Urbs Urbis - 100+ Supporters Already

[S_C_mbody 0]

Yes, Mike has done it again. His simcity fansite, www.simcities.com , has launched Urbs Urbis, an all new, extremely successful, attempt to re-create a SimCity 5.

www.dev.simcities.com - By the community and for the community.

[croxis 150]

Why do I have to register for *another* forum just to look and lurk? I HATE it when form masters do this. At the very least integrate an openid login

[onlyplace4 603]

Just to put the record straight ... the site is not a "new" attempt .. it is simply a site to host the extremely successful ST1000 discussion and hopefully give the project an organised forum in which to discuss the game, it's mechanics etc., and get everything up and running smoothly (or as smoothly as possible).

[aking88 7]

I give you credit for doing this. Altough i support tilted mill, im not convinced by their vision for simcity.

[TheOneThird 1]

Coming up with a lot of cool ideas != developing a game. If this project is to have even a remote chance of success, you should throw out all the ideas and find lots of programmers. Once the game is able to draw a flat plane on which to build, you'll appreciate how difficult game development is and your expectations will get a whole lot more realistic.

[BurroDiablo 222]

We have 2 programmers at the moment but obviously we're constantly hunting for more... It's mostly at its 'Idea's and Discussion' phase anyway so theres no point rushing into things

[toxicpiano 125]

Well I can model using MAX...

[Goldfish4209 9]

And I'll be your knowitall nerd kid...

[LivingInThePast 364]

And I just registered!

[dedgren 830]

And I'm just going to keep on playing SC4.  Why fix something...

...and I don't think that folks have a clear grasp of how truly difficult what's being talked about here truly will be...

...that ain't broke?

David

[jgehrts 18]

I agree with David. Dreaming big is one thing, but dreaming big and *realistically* is quite another. What's happening here is the former, not the latter. You need a staff of artists, programmers, testers... with lots of knowledge in specific areas (building styles, UI, intelligence for transportation, and the list goes on and on)

[RooRocz 0]

Originally posted by: dedgren And I'm just going to keep on playing SC4.  Why fix something...

...and I don't think that folks have a clear grasp of how truly difficult what's being talked about here truly will be...

...that ain't broke?

Davidquote>

This ought to clear that up. If we have a free software version of Sim City, we can do so much more with it.

[BurroDiablo 222]

Originally posted by: dedgren And I'm just going to keep on playing SC4.  Why fix something...

...and I don't think that folks have a clear grasp of how truly difficult what's being talked about here truly will be...

...that ain't broke?

Davidquote>

SC4 IS broke though... theres things about SC4 that get us down and annoy us... i'm sure anybody with a plugin folder over 1GB will have told you about the random crashes SC4 suffers... and untill EA release the Source code (wich will be NEVER), those problems will never actually be resolved.

SC4 could be alot better... and EA are scwandering their Sim City time away with this stupid Sim City Societies game, when really, they should be focusing on a real SEQUEL to Sim City 4!

This may sound ambitious... but this game WILL be the (unofficial) sequel to Sim City 4...

[Andy80586 1]

Originally posted by: El Burro

SC4 IS broke though... theres things about SC4 that get us down and annoy us... i'm sure anybody with a plugin folder over 1GB will have told you about the random crashes SC4 suffers... and untill EA release the Source code (wich will be NEVER), those problems will never actually be resolved.

SC4 could be alot better... and EA are scwandering their Sim City time away with this stupid Sim City Societies game, when really, they should be focusing on a real SEQUEL to Sim City 4!

This may sound ambitious... but this game WILL be the (unofficial) sequel to Sim City 4...quote>

It is ambitious, but then again, so was this, and it has come quite a long way from 3 years ago when I just got started modding it. Before that, I was quite active here, contributing stuff like improved avenue/road textures I remember doing once that I think got incorporated into the NAM. Of course, Vice City (VC) and SC4 are 2 games almost polar opposites of each other, but their differences fade rapidly as soon as you start modding the map.

The original goal I had in mind was taking a city (and eventually a region but it never got off the ground) from SC4 and converting it to run as a VC mod (merge SimCopter into Streets of SimCity and update it to make it work with SC4 and you get what I had in mind). State of Liberty only does half of that: the program I wrote lets you add tons of objects to the map, but I have no way of extracting terrain data or anything else. Basically, one proprietary platform + another proprietary platform by another company = a lot of logistic issues.

If we get Urbs Urbis right (which I plan to contribute as much as I can to the source code and simulation logic), not only are we off the proprietary platform issue, there are endless other problems that get solved. Problems such as:

1. We have a zillion BATs here now, all made in full 3D in Gmax. Can't convert them to SC5 because it's closed-source, too time-consuming to hack, and/or we won't have control over what goes in it? Urbs Urbis will handle them and make SC5's building diversity look like a joke.

