I'm so confused

[darkscaryforest 3]

I'm a new player. This game just feels like a black box to me most of the time. When I have a problem or am successful at something, I only have concepts of the what or the how instead of solid knowledge of what is happening. I appreciate anyone who can help me understand more about the game with my current problems.

I have NAM installed as well as various fixes (including hi-tech fix, opera house fix). No CAM mod installed. I've started my first region. I built a city in one of the small squares. I completely covered it with a mix of residential, commercial, and industrial zones. It looks fairly successful at first glance since I have 120k sims, a large surplus of money, high education/healthcare/desirability, and traffic is under control by having bus stops and a subway along with the roads.

The problem is I have massive swathes of high-wealth, high density residential areas without jobs. Interspersed in these areas were buildings abandoned "due to commute time", but I suspect what that really means is "abandoned due to infinite commute time" aka no jobs. (Can anyone confirm if that's a real thing?) 

I wanted to say the issue was that I have high density residential stuff and low density industrial/commercial? I honestly don't know. What I mean is I mouse over a resident building and see spots for an insane 3000 people, where as I mouse over the biggest high-tech building I can find and it has like 100 jobs. Is it the case that way more of your land will be commercial and industry? I was kind of hoping I'd get very large workplaces too. I don't see how else I could raise the pop further otherwise.

Since I was out of land to build more stuff...I knew one way to fix this was to go to a neighboring region and build commercial/industry there. So I did...and it sort of worked? Maybe? I could build a few sections of hi-tech and commercial before the demand zeroed out next door. Then I would reload the main city, quit, then reload the neighbor and low and behold a little more would magically build. I repeated this like 30 times and now 1/3 of the neighbor city is filled with hi-tech/high wealth commercial with 0 residents. I can't tell if I just exploiting a bug here on accident or if you're supposed to reload repeatedly like this.

In main city, there are still a few places with no jobs, but I wanted to say that it worked and they are commuting.  However, then I noticed a NEW problem. Now, almost all of my existing hi-tech and commercial in the first city are abandoned due to low demand. These places were fine before. I'm assuming this is because of the neighboring region. I don't understand..I thought I was just filling in the jobs that were missing? Yet somehow I have supplanted jobs in the first city...

Was I wrong in thinking that I was filling in the missing jobs by building in a neighboring region? Maybe jobs are like pollution...trapped in the same city square

Maybe my issue is about this magical, nebulous growth stage I've heard about? Like if I go off and make 3 other 100k cities, and then reload my first one sky scrapers could pop up and solve these density problems?

I feel I don't have great control over this stuff. I just kind of float on vibes.
Thanks for any help. Like I've said I've watched tutorials but it really feels like there's a lot of black magic here.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,110]

First off, I would like to send you to this thread which I made when I was in the same spot that you are today. It revolves around numerous first-timer topics, which you might find useful. I hope you can find something for yourself!

2 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

The problem is I have massive swathes of high-wealth, high density residential areas without jobs. Interspersed in these areas were buildings abandoned "due to commute time", but I suspect what that really means is "abandoned due to infinite commute time" aka no jobs. (Can anyone confirm if that's a real thing?) 

You are correct!  This message sometimes means that Sims simply cannot find suitable jobs.

Generally, the golden rule is to avoid laying out new zones, just because the demand is there. Treat it more like a supply, rather than an order... This is especially true of R$$$ citizens, the numbers of which are always low (as in real life).

2 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

where as I mouse over the biggest high-tech building I can find and it has like 100 jobs.

This is unfortunately true and most of your population will work in the commercial sector. There are mods, however that double or quadruple the number of industrial workplaces. I don't have too much time now, but I can show you some, unless someone else chimes in earlier.

3 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

I can't tell if I just exploiting a bug here on accident or if you're supposed to reload repeatedly like this.

SC4 strategy, indeed, involves visiting and revisiting various cities repeatedly. This way they exchange information, demand and workforce. 

3 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

Was I wrong in thinking that I was filling in the missing jobs by building in a neighboring region?

In a way? You were. Again, just because demand is there, does not mean you should use it right away. In fact, in order to see some of the most impressive buildings in the game, you will have to save up demand up to 7000 units or more!! If you keep zoning, you will never see them, because the demand will be diluted into countless smaller buildings. Plus, you risk abandonment from negative demand...

[Propfam 2,307]

3 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

In fact, in order to see some of the most impressive buildings in the game, you will have to save up demand up to 7000 units or more!! If you keep zoning, you will never see them, because the demand will be diluted into countless smaller buildings. Plus, you risk abandonment from negative demand...

Gotcha! That's why I often got smaller buildings despite the demand is very strong. It turns out, the more you build at the same time, the less chance you get tall buildings.

[darkscaryforest 3]

Thank you for taking the time to go through my babbling and quote/answer so many questions. You've already helped me quite a lot with the responses.
 

8 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

First off, I would like to send you to this thread which I made when I was in the same spot that you are today. It revolves around numerous first-timer topics, which you might find useful. I hope you can find something for yourself!

I promise to go through this in detail. I really must split my SimCity time into playing and reading to learn more. This thread will be a good source.

 

If you have any time to expand further on what you've said...as it has dezoned  some of my previous thinking, I'm very appreciative.

Maybe the BEST thing I could ask you is...the city I described. No land. Lots of people without jobs. Low demand, but everything else looking green. What would you have done to fix it and why? 

