Are donations for BATs kosher?

[LivingInThePast 364]

OK, so recently I was reading about a laid-off Maxis employee creating C:S objects and getting paid for it (link) as he creates buildings for the community. Seeing as how I'm currently between jobs myself, I was thinking maybe I could do something like that for SimCity 4. Obviously, that's not going to happen yet considering I haven't released any products, but does the SC4 TOS allow for any profit off of BATting? I wouldn't be "Buy my building, that's $2 per download" (that's obviously wrong) but rather a service like "Pay me $50 and I'll make Building X for you, which I'll share with everybody". I don't think it would be, after all, Simtropolis has been selling CD collections of new objects for years (well, technically under "Donate $X for our server maintenance and we'll give you a free disc") and EA hasn't come down on them yet, so technically I could do something like that for SimCity 4 in theory, right? ...Wrong?

[rsc204 21,806]

I'm sure some people may be willing to pay you money to create objects, but I wouldn't rely on it. Also, it take a seriously long time to make quality models, so the payment will be a pittance for the work you do. The C:S community is not as well established as SC4, honestly, if you are chasing paper, you're better off offering this to C:S players than SC4 players.

[Fantozzi 4,067]

First make shure - if you use maxis tools that EA explicitly allows this (a commercial use).  

I like your business model- doing requests for cash. There might be users willing to pay, if you're doing the bat they've been dreaming of for years.

But I think users would expect some garantees regarding quality. And the risk they're disappointed is high. You know, thinks look always better in our imagination. So it would be hard to satisfy their expectations.

The community is quite petted with many excellent models. They wouldn't pay for average stuff. So rsc204 is probably right: a week of work for 50$?

What about a crowd funding model? You offer to do popular bats and if a certain amount is reached, they will be realized.

If sc4-batting goes down I even would suggest a similar thing to Simtropolis. Would be a good platform for this kind of crowd funding. And maybe the site itself ould participate with a little fee.

[matias93 7,535]

I knew I've seen this idea before: JasonCW did paid BAT requests on 2014, which resulted on two brazilian pencil towers:

In that case, it wasn't crowdfounding, but just one (initially) anonymous requester paying the full price, and the BAT being published for all after it was completed.

[rsc204 21,806]

9 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

First make shure - if you use maxis tools that EA explicitly allows this (a commercial use).  

Good point. I'm 100% sure now you mention it, the EULA explicitly prohibits this. Although I doubt EA's lawyers would ever notice or come after you, but technically, it's in there:

"E. Your Contributions.  In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant EA an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services including the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions.  You hereby waive any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to EA’s and other players’ use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law.  The license grant to EA, and the above waiver of any applicable moral rights, survives any termination of this License."

i.e. Anything you create is owned by EA, not you. Thus any money you make should be sent to EA, since you don't own the goods you are profiting from.

Of course, to further muddy the waters, there is this:

"11.  Governing Law. If you reside in a Member State of the European Union: (i) the laws of England, excluding its conflicts-of-law rules, govern this License and your use of the Application; and (ii) you expressly agree that exclusive jurisdiction for any claim or action arising out of or relating to this License and/or your use of the Application shall be the Courts of England, and you expressly consent to the exercise of personal jurisdiction of such courts.  If you reside elsewhere: (i) the laws of the State of California, excluding its conflicts-of-law rules, govern this License and/or your use of the Application; and (ii) you expressly agree that for claims and disputes not subject to section 14, below, exclusive jurisdiction for any claim or action arising out of or relating to this License and/or your use of the Application shall be the federal or state courts that govern San Mateo County, California, and you expressly consent to the exercise of personal jurisdiction of such courts.  Please note that your conduct may also be subject to other local, state, national, and international laws.  The parties agree that the UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods (Vienna, 1980) shall not apply to this License or to any dispute or transaction arising out of this License."

Wherein EA's legal team have made the classic contract error. It is a fundamental legal principle that any contract must comply with the laws of the country the product is sold in. Additionally it is also a fundamental legal principle that any contract that includes terms that are illegal, is thereby rendered null and void completely. So by telling me that a product bought in Germany is subject the rules of the UK legal system, EA have just invalidated the entire contract, I can now do whatever I please. Of course, EA's legal team would have me bankrupt long before I could defend myself in such a scenario. But contracts for software are one of the biggest jokes their is.

 

[Fantozzi 4,067]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

i.e. Anything you create is owned by EA, not you. Thus any money you make should be sent to EA, since you don't own the goods you are profiting from.

