screamingman12

Anyone know where I can find these pipe bridges? I found this shot in the "Show us your ghettos" thread: Originally posted by: Neofita quote>

Originally posted by: clarkjordan12345 What is wrong with using a laptop? I'm using one and it keeps crashing. I have a centrino 2 processor and 4GB RAM. It's a top of the range laptop. It crashes when I use certain plugins. Is it the plugins, the laptop or both?quote> Laptops can overheat if demanding applications are run for a long time. Even though he doesn't have one, that's probably what's going on.

What is your problem that you are trying to solve with the fix? You may need to replop the stations and leave a gap in the track where you want the station to go.

The pumps have a set capacity. Adding more should solve your problem.

https://alumni.wm.edu/magazine/spgsum_2006/feature_5.shtml

Are you using a laptop?

I know that there are a lot of people not too terribly fond of the educational system of the United States, but lets shift the focus of this from the classroom to the textbooks that are being used. This is a summary of Federalist 16 and 17 written by James Madison that we are reading for Advanced Placement US Government, in bold are the opinions: "The Federalist Papers were a brilliant and comprehensive analysis of the politics and theory of the Constitution. James Madison and Alexander Hamilton had no peers when it came to persuasive explanations of every nook and cranny of the Constitution. As was customary at the time, Madison and Hamilton signed The Federalist Papers with the nom de plume Publius... Opponents of the new Constitution, called the Anti-Federalists, also wrote a series of essays that various newspapers around the country published. They expressed their concerns as well in the ratifying conventions and other venues. By contrast with the Federalists, the Anti-Federalists had no unified direction, theme, or plan of action. Publius authored The Federalist, but a wide number of Anti-Federalists ranging from "Brutus" to "Country Boy," "Cato," "Republicus," "An Old Whig," "A Plebeian," and "A Federal Farmer" wrote the Anti-Federalist "papers." The anti-federalist criticisms were disjointed and often shrill adjectives that could also be used to describe the anti-federalist forces that failed in the end to defeat the ratification of the Constitution. History gave Madison, Hamilton, and The Federalistan A+, a grade History also awarded to the national political strategy. The Anti-Federalists received a failing grade for their political theory and politics. Both the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists recognized the importance of constitutional text...." You see the problem here? A textbook should be reporting facts, not running its mouth. If you want, I can post mentions of Printz v. United States, Unites Statesv. Lopez, and the New Deal, those are worse.

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: screamingman12 This is a summary of Federalist 16 and 17 written by James Madison that we are reading for Advanced Placement US Government. quote> Well, there's your problem right there. It's an AP course and you're reading the SparkNotes version. Why not read the actual text? quote> This is most certainly not sparknotes. This is the summary that's in the textbook for us to reference, it comes after the actual text, which I read. The articles said nothing implying that the opposition was a bunch of brainless twits (unlike the summary), and certainly didn't suggest that its author be revered as immortal.

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes Originally posted by: screamingman12 Hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_13 Look there, for starters. Yes it kept people from being made homeless, but it also caused a lot of problems. This is not something that happened overnight. And if someone could show me how to put links in text, it would be very much appreciated. quote> That was in 1978, Surely those limits have been raised by later legislation. I suppose its not politicly correct to point out the influx of Illegal immigrants draw on state funds? quote> Note the section titled 2008-2009 Budget Crisis, it helps. Basically, California's problem is unique and nothing that will happen to the Federal Government. What happened was Prop 13 was passed which cut their main source of funding and required them to rely on sales and income taxes instead. Eventually the money ran out, hence the reason why the roads are crap, the schools are crap, and the state had to issue IOUs, Illegal immigrants play a part, but they're not the main reason.

Hint hint, wink wink, nudge nudge: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_13 Look there, for starters. Yes it kept people from being made homeless, but it also caused a lot of problems. This is not something that happened overnight. And if someone could show me how to put links in text, it would be very much appreciated.

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes Originally posted by: hamsterTK So I'm guessing like everyone owns a "serious" camera but me. I saw a kit where you get a Nikon D60 and a basic 18-55 mm lens and a bag for ~500 bucks. That's still steep. who knowsquote> There are not many very good Camera's for under 500 Dollars.quote> Olympus makes some entry level DSLRs for $450 and $500. They come in one or two lens kits, the two lens kits are more expensive.

