Retro's Practice Makes Perfect

[That Retro Guy 321]

Since I'm in the middle of applying fixes to my game before starting my first official region, I thought that I would take @CorinaMarie's advice, and start a practice (sandlot) Region so I could figure out how to do things.  Sometimes I just want to play instead of worrying about fixes.

Firstly, the Region:

 

The name of the Region (as you can see) is l' entraînement which is French for 'training' or 'practice'.  Since my surname is of French origin, it made sense to honor my family name in this way.

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As you can see, the Region is made up of 4 x 4 Medium cities.  I think 16 cities should be enough.  If it isn't, I'll just make another Region.

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The first city is called Intersections.  The first challenge that I set for myself was to create an Intersection where two Avenues meet with left-turn lanes and a slip-lane in every direction.

I just about pulled my hair out!   It took me over an hour and a half to realize that there is a TuLep piece that had dual slip-lanes on an Avenue!  I sat here for a total of 2+ (count 'em) hours trying to figure out why, when I tried to place any TuLep piece, it kept plopping the wrong direction.  UNTIL I realized that when you place a piece that is bigger than one tile, you want the cursor to be pointing at the right (as opposed to the left) square.  Once my daft old brain grasped that, well, take a look for yourself.

I know that there's an Intersection TuLep piece with direction arrows on it, but after 2+ hours cursing out loud at the screen (and myself), I'm afraid to plop it.  Actually, now that I think about it, the game is saved, so if I do ruin this thing, I can just reload the save.

The piece that I'm talking about has arrows on the lanes.  On one of them, the arrows at the Intersection have 'going straight' arrows on both lanes.

Questions:

1. If I manage to plop that piece without destroying everything, does that mean that the peeps (or Sims) will drive straight through the Intersection in both lanes, or will the peeps still turn right at the intersection ignoring the slip-lanes?
2. Is there a way to take an in-game pic without the Control Panel at the bottom?  I tried minimizing the CP and then use the 'Ctrl'-'Shift'-S shortcut, but my Radeon CP appeared with the words 'Instant Replay:  Off'.  Weird.
3. I realize that the Radeon CP must have the same keyboard shortcut, but can I change shortcuts in SimCity 4?
4. Is there a way when I'm listing my questions like this that the question numbers also appear Red? Inquiring minds want to know!

As always, any comments and/or advice is greatly appreciated. 

[CorinaMarie 29,788]

4 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

Is there a way to take an in-game pic without the Control Panel at the bottom?

I personally use Clip2Pic so the PrintScreen button will capture all my screens and Alt+PrintScreen will capture the window that's in focus. Set it so it saves the images at 85% JPG quality and select a folder for it to save the images to. It'll auto increment a number as part of the file name for each successive capture.

The only drawback to it, is if you are using image editing software (PS, GIMP, etc) it will also steal (and save) the image if you are selecting areas to copy (or cut) and paste. I'm used to that so I know to click it on my taskbar and Stop it while I'm editing pics. Then I Start it again when done.

[Cyclone Boom 17,016]

In addition to what Cori said above for that question, if you mean how to toggle the UI visibility then press the small Minimize button in the corner.

As follows:

Or alternatively pressing the Num Lock key toggles this visible or not visible.

To remove this from showing while toggled off, there is this mod which does that. (It can still be clicked and toggled using the Num Lock key.)

 

4 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

Is there a way when I'm listing my questions like this that the question numbers also appear Red? Inquiring minds want to know!

It might be doable editing the text in browser inspector with this HTML code:

<ol style="color: #c0392b;">

But that could be a little tricky if not familiar with such code, and I'm not sure whether it'll resolve properly when posting.

Maybe do this instead with bulleted lists?

• 1. Why is SC4 so completely awesome?
• 2. Is SC4 the best city-building game ever?
• 3. What makes the SC4 community so adoringly special?
  Etc.

 

[rsc204 21,837]

5 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

I just about pulled my hair out!   It took me over an hour and a half to realize that there is a TuLep piece that had dual slip-lanes on an Avenue!  I sat here for a total of 2+ (count 'em) hours trying to figure out why, when I tried to place any TuLep piece, it kept plopping the wrong direction.  UNTIL I realized that when you place a piece that is bigger than one tile, you want the cursor to be pointing at the right (as opposed to the left) square.  Once my daft old brain grasped that, well, take a look for yourself.