YA! And that's the point. EA never would prosecute a little modder ... all those 'make 'em naked mods' f.e. - who did care about them except some moralists? But when money is involved, it's like lighting up a cannon. That's what they are for. Making money.  $$$ - that's the signal for the big sleeping beast to bestir.

[rsc204 21,806]

Well to be clear, although the EULA states clearly anything created for the game is property of EA to do with as they desire. They have explicitly given the community permission to make assets with their tools and even redistribute their own files and IP within certain constraints. I think there is a huge gulf between those at Maxis who really wanted to do what's right by their game and EA, who are as you say, only interested in profit.

The irony being that Maxis made a game that's still selling well and has been hugely successful in the long term. Whereas EA tried to cash-cow the whole thing with SimCity (2013) and failed miserably to gain traction long term. For example, Amazon in the UK are selling SC4 for between £5 and £10. SimCity (2013) is listed for £6.99. Says a lot that.

[Fantozzi 4,067]

I'm pretty shure they didn't close maxis for 'creativity' reasons, maxis always was a fantasies breeding ground. But then, what argument remains to shut down a think tank. 'Bright Future' the studio that made the Football Manager for EA was also shut down.

But I'm tired of this discussion. EA never will be a non profit organisation. It is what it is. We all know that. And making money - well, me too, I try to do that. They have success, me not. But I'm too proud to be jealous. So I try to ignore EA as good as I can. And that's all I can say about it.

[rsc204 21,806]

As a long-time gamer, it's not a situation unique to EA, so many good developers, with some of the most creative titles under their belts, were either closed or destroyed by their takeover by large corporations. Bizarre Creations, Rare and Twisted Pixel are just some of them that I've had to mourn over the years. Ultimately, my desire to keep playing new games has been all but destroyed by recent developments in the industry. But then if Pokémon Go is the best that gaming can be, perhaps I'm just being a luddite?

I'll take my Dreamcast to the grave .

 

[madhatter106 3,903]

10 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Wherein EA's legal team have made the classic contract error. It is a fundamental legal principle that any contract must comply with the laws of the country the product is sold in. Additionally it is also a fundamental legal principle that any contract that includes terms that are illegal, is thereby rendered null and void completely.

Unless the contract or agreement includes a severability clause elsewhere within.  Which I would assume EA would include to circumvent this issue...

[rsc204 21,806]

55 minutes ago, madhatter106 said:

Unless the contract or agreement includes a severability clause elsewhere within.  Which I would assume EA would include to circumvent this issue...

I don't know about the US. But in the UK judges can take a dim view on such clauses. Of course the only way to know for certain would be to test it in court on a case by case basis. But generally speaking when a contract has knowingly been written with invalid clauses, you've a very good chance of invalidating the whole. If however EA could argue they were unaware that the specific clause would be illegal, that's another story. I couldn't honestly say if here in Germany the same would be true. But a lot of the EU laws are similar, if only because EU law supersedes national ones. Given that you can't pretend not to know that German law applies to products sold in Germany, again I think you'd have a very good chance of overturning the whole.

[MushyMushy 3,617]

We've been talking about the EULA for SC4 and its related things, but what about the modeling software? A lot of people use 3DS max over gmax now (and I'd wager people probably wouldn't be racing to form a line to pay for models from gmax - not that gmax models look bad at all, it's just that 3DS can do a lot more), and I'm quite certain we're all using the student license to use the program. I'm pretty sure I remember from skimming the terms of the license before I went through with it that you're not supposed to be using the software for money (makes sense - we're using it for free after all). I'm not sure how they worded it or where it is, but I'm very sure there's something in there about that.

In the long run, I'd say you'd probably make more money (still not a sustainable amount at all) by making models for C:S. They generally seem to be quite a bit less detailed due to the game being actual 3D so you should, in theory, be able to make them faster.

[rsc204 21,806]

A good point, if you have a student licence you may indeed face the wrath of Autodesk's lawyers. When I was in college, I used student versions of Visual Studio to program. I also have friends using some very expensive musical software under similar terms. In both cases, the files created with student versions are watermarked. If you get caught selling them or using them for commercial purposes, you will quickly find yourself in trouble.