Ooooh, fun! My equipment: Olympus SP-565UZ, Sakar tripod Stuff:

Originally posted by: Duke87 Provide people with a way around living in abysmal circumstances that's easier than studying hard and working hard, and they'll take advantage of it, simply because it's the path of least resistance. And now you've created a situation where human greed and selfishness work against the economy rather than for it because you drive people to sit on their ass and suckle the teat of the welfare system rather than actually contributing something useful to society.quote> Do we have any proof that what you're describing is actually happening? Some bankruptcies areactually being caused by people not being able to pay health care bills. How about people that were fired because the company they worked for went under, got cancer and had health insurance clunk out, etc. What did they do? Besides, I still hould that the free market concept is more sound. Most of its failings in this country were brought about because it was mismanaged, either overregulated or (less often) underregulated.quote> More likely under. Remember when Glass-Steagall was repealed? Oh yeah, you probably didn't hear about it because the media was too busy covering Clinton's impeachment. No. When did I say that? quote> The way you phrased that you implied that I only supported Obama because he is Obama. I consistantly support democratic candidates because my family doesn't fit the mold that the Republican party pushes (specifically on the environment and same-sex marriage). Exactly. And when they mistreat their customers, it loses them money because those customers leave for greener pastures. So that works just fine.quote> But the question is does the amount they mistreat exceed the amount that are apathetic/perhaps helped? if the answer is no, then nobody cares. Besides, no example should be necessary. It's common sense, really. Logic stipulates it must happen in order for the system to work.quote> Not necessarily. If that happens, then the system doesn't work and needs to be fixed. Hyperbole alert!quote> already addressed this. Bull. What's not possible is for any individual to exceed without motivation. You don't need a nanny state to help you, what you need is to work for it!quote> I don't usually play this card, but where do you think you would be without that public school? The fact remains that public shools in this country do a lot of students a disservice because they always try approach everyone the same way, and try to hold everyone to the same standards. The potential of gifted kids is wasted, learning disabled kids are continually pushed too hard, and kids who are neither gifted nor disabled but have other peculiarities suffer because the "default" system really doesn't suit them. quote> Not how mine worked. Depends on how broken it is. A car that needs a quick tune up should get a quick tune up. A car that needs a whole new engine, new tires, a new suspension system, new brakes, and a new muffler is probably best sent to the scrapyard. Sometimes the best way to "fix" a system is to go back to the drawing board.quote> And do you propose that we simply "get rid of" a public school system or a postal service? I know a lot of people who think those don't work, but they still need to exist for a sound society.