2. Some CEO gets worried about some idiot getting offended over something stupid (e.g. Hot Coffee), suing the company, and getting $(some integer) * 10⁶ for it and having to screw over the game and make it impossible to mod? How about a game mode that implements objective, non-ethnocentric racism and stereotypes of every ethnicity? EA might try that after they release the source code to SC4, Duke Nukem Forever comes out, and hell freezes over. Do this right, satirize both racism and political correctness, and make SC5's "societies" look like another complete joke.

3. Some coder makes a cool feature for the game that has 2 bugs and can't get them fixed in time for final game to get assembled and shipped and on the shelves by 12/1 this year, so they get stripped and incorporated into an expansion pack that never gets released because parent company is too busy working on a game that makes them far more money and it slips through the cracks? Moot.

4. Anyone can develop for the game. Thought of something? Either code, test, and compile it in or find someone who can, then increment the version number and release a new beta. Right now we wait 4 years only to discover that nothing happened, the roads are still straight, and the first screen looks like something you could find on one of the Tomorrowland machines in Disney* (and I can see Walt turning over in his grave from it).

So I have come back to make this work.

[smurf 0]

Is Urbs Urbis going to be the final name of the game? God I hope not.

[DARKO 3]

Why are you still stuck on the name?

God forbid we name it something intelligent and clever.

[newy2 0]

Looks interesting, ima register

Cheers

[star.torturer 0]

A question:

how many people who have experesed a dislike for the registration system would be quite happy to have an account that can just view the forums, so that if you want to register after lerning more about how the project is going

Joe

[John-SJ 13]

I am not trying to put a damper on what is being done here, to be honest, I think what is being attempted is great!  But it never hurts to know what you are looking at as far as time committment.

As I am at work I cannot look at my SC4 manual, but if anyone can, look at the staff credits (if there is such a thing) and count the number of coders, artists, producers, and managers that contributed to SC4.  In absence of a real number, let's say the number is 50.  Also, in the absence of a real project duration let's say the completed SC4, from inception to final product out the dorr, in 2 years, which is very likely much less time than it actually took.

Okay, so 50 people working 2080 hours per year (I assume no overtime, which is certainly a false assumption) over 2 years we are looking at 208,000 man hours of development time. 

Assuming you can assemble a team of 50 people today, and assuming that everyone has all of the tools they need to work on the project, and that you already have source code management, build management, project management, etc. etc. issues already under control (if not, add 3-6 months to the total time) and assuming that each of your 50 people can contibute at leat 20 hours per week to the project, you might have something that looks a little like the currnet SC4 in as little as 4 years.

So, in 2011 you may have a decent SC4 clonec coded and tested (assuming you can find enough people to do a decent testing job).  Of course, if people can't work the full 20 hours per week (every week for 4 years) it will take longer.  Every time someone drops off the team and needs to be replaced he will need time to get up to speed (which in turn will take other developers away from coding to train the new guy)

Oh, did I mention logistics?  In order for EA to produce SC4 in the time they did they had their team all in one place.  Since you won't be able to do that you should plan on adding about 20% to your total development time.

I am not saying it can't be done, but it is a huge undertaking.  You should be prepared for what you are geeting yourselves into.

Has anyone taken the time to talk with people who have already worked on SimCity clones to get a feeling for their experiences?

[baertooth 330]

Thanks for posting this link! I'm checking this out and hopefully I can divorce myself from EA and stop lurking TM's forums and they can have their CB and I can have my city simulator.

I say roll with this. Once the framework is in place, there is enough interest in Simcity from the fans I think UU would progress very fast. I for one am looking to contribute. EA made a stratigic mistake and now it may have cost them me and their hardcore fans. UU is what I want, not Societies. I might even go back to playing SC4

And John SJ, I hear what your saying, but as a manager I firmly believe in the 80-20 rule. How it applies here is 80% of the employees do 20% of the work and 20% of the employees do 80% of the work, and this applies to EA's employees as well. If 50 motivated and talented people (and they would be because they want to be there, and not just to collect a paycheck which more than likely would make them 20% type employees) got together, a basic SC 5 won't take very long to code. And finally, what would you have us do? Give up and accept that we're stuck with Societies or by some stretch of the imagination there might actually be a Simcity 5 from EA just because it's going to be a largish project?

Simcity, or UU, is the perfect project for OSS. It's too big for a company to handle without the right person with the vision and I don't think EA has that. My having played for 18 years and being forced to change what I love for something I don't really care for motivates me as well.

Just so you know, I've been trying to play Ceasar 4 for the last week to see what I might be in store for and it makes me less hopeful for Societies.