As for using 3DS max to make SC4 models, since you have to use SC4BAT to render the LODs and create the model file itself. In addition to using Maxis tools to create the exemplars and lots. Which covers PIM-X too, since it's based on proprietary EA IP, despite not being EA's own application. So you haven't quite out-manoeuvred the problem entirely there either. Not to mention, 3DS Max will set you back a hefty monthly fee or about $1,200 up front.

I also think that the SC4 community is more averse to the idea of charging than the C:S one. But even so, I doubt the ex-Maxis developer is earning enough from his efforts to live comfortably or match a proper salary. The other advantage with C:S or just generally most 3D games, is that you can use generic tools, so open source alternatives like Blender are sufficient to make models. SC4 models will always need SC4BAT, because the requirements of the isometric views limit you to using it. In theory, a script for 3DS max could incorporate this, after all, that's all SC4BAT is, scripts for gMax to render with the specific needs of SC4.

[MushyMushy 3,617]

@rsc204 - I agree with you about all of those points. One nitpicky thing though - I think 3DS max costs more. I'm pretty sure the product that I see for sale around $1,200-$1,400 or so is a one-year license. They seem to charge around $200 a month for a rental license, but the perpetual one is somewhere in the $3,600-$4,000 range from what I saw. Apparently they've said that they might can the perpetual license since they can make much more money off of people continuously paying for the software forever. Actually, I suspect many companies will do that at some point since is more lucrative. Pretty awful...

[rsc204 21,806]

Yeah that sounds about right. The thing is, if you are making skyscrapers or multi-million dollar videogames with it, that's probably a small price to pay. Like Abode and its Creative Cloud, Autodesk are in a unique position to charge what they like, since they have a the de-facto products of their kind for sale.

[Fantozzi 4,067]

Well, gratefully, with Autodesk behaving so, it rips up some space in the market for competitors with cheaper products. On the long term this will mean considerable competitive products and that means for us consumers: more choice. At the end we'll have to say thanks to Autodesk that they are so money-grubbing.

[markussaage 762]

10 hours ago, rsc204 said:

 Not to mention, 3DS Max will set you back a hefty monthly fee or about $1,200 up front.

That's the reason I don't get into modelling... I cannot affort this kind of software unfortunately. Is there any other decent piece of software out there, that works with GMAX in a good quality?

The fact, that after 13 years this game is still sold and played by millions of players, shows the quality, Maxis Studios had back in those days. True, it is a buggy game, but without our community and the effort, everybody puts in their creations, it would long be dead. But it's not, right?!
And the fact, that Simcity 2013 is sold for 7 bucks says a lot about that quality. I was very disappointed, that this game didn't came out the way most of us hoped for. Complex as our beloved SC4 and in 3D. All the crap with online mode and playing online, being online 24/7... I think, we'll be good for the next 100 years, if we, the community, do, what we want to do and keep this game alive! And EA... They're are a money-making-monster, only interested in the shareholder value. Nowadays every company is... Like Autodesk, too... All about the money... I am curious, how long it'll take, until Colossal Order is bought by a big studio and closed shortly after that?!
 

Kind regards!

[rsc204 21,806]

2 hours ago, markussaage said:

That's the reason I don't get into modelling... I cannot affort this kind of software unfortunately. Is there any other decent piece of software out there, that works with GMAX in a good quality?

That's why most people take the Student editions for free, honestly Autodesk don't really care if you are a student or not, so the morality of that one is really up to you. The issue with using other programs is that eventually the model must be put through SC4BAT, so that makes 3DS Max the logical choice. Since many of the modellers using other software have to eventually convert their models in 3DS Max, just so they can get it into SC4BAT. Which is pretty convoluted when you can just use 3DS max in the first place.

2 hours ago, markussaage said:

that Simcity 2013 is sold for 7 bucks says a lot about that quality

I'd happily pay the 20€ for the set with all the addons, but I won't do this whilst it requires Origin. Despite all it's flaws, I think there is something there worth trying.

[markussaage 762]

Just now, rsc204 said:

Just now, markussaage said:

That's the reason I don't get into modelling... I cannot affort this kind of software unfortunately. Is there any other decent piece of software out there, that works with GMAX in a good quality?

That's why most people take the Student editions for free, honestly Autodesk don't really care if you are a student or not, so the morality of that one is really up to you. The issue with using other programs is that eventually the model must be put through SC4BAT, so that makes 3DS Max the logical choice. Since many of the modellers using other software have to eventually convert their models in 3DS Max, just so they can get it into SC4BAT. Which is pretty convoluted when you can just use 3DS max in the first place.