Sorry to do this to you, but the TuLEPs were superseded by the FTL/QuickTurn pieces from NAM 36.

FTL (Flexible Turn Lanes) require few pieces, just plop a "converter" on each direction, drag together with Road/Avenue tool and the Intersection is usually automatic. The QuickTurn pieces are pre-made single-plop intersections based on those, it includes AvexAve, as a single ploppable piece to create the entire intersection (well, sans the Turning Lanes). Those turning lanes can be added thereafter, see the NAM documentation (Turning Lanes section) for further instructions.

5 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

I know that there's an Intersection TuLep piece with direction arrows on it, but after 2+ hours cursing out loud at the screen (and myself), I'm afraid to plop it.  Actually, now that I think about it, the game is saved, so if I do ruin this thing, I can just reload the save.

So the older Puzzle-Piece TuLEPs need the special intersection piece, otherwise the Left Turn Lanes simply don't work. By default the AvexAve + intersection is only pathed for 2 lanes entering from each direction. Not only does the special piece make things look right visually, but adds the third path, but you need to rotate it until the B2 version is selected before plopping.

[Propfam 2,294]

I want to practice NAM, too. I want to make my work with NAM faster. But, I'm busy making a journal.

[That Retro Guy 321]

10 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Sorry to do this to you, but the TuLEPs were superseded by the FTL/QuickTurn pieces from NAM 36.

Aww . . . RATS!     And here I thought that I had actually figured something out. 

Oh well, then, the next challenge is to create an Avenue Intersection using the proper FTL pieces.

Live and learn, I guess.

[That Retro Guy 321]

Umm . . . that was too easy!  I must have done something wrong. 

 

Is that it?!!  That only took about 10 minutes.  Once I figured out what pieces go where, it was easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy. 

 

Quote

Maybe do this instead with bulleted lists?

• 1. Why is SC4 so completely awesome?
• 2. Is SC4 the best city-building game ever?
• 3. What makes the SC4 community so adoringly special?

That'll work.  I should have thought of that.

To answer your questions:

• 1.  The incredible people that keep this game going.
• 2.  It's certainly the best one that I've ever played.
• 3.  No trolls.

[rsc204 21,837]

47 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

Is that it?!!  That only took about 10 minutes.  Once I figured out what pieces go where, it was easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy. 

That's really the point of modern Flex-based NAM pieces, they are by their very nature, more flexible and easier to use. Glad you can see the benefits. Of course a lot of the legacy options are kept around because the new versions are missing some features/options or whatever. But eventually the plan is to retire them at some point down the line.

[That Retro Guy 321]

I've decided that Intersections should also include Highway Interchanges.  So that's the next challenge:

Build a full Interchange between 2 RHWs (I like the way they look) with a cloverleaf and on/off-ramps.

Wish me luck! 

[That Retro Guy 321]

Well, I got the two RHWs built and the on/offramps:

 

Time to go watch some more of @rsc204's awesome videos to see how to make a cloverleaf.  I know that this thing is huge.  I'm hoping after learning how to make a cloverleaf as compact as possible, I can move the on/off-ramps closer to the overpass.  Looking at the pic, I should be able to shorten the overpass itself.

I wish that the RHW had a pre-made Ground Highway Cloverleaf like the MHW does.  It's pretty cool looking.

[rsc204 21,837]

21 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

Time to go watch some more of @rsc204's awesome videos to see how to make a cloverleaf.

Yeah, I don't get much into the RHW side of things. Not to mention I don't know of a single Cloverleaf in the UK, they tend to be a magnet for weaving traffic, something the UK's infrastructure avoids whenever possible in terms of motorway design. In other words, I don't think I've ever made one myself or even considered it.

But, there are guides, however the MHO contains some neat special pieces for the 270 degree curves that make them a cinch to build comparatively. Take a gander in the MHO PDF manual for step-by-step instructions. Of course, you'll need to have this option installed (be warned it replaces the default game highways), to use it. But, it interfaces great with RHW and does some very neat things.

[That Retro Guy 321]

Sounds great!  I would love to have the MHO!  I hope that you don't mind that I downloaded the MHO PDF Manual.