Originally posted by: Duke87 Foul. Don't do that. Correcting someone's typo is foul?quote> But in doing so, you changed the meaning of it. The way he wrote it it could be interpreted as "insurance companies want to keep the status quo." The way you wrote it it could be interpreted as "the government wants to increase the national debt". Granted this requires a leap of logic, but I'll let Easy Bakes decide who's right. Okay, now, it's not that there's anything necessarily inherently wrong with that goal, but there are two major problems here. One is cost. The other is that it's granting an already too powerful government more power.quote> perhaps, but I for one think it's worth it. I know it's a bad idea to draw parallels about other countries on this matter, but most of Europe (and any other industrialized nation) doesn't seem to be headed for the poor house due to their medical system. Granted we spend far, far too much money on our military, which contributes to the problem of the trillion dollar deficit. Like anything else, it can be benevolent if run correctly. A powerful government doesn't necessarily mean a bad one. I understand that the text book isn't on my side with this, but if you find someone competent to institute and run it, it is safe and won't hurt you. Remember, you elect the people that would control this, if they deny treatment to anyone's grandmother, get on the phone and vent and tell them you're not going to re-elect them. There's no "invisible rulebook" that tells a government how it has to set up a universal health care system. There's nothing requiring that it be complete crap, and if you talk to people from other countries, they will most likely tell you that the concept is sound. Just surrendering to that, eh? Where's "yes we can!" here? YES WE CAN avoid higher taxes by stopping this nonsense from passing!quote> You really think I'm an Obama Democrat? Wow... Right, because companies desire nothing more than to mistreat their customers. It's simply good business practice. quote> correction: They desire nothing more than to make money in any way possible. Meanwhile, beauracracy is known for having a very high capacity for empathy. They really care about you, and they'll give you whatever you need right after you fill out all these forms, submit them for approval, and give them a few weeks to process. And they even care so much that they'll define "what you need" for you! quote> Show me an example where this has happened. Just because you claim it will happen doesn't mean it will. Maybe not, but on the other hand since the federal government is considered to have infinitely deep pockets, so they have little motivation to try and spend efficiently.... the opposite extreme, which is also problematic. quote> Paying for end-of-life care doesn't imply that they are wasting money, if that's what you're getting at. Who's to say that someone's not going to come along later and institute efficiency? Right, because raising taxes and/or cutting other services totally goes over well.quote> You proved my point for me. Besides, throwing more money at a problem may very well do absolutely nothing to solve it, and may even make it worse, depending on how that money is spent. "We're going to give that more funding" is in and of itself meaningless.quote> As in "there's a line at this hospital, we're going to build another one". That's what I was getting at. Giving something funding (should) imply that it's going to be fixed by using that money constructively, be it by building hospitals, hiring teachers, building schools, etc. And you could certainly cut that 9.7% unemployment rate if people signed on to build and work in these places. Your dichotomy is flawed here. CEOs are not omnipotent emporers which control every tiny little detail within a company. Like with government, there's a hierarchy of power which involves many individuals to varying degrees. And yes, they get paid to do their jobs. Nothing wrong with that. Besides, politicians may not be concerned about dollars above all but they are concerned about votes above all. And they have more power, so they are inherently less trustworthy. And no, corporations are not to be unconditionally trusted either. But they have a key check and balance that the government does not: competition form other companies doing the same business. There are many insurance companies in the US. There's only one federal government.quote> The free market is not a magic fix-all for problems. You honestly don't think that health-insurance companies collaborate to corner the market and maintain the status quo? Capitalism isn't always benevolent, success doesn't mean offering the best services on the market, it means making the most money for your stockholders, yourself, and putting the rest into marketing and expansion to keep the wheels turning. Other than the fact that it's hypocritical to get drunk on American exceptionalism when anyone who's not a member of a white suburban family can't get by and 46 million people are uninsured and can either chose to die of the flu or be kicked out of a hospital and put on the street; I realize that it is not possible anymore for the individual to succeed without aid from the society. Public schools, fire and police departments that you don't have to pay when you require them, a postal service (however flawed it may be). I know you had a bad experience with public school, but that doesn't mean that everyone had the same thing happen to them. If a public institution is not working the answer isn't to get rid of it, but to fix it.

Originally posted by: Ntq$310 I still wonder why we are going to add another multi-trillion dollar program on top of some of the other multi-trillion dollar programs we already have that do what this multi-trillion dollar program is suppose to do in the first place. Then again, we don't even have all the money for the first multi-trillion dollar program, so how can we even think of paying for this one?quote> What its supposed to do is prevent the 46 million without health insurance from dying from something that could have been prevented. Anything wrong with that? Yes or no? Personally, even if it does cost more money, and even if it does require taxes, so be it. That's life. I would gladly pay an extra hundred a year in taxes (granted I don't have an income yet, but if I did, I would) to insure that I won't get turned away from a hospital because the insurance company wants to buy cigars and lobster dinners for its board of directors. Insurance companies don't think about health care as something that involves people living or dying, they see it as all other corporations do, in terms of profit. If you need treatment, you cost them money. Simple as that. And to anyone who says that a universal system would be the same. The payroll of a Congressman or Senator is not determined by how much money they save the government in terms of medical losses. I can't think of a better campaign tactic then saying that they will spend more on healthcare to make their citizens' quality of life better. Government is not to be unconditionally trusted, but I trust it a hell of a lot more than a corporate CEO only concerned with how many dollars he lines his pocket with. Edit: PFB perhaps?

Originally posted by: Easy Bakes And they want to and something that will suck money forever.quote> Originally posted by: Duke87 And they want to add something that will suck money forever.quote> Foul. Don't do that.

If you mean driving along and vanishing, they do that. Otherwise, can you post a pic?

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: Easy Bakes But silver/gray you dont have to keep it so sparkling clean and it still looks the same, White,black,red tend to show up the smogy dusty accumulations more then silver.quote> Meh, a little dirt never hurt anyone. And if it gets to be too much, a quick spritz with the hose solves that. quote> Remember when you mentioned black seats heating up? Imagine that on a larger scale, that's one obvious advantage for silver cars.