Just now, markussaage said:

that Simcity 2013 is sold for 7 bucks says a lot about that quality

I'd happily pay the 20€ for the set with all the addons, but I won't do this whilst it requires Origin. Despite all it's flaws, I think there is something there worth trying.

Don't you need kind of a university subscription that you need to send to Autodesk to confirm that you are actually a student?!

And yes, I bought the CD version of Simcity 2013 after it was released, but I've never installed and activated it and now the CD still is in Germany... Never would buy it from Origin though. I hate that DRM crap...

Kind regards!

[rsc204 21,806]

Not really, you can just tell them you are a student, there are some restrictions on the e-mail address you use to register for it, but it's not hard to get.

Doesn't the CD/Disk version require Origin to activate it? If not, I'd be seriously interested in getting a copy.

[markussaage 762]

Just now, rsc204 said:

Not really, you can just tell them you are a student, there are some restrictions on the e-mail address you use to register for it, but it's not hard to get.

Doesn't the CD/Disk version require Origin to activate it? If not, I'd be seriously interested in getting a copy.

I don't know actually... Never even opened the CD case, still sealed in a box back in Germany. But, yes, I guess, Origin was a requirement for installation... Never did, so this key is still unused and valid... Hopefully...

Well, thanks for the idea to the Autodesk website, I'll definitely will take a look at it.

Update: Did try to register with an .com email address and it worked! Versions 2014 to 2017 available. Is there anybody who can say which version works with BAT4Max?

Kind regards!

[Fantozzi 4,067]

4 hours ago, markussaage said:

That's the reason I don't get into modelling... I cannot affort this kind of software unfortunately. Is there any other decent piece of software out there, that works with GMAX in a good quality?

I like this question. Seems tome it points in the right direction Sadly I'm a newbie on this field. I think it's because SimFox wrote a plugin for Autodesk that enhanced bat creating. So SC4 bat creating is focused on this software. But - as I'm a little chld in this questions - I would assume that every program that is cabable of export 3ds-files is good for making SC4 things/working with g-max. And that's the next stumbling block.

You know, the really big software companies became big by creating proprietary formats. Windows (bmp, wav) took this way, apple and adobe  (pdf) and this formats are really important for their business as everyone who uses them with its own software needs a licence. And with this licences they really make money.

And to to get a licence to export your model files in 3ds - I guess, this wouldn't be cheap. And so most of the software makers prefer open formats like collada or obj.

If you look on the market - I think the most interesting is Blender. Blender is open source and can export 3ds. I don't have the knowledge to tell, if it's 3ds that works with gmax, I don't know how a free software got managed to have a 3ds export - but apart from Autodesk software, this probably is the most interesting, Somewhere I read, people eported succesfully from blender to gmax.

At least, the problem isn't 3d-software, there is plenty and good on the market. The problem is g-max, or lets say - that nobody really cares to support a gaming software that was released in 2003. The problem, as far as I understood, is to bring 3d-models into  SC4.

Which becomes more and more difficult as 3d modelling software advances rapidly but SC4 and its tools remains the same. The gap is growing. You know formats are held compatible but they change the same as software in general does. May come the day a new 3ds is released the old software can't read anymore. And then, sooner or later, batting will find an end with the old batters and their old software and their old machines losing interest or dying away.

 

 

[markussaage 762]

Just now, Fantozzi said:

I like this question. Seems tome it points in the right direction Sadly I'm a newbie on this field. I think it's because SimFox wrote a plugin for Autodesk that enhanced bat creating. So SC4 bat creating is focused on this software. But - as I'm a little chld in this questions - I would assume that every program that is cabable of export 3ds-files is good for making SC4 things/working with g-max. And that's the next stumbling block.

You know, the really big software companies became big by creating proprietary formats. Windows (bmp, wav) took this way, apple and adobe  (pdf) and this formats are really important for their business as everyone who uses them with its own software needs a licence. And with this licences they really make money.

And to to get a licence to export your model files in 3ds - I guess, this wouldn't be cheap. And so most of the software makers prefer open formats like collada or obj.

If you look on the market - I think the most interesting is Blender. Blender is open source and can export 3ds. I don't have the knowledge to tell, if it's 3ds that works with gmax, I don't know how a free software got managed to have a 3ds export - but apart from Autodesk software, this probably is the most interesting, Somewhere I read, people eported succesfully from blender to gmax.

