn't care.

And then again, the ST is such a big big community with many many sub-clubs and after all the place most of us started from scratch and evolved a lot... it's not always for the bad of either comunity when some people leave so they can really do it their way when they feel like restrained here or don't like the climate no more or feel like really creating their own community or whatever.

take the devotion, imho the best example that leaving the nest can't be a bad decission, for several reasons.

But after all, we're still one community, no matter how the site is called, and it really doesn't matter which quarrels happened or will happen, there's always this one thing that binds us all together, and this is the reason why we all met each other in the first place. that people or groups evolve and leave to make their own little or big room is just the most normal thing on earth, so why even bothering about it?

[Patricius Maximus 236]

In political terms, the movement of modders to SC4D would be termed a 'secession'. I am a believer in the right for a group to have their own place, but the reasoning is rather mysterious.

Somehow, this 'secession' caused a cold war of sorts between ST and SC4D, but tensions have settled down into a détente.

Personally, I think that the modders have a good place at SC4Devotion, and operational efficiency has increased for the NAM and other teams. I hold an account over there, and frequently post in the NAM threads. However, I consider ST my 'primary' account, and SC4D my 'secondary'.

I see no problem with two sites coexisting with each other.

[jplumbley 5]

Originally posted by: simzebu

But I do think a lot of things were lost in the split. I think a lot of features in the RHW seem to have disappeared following its move. But then, that could just be from the technical problems that tend to follow these major projects.

quote>

 

I dont think this is the time, nor the place for us to be getting into things "Lost" in the transition.  If you think there was something lost in the transition during the RHW Project you are seriously mistaken.  Here is what you may "think" was lost, but has really been re-evaluated and undergoing major re-developements in their implementation.

Alex (Tarkus) was working on the MIS and Elevated RHW at the time.  Since that time, Alex and I have had nurmerous discussions on how to implement these additions in a much, much more user friendly way.  Puzzle Pieces have the ability to cause CTDs when being placed, so they are a type of implementation that is not entirely desirable as a first choice.  Around the time of the NAM Team's decision to make SC4D its primary home, Alex and I were in the begining stages of creating the Street Addon Mon (SAM) and we were becoming to realize that the RHW could benefit largely from what we were learning from the SAM.  You may have noticed that only 7 or 8 months later we would have a new RHW.

What was different about the new RHW?

Well, it was redesigned so that we now have "Starter Pieces" rather than side-by-side textures.  Textures now have a new IID scheme, which took the most time to reorganize.  The new RHW-MIS was included not as puzzle pieces but as a draggable option.  RHW-6 was introduced and much more options beyond that of RHW v12.

So Im not sure what was left out or lost when we changed homes.

Unless.....  Unless you mean, the leaving of qurlix from the RHW Team.  Well, that is something of a different story.  In the months leading upto and including the decision to make a new home, qurlix made alot of posts about a RHW v17 with RHW-10.  Well to let you in on a little secret, even those who were part of the developement team never saw a single file from qurlix on this RHW v17.  Due to this we have never been able to help him with his work, let alone continue it, leaving us to do all the leg work from scratch while still working on the other things we have been working on.  The actual fact of the matter is most of us on the developement team have been left wondering if the things qurlix ever showed or talked about ever existed beyond an experimental stage.  From what I have seen, we are much closer today to a RHW-10 than we were when qurlix showed his phantom "RHW v17".

I think it is time that everyone realizes the NAM Team made a new home not for "political" reasons but for the good of the Team.  Because what is good for the Team is what is best for the Community as a whole, without a Team, there will be no new updates.... But Im sure you guys realize this.