When CXL comes out will probably be the time for me to buy a new machine. I'll just leave SC4 on the old one, back everything up, and put CXL on my new computer.

This may sound familiar to a lot of you, its based on the CJ I wrote a few years back. I don't know what to call it, and it still needs some work, comments/suggestions welcome. Chapter I Hello, my name is Nick Sho. I am 18 and living in Bay City, home to approximately two million residents and a large metropolis in the urban desert known as the Ortega-Bay City Metro Area. The story I am about to recount is one of bizarre proportions, over the last two months I unwillingly and unknowingly took part in something I did not even know existed or much wanted to be involved with. It started with a computer, and ended with one of the largest criminal arrests that Bay City has ever seen. I will tell of it as I can best remember it, haven explained all sensitive details to the proper authorities resulting in the arrests of the guilty individuals. Thus, I shall begin as it began, a morning like many others, at 7:15 AM on a Tuesday. “BEEP BEEP BEEP” the cheap electronic alarm clock cried out, alerting me that it was time to attempt to wake up (even though I was bound to push the snooze button several times, as work did not start until 9:30). “Alright, alright, I'm going” I said lazily, I got up and went to the bathroom where I proceeded to wash my face, after which I went into the kitchen. “Mmm, bagels, same as usual” I said unenthusiastically as I browsed through the refrigerator, grabbing a bagel and the almost-empty carton of orange juice, realizing that I desperately needed to go to a grocery store soon. After breakfast I proceeded to go down the elevator and walk two blocks to the streetcar stop. Now, before I continue, I must explain that the only reason I live in such a new, desirable apartment is because it was subsidized due to the fact that I was going to college, as is the custom in the country of Oceana. One drawback to this was that expenses such as utilities and food were of the sort that I could barely manage to pay them on my current salary, and had I not been going to school, I would probably be living in one of those old governmental concrete towers that were built about 1960, and converted to residential use when all governmental proceedings and offices for the metro area were moved to Ancora City, three hours down the R-2832. “Next train arriving in five minutes”, the computerized voice at the station said authoritatively. Now, I must explain that although Bay City has a very vast and efficient light rail/streetcar system, it is one of the oldest in the region, using cars that are from 1940, at least. However, there is little to complain about, as the climate doesn't require air conditioning, and there seem to be enough to keep the service frequent. I swiped my annual pass as I entered the car, “your balance has twenty eight dollars remaining” it said; again, a bi-product of my expenses, as it needed to be renewed soon. I pushed the thought to the back of my mind and sat down, the ride up the Western Shore district took about a half-hour. Bay City was divided into three districts, the Eastern Shore, Middle Island, and Western Shore, as the Harran River split into two branches and flowed into the northern end of the Ortega Bay. It was 9:32 AM when I arrived. “You're late”, said the sales manager Liz Arsello, as I walked into The Electric Shop, a small chain of electronics and computer stores I worked at. “Sorry, but you know transit” I replied, hoping to get some sympathy. “Never mind that, I need you to do something”, she replied sternly, she wasn't exactly the nicest person when on the job. “Me?”, I asked with a blank stare, “Yeah, I need you to drop off a computer at a guy's house that he brought in for work a week ago, he claims he has a torn mussel in his leg and can't drive”. “I didn't know we delivered, but anyway I don't have a car”, I said, trying to get out of it. “That's no matter, borrow Mike's, he left it here again, he won't mind as long as you don't crash”, she said, accepting no excuses as usual. “Uhh, okay, but I barely got my driver's license”, I replied, futilely going for another cop-out. “As I said, don't wreck it”, and with that, she handed me the keys, and I put the computer in the passenger's seat. I began to drive along West Shore Boulevard, I was always struck by the scene of the Middle Island and the Eastern Shore seeming to rise out of the water, and had taken many pictures of it, having procured an SLR camera at a deep discount through my job. I immediately recognized the address I was given as being in an old concrete tower park, and once there, I realized exactly how visually toxic these building were, being nothing more than gray concrete slabs with black slits of windows in them, and many were still being renovated even after being vacant for ten years. I approached the address given, and went inside to the lobby. “I have a delivery to make”, I said to the woman standing behind the desk, “dropping off a computer, for a Torre Shang” I added. The attendant said “fourth floor, room 422, elevator's on the left”, and I was soon at the door, and on the second knock it was opened. He must have been at least five years older than me, dressed in khaki pants and a blue Hawaiian shirt, with shoulder-length black hair. “Shang?” I asked, “ Yes, better come in and set this up for me” he replied, pointing to the desk in the corner. “All fixed”, I said as I turned it on, “just needed a new video card, I assume you paid already?”, “yes”, he replied, glancing at me quickly. “Say, have I seen you before?” he