[John-SJ 13]

beartooth,

No, I would never suggest that you give up.  Not when it is something that you believe in as strongly as this.

I hope you are right about the 80/20 rule, although, my experience working as a software developer in the electronics industry would net bear out your application of this rule.  My motivation in posting what I did was to try to give people a view of the project that is a little more grounded in reality, from my experience anyway.

I haven't been over to the website yet but if registration doesn't requier a lot of personal info I probably will sign up sometime soon to seen what you have going over there.  And if you are willing to accept anything from someone who isn't an avowed SC:S hater I might even volunteer.  I probably couldn't contribute a lot due to career and family, but I am sure I could contribute something.  I'm a good organizer, very detail oriented, and have over 2 decades in software development.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

Even if you can't do actual work, your experience would be mega useful in helping other people, and in helping to get the project moving.

Things that you already know, or could instantly notice could take other people a long time to learn, or notice some thing's wrong.

[John-SJ 13]

I would like to offer a small tidbit, to be used in whatever way the project sees fit.

One of the difficulties of projects such as this is keeping the attention and enthusiasm of the volunteers.  (I speak from experience here)

One way to counter than, and to keep enthusiasm going is by implementing the game on a phased design.  I got this idea from Firaxis.  When the start a new game, they don't wait for a finished design, they get a barebones direction for the game and immediately implement a prototype.  The prototype won't do much, but the programmers have something in their hands, something to improve upon.

Another advantage of taking the project in small chunks, as long as the design is sound and the prototype code is used in the final product, you have code that is tested virtually from day 1.  This eliminates a lot of bugs in the end product.

[yamaneko 2]

Developing IS very difficult.  Let me give you a little horror story.  (For what it's worth, I spent eight years coding in this language, ending in 1998.) 

I told my graduate advisor that I would have some code ready for him on June 28.  With only six days left until the deadline, I began to write code without fully working out the ideas therein.  The gist of the code is trivial when compared to any aspect of a robust city simulation perceptible by its users, and I was lulled by the simplicity of the concept behind the code. 

Today is June 27.  On June 24 the coding got buried within its own complexity, so it had to be reworked.  On June 26 the reworking proved inadequate.  Fortunately I set the deadline and not my advisor, so I can probably get away with having the work done around July 6, if nothing else happens (not a likely scenario).  Four days of work appear to have been wasted (though perhaps the lessons relearned will save four weeks in August!)

The lesson of this tale is that we need to work through the ideas that are presented, and take plenty of time to do so.  Instead of sitting down to code on June 23, I would have been better off sitting down at a desk far from the computer and working out a design document to say exactly what was needed, the pseudocode to write it, and then spending June 27 on a coding blitz and June 28 on a testing blitz.  In terms of a city simulator given 24 months from the founding of Simtropolis 1000 to stable beta, 16-17 months spent on simulation visualization, specification, design and algorithm selection/pseudocoding would not be excessive.  Only pseudocoding requires a programmer in a capacity beyond giving advice, and it suffices that the paradigm (object-oriented vs. structured coding) be decided since pseudocode is not necessarily language-specific. 

Well, I got to get back to work.  

[John-SJ 13]

Hi yamaneko,

I apologize, this is not really the correct place for such a discussion, but for the moment it will have to suffice.

I agree with you about the complexity and difficulty of coding, and I can relate to your horror story from my own experiences.  I also agree with the absolute need for a robust design if UU is to ever be more than a dream or a nightmare of conflicting ideas.

The idea of building early prototypes comes from the iterative OO Design methodology.  It is the methodology I have used on large OO projects and if done correctly, it can really help to speed a project along. 

The only change I would make to what you said is, rather than using pseudocode, use  prototypes instead.

BTW, has an implementation language been chosen yet?

[north country dude 202]

It's only a couple of weeks old so far, and in reality, many, many discussions are taking place simultaneously. Before passing judgment, have a look.

On a personal note, I think many of the members are aware of the warnings you give, but seriously, have a look, then decide.

If we pull this off, it would really be great, if it fades,...well we still have SC4 and all of it's wonderful custom content.

[John-SJ 13]

If my tone was of one who has passed judgement, then I apologize.  That was never my intention.

As for having a look, I have already registered and introduced myself.  I'll be poking around, trying to get myself grounded, then see if/where I might fit in.

[megalopolitan 0]

Originally posted by: John-SJOne way to counter than, and to keep enthusiasm going is by implementing the game on a phased design.  I got this idea from Firaxis.  When the start a new game, they don't wait for a finished design, they get a barebones direction for the game and immediately implement a prototype.  The prototype won't do much, but the programmers have something in their hands, something to improve upon.quote>

 

The force is strong in this one...