Looking at the RHW pieces, I'm not exactly sure on how to even begin to make an on/off-ramp for the cloverleaf.

Question:  You mentioned on my Obsolete TuLep intersection that the Intersection piece itself needed to be placed so that the left turn lanes would work.  Is the same true for the Official FTL Intersection?

[That Retro Guy 321]

While fiddling around in my Sandbox, I realized (finally) that I was using pieces that were Deprecated and the proper pieces were Flex.  I really need to start reading the info 'balloons' that pop up when I select a piece. 

Anyway, check this out:

Am I missing a file?  There are a few of the selections like this.  When plopped, the piece appears like it should. 

Also, I figured out how to take in-game screenshots without anything else showing.  I went to my Radeon Control Panel and changed the keyboard shortcut so that Ctrl-Shift-S is available to enter Screenshot mode in SimCity 4. 

[rsc204 21,837]

14 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

You mentioned on my Obsolete TuLep intersection that the Intersection piece itself needed to be placed so that the left turn lanes would work.  Is the same true for the Official FTL Intersection?

Here's a comparison image showing the QuickTurn and FTL versions of the same intersection:

Note how the central intersection doesn't look right when made using the FTLs, that's because it's just the standard intersection, not the one with turn lanes. The key difference is that the one on the left has the extra traffic lane in the middle, continuing through the intersection for left turns, whereas on the right is an 'island' which isn't intended for traffic.

There is no piece to overplop in this scenario, you should use the QuickTurn pieces instead for these setups. This limitation only applies to multi-tile networks, the single-tile versions of the FTLs when dragged together will automatically create the relevant intersection for you. By and large, the QuickTurn setups cover all but some lesser used custom setups, so should be your goto.

10 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

Am I missing a file?  There are a few of the selections like this.  When plopped, the piece appears like it should. 

This is working as it should, rather than a preview of the piece itself, the preview has special textures which help users to ensure they are placing the right piece, in the right place.

[Tarkus 6,932]

If you're doing the "manual" FTL construction rather than using the QuickTurns, there is a set of "FLEX Intersection" pieces toward the end of that TAB Loop that are designed to cover the actual intersections themselves for the multi-tile networks.  Usually, for common things like an Avenue x Avenue intersection, the QuickTurn is going to be the easier solution, and being that it's all FLEX-based, it's still possible to draw the Slip Lanes out from it, and do everything else you could do with the FTLs with it (since it's basically a pre-fab FTL setup).

I did actually do a series of preview videos on the FTLs and QuickTurn system while they were in the late stages of development--aside from the menu placement (the QuickTurn system didn't have its own button then), nothing's changed with the basics on them since I made these, so they might be of use for you--here's a link to the whole playlist.  Part 3 (the shortest video of the bunch) covers QuickTurn, and even shows the construction of an Avenue setup with Slip Lanes. 

The NAM's documentation, which is included in the download, is also available all the time online, and may be useful to bookmark:

https://www.sc4devotion.com/namdoc/

There's a very detailed FTL section here.  It gets updated periodically as we write more.  A few spots throughout the whole documentation package are still a little outdated or not covered, but we're gradually improving that situation with each release.

As far as the RHW goes, now that we've largely transitioned it to FLEX-based items, there are indeed plans to create "QuickChanges" (similar to the FTL's QuickTurns).  There are already some partial "QuickChanges", and the future plan is to have "QuickChange Xpress" (QCX) as the next wave, which will include full interchanges.  We've made some prototypes (you can see one here), but those prototypes included a bunch of new components (coincidentally, new FTL setups and features that interact with the RHW) that are still needing quite a lot of TLC, so they've been put on hold for a bit.  Beyond that, the hardest part of that whole process is making preview models, which are going to get . . . rather complicated once we start doing larger RHW x RHW interchanges (the hope is to cover the popular setups).

-Tarkus

 

 

[That Retro Guy 321]

On 2/2/2021 at 3:44 PM, That Retro Guy said:

Sounds great!  I would love to have the MHO!

• Do I have to run the NAM39 Installer again to get the MHO?
• Or can I get it some other way?