asked, this caught me somewhat off guard, as I couldn't say that he had. “not that I know of”, I replied, walking towards the door, “anyway, Torre Shang, glad to meet you”, he said; “Nick Sho”, I replied. “That was strange, never had somebody introduce themselves to me like that”, I said to myself as I walked towards the borrowed car, which I had managed to succeed not damaging. As I drove back, I couldn't help but remember that it was also my job to buy lunch for us on Tuesdays, so I stopped by the FastBurger and walked in (city law prevented the building of many drive-thrus, so they were rare). “Whatcha want”, the cashier barked, they must have been a relative of Liz. “Uhh, two number sevens, one with fries, one with rings, and a number five, also with fries, two cokes and a strawberry shake” I replied, one thing I liked about buying lunch was being able to get more for yourself, something which everyone took advantage of from time to time. “Here or out” she replied, annoyed that I had ordered so much. “Out”, I said. “Five minutes” she replied. Everyone always said that any task would take exactly five minutes, regardless of what it was, and ten minutes later I walked out of the restaurant with the food and began to drive back. As I drove, I noticed someone who looked like Torre casually walking down the street. “That's weird, I just saw that guy”, I sad to myself. “What took you?” Liz asked sharply, “I had to get lunch, I think the FastBurger cashier is related to you”, I said jokingly. “Not funny”, she replied blankly; “Somebody say food?” burst out Jerry Regis from the back, he was our workshop man for the day. “Yeah”, I replied, and slid a bag and drink over to him. We were all very hungry, and soon devoured our double cheeseburgers (mine with bacon, remember what I said about privileges?), fries and drinks and soon got back to work. The rest of the day was, like most others, uneventful. Explaining differences between various computers, televisions, that our couch (which was probably the envy of the city by now) was not for sale, and why car stereos don't come with headphone jacks to the occasional customer who walked in. Meanwhile Torre Shang picked up his telephone. “Don't worry Vick, the plans are still safe, everything is still on the computer like it was when I dropped it off, I'll bet you a million that those idiots didn't even check it for anything”. “Good, he said, just don't press your luck multiple times, be more careful”, “I will” Shang replied, “but this means we're still on for Thursday this week, the exhibit leaves on Saturday, and we can't afford to let it slip by, all the crew have the gear?” he asked. “Yes, we're set, all the blueprints of the gallery and agendas are on that computer, I swear, you better have encrypted those good, cause if this blows up, we're gonna get the slammer for ten, at least”. “Don't you worry, just do your job, although I am beginning to worry about one thing, I saw the guy who dropped off the computer at my house driving by as I was walking to the bank, maybe he knows”. “Well if you see him again, or if he gives you trouble, you let me know and I'll send somebody to take care of him”, Vick replied confidently. “Lets meet at the wearhouse tonight and go over everything once more”, “okay, sounds good” Shang replied. Meanwhile “Well, that's about it”, Liz said as she flipped the sign to “closed” and turned off some of the lights and locked up the cases with the flat screen TVs in them (can't be to careful here, somebody might steal them), “see you all tomorrow, I'm buying lunch, and I'm buying a chocolate flurry for me, nobody else gets one!”. “Yeah”, I replied, rolling my eyes. I decided to ride over to the library on the train, as I had to borrow some books for school on architecture theory (did I ever mention how I hate those concrete towers they built?), and thus I got on an A-Eastern Shore/Tunnels, rather than the E-Westshore Blvd train that I usually take. The tunnels which the streetcars used were built about 1900 and served to connect all three districts of the city running under the two branches of the Harran River, they were the type of thing you would expect to wander through and get lost in very quickly. As the train exited the tunnels on the Eastern Shore, I looked out the window, and couldn't help but notice noticing a bunch of people exiting a van and going into an industrial building. I thought they were real estate people until I saw somebody familiar, “was that the guy again? This is creepy, is he following me?” I thought, he must have seen me, as he was looking directly at the train as it passed by. Meanwhile Torre arrived with the van, and pulled up in front of the abandoned wearhouse to an assembly of seven unassuming men dressed in street clothing. As he got out of the van, he turned around to notice a streetcar pass by, and browsing through its passengers, he saw a face which had become all to familiar in the past several hours. “Bloody Hell, was that him?”, Shang muttered to himself. “What? Who?”, Vick replied, realizing that something was up. “Its that guy again, the one I told you I saw three times already today, I think he might be on to us, we'll have to do something about him”. Shang replied quietly, as not to frighten the others. “Leave that to me, I'll take care of it, he'll learn not to mess with us”, Vick reassuringly told Torre. Afterwards That day left me with a lot of unanswered questions. Who was that man, what was he doing, and why did I keep seeing him? I returned to my apartment, never realizing that my being or my possessions could be in danger. Little did I know of what was to come next...

