Nilo7's Workshop (DC transit)

[DCMetro34 576]

Hiya, Skyliners! 

I've been playing Skylines since right around when it came out.  In SimCity 4, I created a good bit of custom content, and I'm back at it again in C:S.  The upcoming Metro Overhaul mod has really gotten me excited about creating some hometown trains for the game.  So, I'm going to be focusing on some transit vehicles and stations from the Washington, D.C. area.  Here's some schematics of some of the vehicles in the system; I do plan to make many of them, including some earlier Metrorail cars in the series.

First, I am modeling the new WMATA 7000 Series trains (the bottom one in the above image), which are being introduced to the D.C. Metrorail system as they phase out some of their older models.  Here is my take so far.  I would love some advice on what details to model and what to bake into the normals.  As of now, I am thinking about just using normals for the windows, doors, and the lights.

I am also working on a subway station model that is a common design for many D.C. stations, but I will wait to show that because I'd like to focus on the vehicle modeling, since that is my weakest skill.

Thank you for viewing, commenting, feedbacking.  

And thank you very much to @Mr_Maison for giving me tips and encouraging me to start a thread.

Edit: For the record, my username used to be DCMetro34, so some of you may know me by that. 

[Darf 1,439]

Hey, welcome to the gang! Haven´t done any vehicles myself, but your sc4 creations speak for themselves.  As for this project, I would cut the detail underneath, as you won't be seeing it anyways. I also might suggest using less segments on the top, you could use a smoothing group to cover that up.

[Judazzz 1,936]

I'm of no use when it comes to modeling, so I'll just stick with welcoming you aboard!

[DCMetro34 576]

8 hours ago, Darf said:

Hey, welcome to the gang! Haven´t done any vehicles myself, but your sc4 creations speak for themselves.  As for this project, I would cut the detail underneath, as you won't be seeing it anyways. I also might suggest using less segments on the top, you could use a smoothing group to cover that up.

@Darf Thank you very much for the welcome and the SC4 compliment!   Wasn't expecting that, honestly, I didn't realize my work was too revered in the SC4 realm.   

Well, in this render, I added more details to the bottom.   Just to see how it looks, though.  So, you don't think you'd be able to see it in game?  I mean, it may not factor in to the LOD at all, but up close, I thought it might be neat.  I'll see how it goes poly and tri wise.

7 hours ago, Judazzz said:

I'm of no use when it comes to modeling, so I'll just stick with welcoming you aboard!

@Judazzz Thank you very much, as well!  You are active in the forum and your feedback is always welcome and of good use.  

 

So, I have a little quick update tonight.  I redid the front of the train front and executed the mesh editing better there.  I also redid the roof to make it not only smoother but also have fewer polys and tris.  I modeled a few more details on the bottom, but as I mentioned above, I am on the fence about whether to keep them.  I'm pretty much done with adding new geometry, for the most part.  Just trimming polys and tris here and there and maybe removing those undercarriage details.  I'm currently at 1,542 polys and tris each.  This is the train engine, so there will only be about 1,000 for each trailer, at most, because the front of the car is flat.  I am not sure of what limits or guidelines for polys and tris there are in C:S, but I saw some people in the Paradox forum talking about having 2,500 - 3,000 for automobiles, so I think I am golden.

Onto to UVW mapping. 

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Hi, I started to post this in your thread but decided to PM you on my current thoughts.

Depending on how the normals come out in game, it won't hurt to give the doors and windows a touch of mesh detail. The game is not very friendly with texture details and you might want to "push" some details via mesh. The game averages pixels and it is hard to get crisp edges with normals alone. If the door for example is a box or will only produce 2-10 more tris, it's not worth it to depend on the game's normal rendering unless it's an area of a model that's no big deal. At 1,542 tris, you still have more room. There are plenty of trains on the workshop with FAR more tris  (including mine which I am currently trying to reduce). Of course less is better I agree but I see some trains in the workshop that look great from a distance but the "flatness" of the car details is disappointing imo.  Also keep in mind that windows at night that are part of a flat surface where the windows are not separate tend to have bleeding at the edges due to the pixel averaging the game does. Just giving you a heads up.

One more question... So far I think the car you have looks spot on shape wise but is a bit short compared to the references. How long did you make them?

I hope I'm not coming off critical. Just want to help a fellow train enthusiast.

[DCMetro34 576]

1 hour ago, Mr_Maison said:

Hi, I started to post this in your thread but decided to PM you on my current thoughts.