At least, the problem isn't 3d-software, there is plenty and good on the market. The problem is g-max, or lets say - that nobody really cares to support a gaming software that was released in 2003. The problem, as far as I understood, is to bring 3d-models into  SC4.

Which becomes more and more difficult as 3d modelling software advances rapidly but SC4 and its tools remains the same. The gap is growing. You know formats are held compatible but they change the same as software in general does. May come the day a new 3ds is released the old software can't read anymore. And then, sooner or later, batting will find an end with the old batters and their old software and their old machines losing interest or dying away.

 

 

Yeah, that's my fear, too...

[rsc204 21,806]

3 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

At least, the problem isn't 3d-software, there is plenty and good on the market. The problem is g-max, or lets say - that nobody really cares to support a gaming software that was released in 2003. The problem, as far as I understood, is to bring 3d-models into  SC4.

gMax was actually all tied into the grand plan of 3DS Max very nicely. The idea was that companies would sign a deal with Autodesk, in fact I think they were still Discreet back then. EA/Maxis probably used 3DS Max themselves, but they licenced gMax for end users and included SC4BAT as a set of scripts to work with it. This way, it serves as an entry level for people getting into 3D modelling. Whilst 3DS Max is more powerful and has a larger set of tools, gMax can be pretty decent too.

Your real problem though is the isometric view. So you could use any 3D modelling application you liked. But to render the LODs and create an SC4 Model file absolutely requires SC4Bat. Of course someone could probably change that, but I don't think anyone with the skills is still around. Not to mention, I think re-using SC4 BAT was simply a more logical choice. What BAT4MAX does in essence, is setup an environment to render the textures with all the necessary parts required for SC4 Models. Those are exported to BMPs, which have scripts to compile them into the model files as FSH files with the correct IDs. That part is separate from the scripts of BAT4MAX, so could be easily reused.

Thus all it would take to render from another 3D modelling application, would be a set of scripts to setup the camera & lighting rigs and render the textures in the necessary isometric views based on the 5 zooms and 4 rotations SC4 uses. SC4BAT would likely still be a part of this process, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.

If you simply create your model in another application, but export it as a 3DS file (most of them support it), you loose any quality benefits of gMax. Because you are rendering with gMax still. Whereas BAT4MAX allows you to render in the higher quality 3DS Max.

One real concern however, is that BAT4MAX is not being updated. As newer versions of 3DS max are released, issues are cropping up for many users. This is especially a problem for those using the Student licences. Because those must be renewed every three years, and you can't renew the old versions, you must upgrade to keep your licence. There is a fear that one day, without someone with SimFox's knowledge stepping forward, SC4BAT will become the only option once more for rendering. Considering the quality differences, that would be a step backwards in many respects.

However, when you look at the work by some, @madhatter106 comes to mind, you can still get great results with SC4BAT too. I've found the superior quality of 3DS a burden of sorts, because my texture skills simply aren't good enough. Where SC4BAT was good at hiding imperfections, 3DS Max makes them all too obvious. As such, I've not managed to get much work finished since I switched over. Starting out, you might find SC4BAT is a better solution. The skills learned translate directly to 3DS Max too, so if you later decide to move, you won't have to re-learn everything anew.

Interesting fact I came across the other day; the development code name for 3DS Max 2013, was SimCity* .

*assuming you can trust Wikipedia.

[Jasoncw 11,840]

In my personal workflow (and imo should be the standard workflow) the online time a Maxis program is used is to make a blank .SC4Model file. The actual BAT itself is done in 3ds Max with BAT4Max, and the modding and lotting is done in PIMX and the Reader (plus other community-made programs for other tasks). I don't think PIMX uses anything of Maxis's. It seems like it's basically just a user friendly UI for editing hex values. 

Gmax/BAT is used for generating .SC4Model files, but those scripts are just text files that you can open and look at and edit yourself. It would be entirely possible to recreate the script for 3ds Max to completely eliminate Gmax from the workflow. As far as I know it's not a technically difficult task, but we don't have anyone around now who knows how to do that stuff. And back when we did it didn't make much sense because it would be a really big headache to redo the script, just to replace the Gmax part which literally takes less than 2 minutes to finish. Still it would be a great thing to have, since we're actually under perpetual threat of losing gmax. 

Gmax was discontinued in 2005 and the only reason we have access to it is because TurboSquid has conveniently not deleted it from their website, which is very kind of them. If they removed it we might still be able to get by by sharing the program ourselves along with the crack to bypass registration (the crack, btw, is stickied to the top of the gmax forum on the TurboSquid site and seems to be the official solution to registration problems.  ). 