[rsc204 21,837]

The best way to add the MHO is to re-run the installer, it's theoretically possible to add it manually, but even I a NAM developer who incidentally re-worked the entire structure of the MHO a few versions back, wouldn't bother to do it that way.

Unfortunately, this is another area where our new installer system is a little lacking, the old one would know what choices you made before when re-running it. Now, you must remove the old Network Addon Mod folder manually, then run the installer again, selecting every option you need.

But, if you move the old folder to the desktop, the installer options mirror those folders. So you can browse through them, if you forgot which options you had, just ticking the boxes in the installer, for the folders that exist. Afterwards, check the new install is how you want it, in the meantime keep the old Network Addon Mod folder, just in case you need to go back for some reason. When you are sure you don't, archive or otherwise delete it as preferred.

[That Retro Guy 321]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

Now, you must remove the old Network Addon Mod folder manually, then run the installer again, selecting every option you need.

So move that folder to the Desktop, and run the Installer again.  I didn't un-check any selection when I ran it last time, so I just make sure this time to check the MHO, right?

[rsc204 21,837]

12 minutes ago, That Retro Guy said:

I didn't un-check any selection when I ran it last time, so I just make sure this time to check the MHO, right?

Yup it would be that simple, since MHO isn't a default option.

[That Retro Guy 321]

The NAM is re-installed with the MHO!  Here's the Cloverleaf:

God, this thing is huge! 

It might get tweaked a bit here and there, but I call this a success.  Special thanks to the NAM team for designing and developing this incredible mod! 

I have the strange feeling of Deja Vu about this post.  (I posted almost the exact same post in Retro Rides Again!) 

One final question about the QuickTurn AvexAve Intersection.  If I wanted to extend the turn lane, how do I do that?

Now we can move on to a new city:  Terraform where I will attempt to learn how to make realistic-looking hills and rivers. 

[rsc204 21,837]

14 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

One final question about the QuickTurn AvexAve Intersection.  If I wanted to extend the turn lane, how do I do that?

The joy of Flex pieces is how they are, urm... flexible! Once you've placed the main piece, you can safely bulldoze the transition from Ave to Turning lane on one side. Then use a standard Ave FTL, placed at whatever distance you prefer away from the intersection, connect it all back up with the Avenue tool and you've a longer section for the Turning lanes. You can repeat this for the other directions as desired.

[That Retro Guy 321]

The Cloverleaf that I posted a pic of a couple of posts ago does have one problem.

It's only 2 lanes each way.

I have tried since then to make 3 lanes each way with RHW6-S but it didn't work.

I have tried plopping a few MHO Ground Highway pieces and then using a Width Transition piece (whatever they're called) to widen it to 3 lanes each way.  Didn't work.

Is there a way to make the cloverleaf with 3 lanes each direction?

[That Retro Guy 321]

Using my Paint Shop Pro 5, (that's not a typo.  The program is that old!  I love making images with it)

Anyways, I made an image of what I would love for my Cloverleaf to look like:

Obviously I couldn't make it look isometric (is that the word?) like in the game but this will have to do.

Let's assume that we're approaching the Cloverleaf from the South.

As the cars approach the Cloverleaf, there are 3 lanes.

The outside lane becomes the diagonal off-ramp (point A) while the other 2 lanes continue straight on a 2 lane highway.

The Cloverleaf on-ramp restores the outside lane (point B) until the next Cloverleaf off-ramp ends it again (point C).

The Highway remains 2 lanes until the diagonal on-ramp restores the outside lane for good (point D).

The diagonal on/off-ramps will be lined with trees.

Question:  Is this possible in-game with the MHO?

[rsc204 21,837]

10 hours ago, That Retro Guy said:

The outside lane becomes the diagonal off-ramp (point A) while the other 2 lanes continue straight on a 2 lane highway.

Time for more Ramp terminology...

So we’ve already looked at Type A and B ramps, there is a third type C, where the lane departing the highway is Fractionally Angled. Then we have D, E and F, which are the like the first three, but the lane exiting the highway results in a reduction of a lane from it. So in essence, you want a Type E ramp.