Originally posted by: sneakeypete Err, far from it actually... The faster you go, the more wind (and rolling) resistance you have. This is why vehicles usually have a maximum speed that they reach, which isn't redline in 5th gear (unless they have really short gears), because the power being generated is equal to the force of the wind being pushed upon them. The faster you go, the more wind resistance there is, and the less economical your vehicle is to drive. quote> The maximum speed is the engine power over the weight. A 6600 lb car with a 75 horsepower engine is not going to go 130 mph. The faster you go, the more efficient the engine becomes (to a point) regardless of what you're driving, especially of that speed is sustained for a long amount of time, as the engine doesn't have the stress of acceleration put on it, and can achieve good gas mileage.

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: screamingman12 Uhh, that they recruit and employ illegal immigrants willingly,quote> Oh, scandalous! They employ people to do the job! Shocking, tell me more! quote> Well, it is illegal to do that, so draw your own conclusions... and have absolutely no care for sanitation when handling and butchering said meat.quote> Well gee, if the sanitation is such a problem, than people must get food poisoning from that stuff all the time! Oh, wait, they don't. Hmm, must not be such an issue then, eh? quote> I suggest you check here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=beef+recall&aq=0&oq=beef+reca&aqi=g5g-s1

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: mimolay If you read "Fast Food Nation," it really makes you not want to eat at McDonald's. Especially when the author talks about the slaughterhouses.quote> Reading propaganda can have that sort of effect if you let it. And what about the slaughterhouses? if there's meat, an animal must have been killed to make it. That's a given. Any idiot could figure that out. Exactly what "shocking revelation" does the author expect to make? That they're treating the animals like, erm, animals? So what? Who gives a damn. They're just animals. quote> Uhh, that they recruit and employ illegal immigrants willingly, give them long hours and low pay, and have absolutely no care for sanitation when handling and butchering said meat. If you take the attitude that alternate viewpoints/muckraking is "propaganda", then you won't get very far...

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: mimolay If you read "Fast Food Nation," it really makes you not want to eat at McDonald's. Especially when the author talks about the slaughterhouses.quote> Reading propaganda can have that sort of effect if you let it. And what about the slaughterhouses? if there's meat, an animal must have been killed to make it. That's a given. Any idiot could figure that out. Exactly what "shocking revelation" does the author expect to make? That they're treating the animals like, erm, animals? So what? Who gives a damn. They're just animals. quote> Uhh, that they recruit and employ illegal immigrants willingly, give them long hours and low pay, and have absolutely no care for sanitation when handling and butchering said meat. If you take the attitude that alternate viewpoints/muckraking is "propaganda", then you won't get very far...

Originally posted by: Duke87 Originally posted by: mimolay If you read "Fast Food Nation," it really makes you not want to eat at McDonald's. Especially when the author talks about the slaughterhouses.quote> Reading propaganda can have that sort of effect if you let it. And what about the slaughterhouses? if there's meat, an animal must have been killed to make it. That's a given. Any idiot could figure that out. Exactly what "shocking revelation" does the author expect to make? That they're treating the animals like, erm, animals? So what? Who gives a damn. They're just animals. quote> Uhh, that they recruit and employ illegal immigrants willingly, give them long hours and low pay, and have absolutely no care for sanitation when handling and butchering said meat. If you take the attitude that alternate viewpoints/muckraking is "propaganda", then you won't get very far...