 

As far as paying for BATs, I think the most important thing is that the BAT ultimately ends up being freely available to everyone, and that the community experience is not changed into a commercial experience. I've been taking paid requests and it's worked out very well, and as far as I can tell it has not had any negative effects. 

But I have to warn anyone thinking about it that the economics of it don't really work out. Think about how much you think someone might be willing to pay for a BAT, and then figure that a BAT might take 30-40 hours to complete. The hourly rate is extremely low. 

[Fantozzi 4,067]

6 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Thus all it would take to render from another 3D modelling application, would be a set of scripts to setup the camera & lighting rigs and render the textures in the necessary isometric views based on the 5 zooms and 4 rotations SC4 uses. SC4BAT would likely still be a part of this process, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.

[...]

Interesting fact I came across the other day; the development code name for 3DS Max 2013, was SimCity* .

*assuming you can trust Wikipedia.

Sorry for beeing a newbie on this field, but on the other hand this is realy intresting. To skip SC4BAT entirely there would also be the need for an export script into *.sc4model, did I understand that right? Just a mind play - if I would pay a programmer for doing this for Blender, so the rendering would be done in Cycles (which, I suppose should be give roundabout the same render quality as 3dsmax)- what a programmer I had to look for, what skills should he have?

6 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

As far as paying for BATs, I think the most important thing is that the BAT ultimately ends up being freely available to everyone, and that the community experience is not changed into a commercial experience. I've been taking paid requests and it's worked out very well, and as far as I can tell it has not had any negative effects. 

Did you ever think about the crowd funding idear? I mean, me alone, probably wasn't able to finance bats. But if we were in 10 or 20 it would be easier. What I like about the crowd founding idear - those models, most users are interested in would be realized. So even if money is involved, I don't think it was a bad thing for the community. As you say, if at the end the model is available for all - I see advantages for both, the players and the batters. And as time changes and the golden days are over - instead of reminisce in the forums the whole day, maybe searching for new ways is an alternative.

[rsc204 21,806]

10 hours ago, Jasoncw said:

I don't think PIMX uses anything of Maxis's

Well I think it probably does, frankly just making files in a compatible proprietary format is enough here, technically. But I'm pretty sure it references the content in the SC4 DATs too.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to take money for models, but you are walking a wobbly line based on the EULA. The reality is probably that no one's going to know or care. EA's lawyers would only be interested in someone once they are making enough money to incentivise them into action.

4 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

And as time changes and the golden days are over - instead of reminisce in the forums the whole day, maybe searching for new ways is an alternative.

I think such one off commissions are OK, but I really don't like the idea of trying to turn this into a commercialised practise of some kind. Having been unemployed for three years, I could sure do with some money, but I prefer the idea of community instead of capitalism. We all share knowledge and help each other, so when I create using the assistance of others, I feel I'm giving something back. If someone offered me money to make a mod, I would most likely decline. Its seriously unlikely you could pay me enough to motivate me to create something, I didn't care about personally.

Isn't the real problem simply that we don't have such a large community as we once did? In that respect, if I were chasing paper as it were, there are plenty of better ways for a modeller to make money elsewhere. I'm not really sure that offering to pay for models would really be the key to drive new content. You also need to find a group of people who all want the same items to pay for them, although that could probably be determined through a poll/vote. Still it's an interesting idea.

What about those making money to create a model, if they asked me for help, shouldn't I get a cut if I assist them to create? Once you monetise something, you change the state of play.

I think for content to continue to flourish, we need first to address some major problems re: our history. A lot of the epic CJ's that inspired people are gone for good, or the pictures are. Far too many tutorials are badly organised and also suffer from lost images/formatting problems. We'd also be much better off if we made content easier to find and install for the average joe, who may not be that computer savvy. I'm not talking about installers here. I think we do have within the community the skill set to make something that manages your plugins folder for users. But, every time it's bought up, it's shot down because it requires going through re-indexing everything to work with it. I don't for one second under-estimate the amount of work here, but that will only get smaller if we make a start on such a transformational project. The longer we leave it on the shelf, the harder it becomes to do anything about it.

4 hours ago, Fantozzi said:

if I would pay a programmer for doing this for Blender, so the rendering would be done in Cycles (which, I suppose should be give roundabout the same render quality as 3dsmax)- what a programmer I had to look for, what skills should he have?