MHO doesn’t have any ramps like this, because it’s a two-lane system only. We’ll it does have one D1 and E1 ramp, but that splits the two lanes in 2xMiS only, I suspect you want 6 lanes to go into 4 at the interchange?  For that you’ll need the full on RHW, but you can mix and match elements from MHO with it as part of a build. Place a RHW-6S starter, then drag a section of RHW, placing a FlexRamp (E1 Type) to do this. If you integrate that into your interchange approaches, as soon as it converts to RHW-4, you can smoothly transition that part to MHO. Then if you transition (Width Transitions) back to RHW-4S away from the intersection, again you can revert to MHO there too. Which roughly speaking should get you where you want to be. 

[Haljackey 17,366]

I'd direct you to the Show Us Your Interchanges thread. There you can see the work done by others and get a better idea of where to start.

Like all things, practice makes perfect. I've been using the RHW mod for like 15 years and I still don't fully understand how everything works lol.

[rsc204 21,837]

For this specific scenario, I put together another quick and dirty video:

I may later add some audio and do it 'properly', but for now it should make the process clear. Look at that, I must be supremely motivated this evening or something, I dubbed some audio on top, hopefully this makes everything nice and clear.

[That Retro Guy 321]

On 2/13/2021 at 10:45 AM, rsc204 said:

Place a RHW-6S starter, then drag a section of RHW, placing a FlexRamp (E1 Type) to do this. If you integrate that into your interchange approaches, as soon as it converts to RHW-4, you can smoothly transition that part to MHO. Then if you transition (Width Transitions) back to RHW-4S away from the intersection, again you can revert to MHO there too. Which roughly speaking should get you where you want to be.

I'll give it a shot!  Thanks! 

 

On 2/13/2021 at 12:46 PM, Haljackey said:

Like all things, practice makes perfect.

Yup!  Hence the title of this thread.    I also checked out Show Us Your Interchanges! 

It's awesome what can be done with the Highway pieces and a little (or a lot) of creativity and ingenuity.  It boggles the mind! 

 

On 2/13/2021 at 12:55 PM, rsc204 said:

For this specific scenario, I put together another quick and dirty video:

Thank you for the video!  I appreciate it more than you realize.     (I wish there was a clapping hands emoji).

Btw, I changed the Cloverleaf pic in my post.  I forgot to 'sign' it.  I'm weird like that. 

[That Retro Guy 321]

It's lucky for me that no one can actually hear the language that's coming out of my mouth right now.

So I'm building the Cloverleaf as instructed by the wonderful people here at SimTropolis.

I get the on/off-ramps made with the E1 ramps doing their job and the ground highway converting from RHW6 to RHW4.  No problem.

The only thing left to do is build the Cloverleaf itself.

Here's a pic:

When I try to build the entrance/exit ramps on the Elevated Highway, it won't let me! 

It's enough to make me wanna scream! 

What did I do wrong this time? 

[rsc204 21,837]

It looks to me like the overpass isn't long enough, if you try to drag ramps too close to the height transitions, you'll have problems.

You probably also want to be using the actual RHW for the overpass, not the MHO. Note that whilst the two will play nicely together, they are still separate networks. For example, the Flex Ramps/Height/Width pieces won't work on MHO. Likewise the ploppable pieces for MHO won't work with the RHW networks. Generally speaking, RHW items are at the top of the highways menu and those items below the Ground/Elevated Highway menu items are the MHO pieces.

[That Retro Guy 321]

7 hours ago, rsc204 said:

For example, the Flex Ramps/Height/Width pieces won't work on MHO. Likewise the ploppable pieces for MHO won't work with the RHW networks.

Since you've said that I should use RHW for the Overpass, and that ploppable pieces for MHO won't work with RHW:

Questions:

• 1.  How do I make the on/off-ramps for the Overpass?
• 2.  Are there RHW Flex Ramps (L2) to use on the Overpass?

Forget the questions; I found them.

I think that I'm going to have to start over again because I can place the on/off ramps but now the Cloverleaf Curve won't place.

I re-watched the video, and I finally noticed that you said that I need to bulldoze all of the Starter pieces that I use to fully stabilize the Highway.

I really need to start paying attention to these things. 

This time, I'll plop a Street piece or something to mark exactly where the Starter piece is because I have no idea where they are now.

  Edited February 15, 2021 by That Retro Guy  
Found the Flex ramps needed.