 

8 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

This is unfortunately true and most of your population will work in the commercial sector. There are mods, however that double or quadruple the number of industrial workplaces

For some reason I was assuming it was the opposite but this excellent to know. I appreciate it, but no mods needed for me. I want to learn and adapt to how to play it and now I understand that commercial has a bigger role than I thought it did.

8 hours ago, TheMurderousCricket said:

Again, just because demand is there, does not mean you should use it right away. In fact, in order to see some of the most impressive buildings in the game, you will have to save up demand up to 7000 units or more!! If you keep zoning, you will never see them, because the demand will be diluted into countless smaller buildings. Plus, you risk abandonment from negative demand...

This high density response right here...kind of blowing my mind in my understanding of the game.

OK so I thought to create demand I must get more sims to move in with well upkept residential zones, but they need jobs to stick around so I indeed am quick to build commercial and industry to keep trudging forward on this zoning treadmill. Yet you stated that you can in fact pool demand and spend it when applicable!

How can you create more demand (specifically commercial and industry), banking an excess without engaging in this zone building loop? I always thought if I were to build more of one zone it'll need more of the other to actually develop...but here I am without more land now. What is the way forward?

Is there a way I may measure the demand I have pooled? I suppose that's just the RCI graph but I was hoping for numbers like you stated.

Another thought: I thought medium and high density zones will rebuild themselves to taller and taller buildings over time anyways. In fact, that's what I expected to happen when I have so many sims that need jobs. But it seems need for jobs, is not the same as demand.

For example, those 3000 soaring resident buildings I spoke of used to be tiny apartments. I thought they just suddenly sprouted up into these towering buildings one day. Maybe commercial and industry zones don't do that? Or maybe they do, if there is an excess of demand like you mention?

EDIT
Reading through that thread..I have a sinking feeling that the problem is wealth demographics which I haven't been paying attention to. IIRC 80% of my sims are $$.

[TheMurderousCricket 5,110]

First of all, I'm really happy you find my advice useful and I appreciate you report back! Believe it or not, but some players never bother to say a word of feedback after their questions are answered.  Welcome to our Town!

6 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

Maybe the BEST thing I could ask you is...the city I described. No land. Lots of people without jobs. Low demand, but everything else looking green. What would you have done to fix it and why? 

Just to clarify, what do you mean when you say "EE looking green?".

Well, my first idea would be to replace excessive zones with other zones or just dedicate them for landscaping. Maybe it's evil corner-cutting, but I have to admit that in such situations, I usually erase the jobless buildings first... 

6 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

OK so I thought to create demand I must get more sims to move in with well upkept residential zones, but they need jobs to stick around so I indeed am quick to build commercial and industry to keep trudging forward on this zoning treadmill. Yet you stated that you can in fact pool demand and spend it when applicable!

Both sides of equation need to be taken into account. You need more Sims in order to drive demand for CS, CO and Ind, especially if you wish to see futuristic glass and concrete downtown.

However, you need appropriate jobs for Sims that are in your city right now. Otherwise you will see Sims becoming unemployed, not paying any taxes and eventually dropping down a social class, creating ugly, dirty, so-called "dilapidated" buildings. This is rarely good news.

6 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

Is there a way I may measure the demand I have pooled? I suppose that's just the RCI graph but I was hoping for numbers like you stated

That's correct. Although native RCI graph turned out not to be 100% accurate... @CorinaMarie can show you an excellent piece of research she made, which can let you obtain more accurate information from RCI values.

6 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

Another thought: I thought medium and high density zones will rebuild themselves to taller and taller buildings over time anyways. In fact, that's what I expected to happen when I have so many sims that need jobs. But it seems need for jobs, is not the same as demand.

For example, those 3000 soaring resident buildings I spoke of used to be tiny apartments. I thought they just suddenly sprouted up into these towering buildings one day. Maybe commercial and industry zones don't do that? Or maybe they do, if there is an excess of demand like you mention?

The zones will rebuild like mad but there is the most important catch...

The game, sort of, simulates the developers' pathological eagerness to keep developing and upgrading neighborhoods in spite of local circumstances.

In other words, buildings will grow because superficial conditions like demand, landscaping or desirability are good. However, developers do not care whether a Sim will actually be able to find a job... As long as apartment is sold, they no longer care.

This system simply represents the trap of an unfounded enthusiasm in which the city grows too fast and then plunges into recession. This is why saving up some demand and then expending it where it counts is so important.

6 hours ago, darkscaryforest said:

How can you create more demand (specifically commercial and industry), banking an excess without engaging in this zone building loop? I always thought if I were to build more of one zone it'll need more of the other to actually develop...but here I am without more land now. What is the way forward?

Generally speaking, workplace and residential demands spin each other up. Whenever a commercial or industrial building is constructed, it calls for a specific number of Sims with particular qualifications and social level. For example, I-D factory will require uneducated R$ Sims to run.

And the other way round - certain groups of your Sims will call for particular developer types that match their employment needs. Zoning itself, does not generate or quench demand - buildings do.

Try starting with sparse zoning first - it won't eat too much of your demand but it will provide the jobs you need. Even small demand levels can lead to positive, accelerating demand loop described above.

There is a whole science behind all what I'm saying, complete with charts and hard data but I don't put it here to avoid confusion in your first steps. You can find these in my thread when you feel like you're ready for it. I remember they were presented there.