Writing scripts is only partly based on a programming skill set. Ideally, you'd want to find someone who is an expert in the application itself, with at the very least a good aptitude for any scripting language it uses.

For example, I'm reasonably confident if I knew more about 3DS Max, I'd have the ability to work with the scripts. What holds me back is that I'm simply not familiar enough with the inner workings of the application, to understand how to go about it. But I've plenty of experience writing far more complex code than scripts in other areas. So the #1 requirement is an expert in modelling, not necessarily a programmer.

[Fantozzi 4,067]

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

Isn't the real problem simply that we don't have such a large community as we once did? In that respect, if I were chasing paper as it were, there are plenty of better ways for a modeller to make money elsewhere. I'm not really sure that offering to pay for models would really be the key to drive new content. You also need to find a group of people who all want the same items to pay for them, although that could probably be determined through a poll/vote. Still it's an interesting idea.

If I have a quick look at Madhatters last bats - almost 900 downs in two weeks. If I look on the activities in the city journals, in the "Show us your ..." threads, there is still a good amount of people having fun with SC4. We had a big surprise at the beginning of this year with the SC4fix that enhances game experience in a way we never expected.

No, no - there is still some cooking.

But on one thing I agree completely. With all the custom content, it isn't easy anymore to get into it. Me, I had time to learn things. I became familiar with my plugin-folder as it grew slowly over the years. But for a newbe it must be really hard to find orientation - where is what, what is it good for?

And the tutorials for beginners - with all respect to their creatores - they focus on some aspects and they provide good information, but there is a lack in some structure, an overall introducion with many links, that holds things together. Some reflections on the pedagogic things like different learning curves and learning expectations. I thought to write some fondly introducion (something that invites to play the game, not that authoriatan style - you must do this and do that), well, something more colourfull, schoolbook like, pedagogical, also younger people could enjoy.  But as I'm no nativ english speaker, I  would need some editors.  I write 'some editors' because I strongly believe, the more feedback you'll get as an author, the better the final result can be. 

-

If I listen to the bottom of I heart, I'm unshure if crowd funding would work just for the reason you give. Me, I want european buildings others would like to see japanese bats and so on. I think we first would need a batter that was willing to take part in an experiment and simply test how the response would be. 

The other way would be to 'renovate' the creation process - so batting becomes more attractive for the next generation. But with this long list of conditions and the needed knowledge in different (old) applications and to find exactly the small path on which they work together, I can understand, that many say - nah, not me. I didn't do it myself. I can only say, what I heared about it. And what I hear is - batting is pain.

So I gained the impression, people like Jasoncw must be excellent husbands. They must have the right mixture of endurance and pacience for a marriage.

[rsc204 21,806]

37 minutes ago, Fantozzi said:

But for a newbe it must be really hard to find orientation - where is what, what is it good for?

I know where of you speak. Having only really gotten into the game over the last 2-3 years. Prior to that I had only found the vanilla game a year beforehand. The first 6-12 months were really hard work when I started using mods, there is so much to learn. Tutorials are a great start, but it would be so much better if we could make life simpler. I think a lot of people see great cities, but when they realise the work involved to setup their game, they move on .

[madhatter106 3,903]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:56 AM, Fantozzi said:

If I have a quick look at Madhatters last bats - almost 900 downs in two weeks. If I look on the activities in the city journals, in the "Show us your ..." threads, there is still a good amount of people having fun with SC4. We had a big surprise at the beginning of this year with the SC4fix that enhances game experience in a way we never expected.

No, no - there is still some cooking.

Taking myself as listed in the example above, I am probably an anomaly - the only reason for those 900 downloads was because I released a new pack of stuff, and most of those downloads were probably that.  (There is likely a little bump in my other stuff, too.)  But you will notice that the gaps between pack release dates are longer and longer on these more recent offerings.

To follow along with the "cooking" metaphor, there is still some action in the kitchen, but some of the old chefs have moved on long ago or are cooking at a much slower rater - we aren't seeing nearly as many uploads as, say, five or six years ago.  We probably had pots on all four burners of the SC4 stove back then - we might have a kettle on one or two now.  Which is not to say that the quality is down; I like to think that it's either the same or the bar has been raised.  But I would venture that the quantity of custom content being released has slowed, which is entirely natural considering all the other stuff that has come along since (city builders, as well as other stuff).