Depending on how the normals come out in game, it won't hurt to give the doors and windows a touch of mesh detail. The game is not very friendly with texture details and you might want to "push" some details via mesh. The game averages pixels and it is hard to get crisp edges with normals alone. If the door for example is a box or will only produce 2-10 more tris, it's not worth it to depend on the game's normal rendering unless it's an area of a model that's no big deal. At 1,542 tris, you still have more room. There are plenty of trains on the workshop with FAR more tris  (including mine which I am currently trying to reduce). Of course less is better I agree but I see some trains in the workshop that look great from a distance but the "flatness" of the car details is disappointing imo.  Also keep in mind that windows at night that are part of a flat surface where the windows are not separate tend to have bleeding at the edges due to the pixel averaging the game does. Just giving you a heads up.

One more question... So far I think the car you have looks spot on shape wise but is a bit short compared to the references. How long did you make them?

I hope I'm not coming off critical. Just want to help a fellow train enthusiast.

No, not critical at all, I really, really appreciate your feedback.    Thanks much for the advice on the windows and doors.  Were you saying I should create separate boxes for the windows and doors and then inlay them into the side mesh somehow?  Or just work them into the side mesh and depress them a little into the side of the train.  Obviously, they would need to be set back a little, I was just wondering how you normally go about doing that.

Yeah, I understand what you mean about the "flatness" of some trains cars.  Skylines affords us a lot more room for detail with models, whereas you could get by in SC4 using boxy designs.  That's why I modeled in some of the details on the bottom - the level of detail required is really at another level for C:S, which is a good thing. The bleeding from the windows is another great reason to model them separately.  However, for the windows on the doors, would I need to depress those into the door to avoid bleeding on the door?  So the door would be set back and then the window of the door would be set back even further.  Thanks so much for passing your tips along, this will save me a lot of time down the road.

It's funny, because the train is actually 25 meters in length.  However, I think I made the front a little wider than proportion, so I might need to extend the model a little bit, anyway.  The Metro cars always look really elongated compared to other systems, in my opinion, anyway.

Again, thank you very much for the comment!!  I did not see it as criticism, but rather some friendly and much needed advice. 

P.S. and based on the beginning of your message, I am not sure if you meant to post it in the thread, but it may enlighten other people in their modding endeavors so I'll reply here. 

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

Wow...I guess it was meant for this to be in this thread. I was actually torn between PM and your thread but you're right. Maybe another modeler can lend more insight.

Personally I would push back the door areas a little but the windows on the doors don't have to be pushed back. You can always keep track of your tri count to make a judgement call. My trains have pushed back doors but the door windows are not. And the other windows are also pushed back but not individually. It's in sets of 2 and 3 windows on one face. So far the lighting is fine close up. But this is by no means a strict rule in my book. I'd just say get the best quality at the least tri count without sacrificing important details.

25 meters is 82 feet. I thought you car looked way shorter. I'm still getting used to using the metric system here and there. I think the sweet spot for metro is 40-60 feet (12-18 meters). If they are too long, the trains will be clipping into things on curves. 

[DCMetro34 576]

Well, it may help another modeler somewhere in the future, as well.  I will try out just pushing back the doors and not the door windows.  I was thinking that might be the best move.  I don't think tris will be too much of an issue, but I'll see.  Is there any reason why you'd push back sets of windows rather than each?  Wouldn't that look a little weird on the train?  And by the lighting comment, you mean illuminating the entire portion that is set back?  Sorry, I was a little confused there.

Shortening my train is probably a good idea for the tighter curves in the EL system.  The D.C. system can afford to have longer trains (75 feet) because there aren't any hairpin turns; it's all wide radius.  I originally made my train longer than 75 feet because my front was wider than the 10 feet, to keep it in proportion.  I think I need to scale it down all around.

I'll post some more pics tomorrow after I fiddle around with the windows and doors later.

[jmsepe 2,038]

Hi Nilo! It's great to see you work on CSL. I have used a few of your designs in SC4 and I'm really looking forward on what you are going to offer here.  

[Darf 1,439]

3 hours ago, Nilo7 said:

Well, it may help another modeler somewhere in the future, as well.  I will try out just pushing back the doors and not the door windows.  I was thinking that might be the best move.  I don't think tris will be too much of an issue, but I'll see.  Is there any reason why you'd push back sets of windows rather than each?  Wouldn't that look a little weird on the train?  And by the lighting comment, you mean illuminating the entire portion that is set back?  Sorry, I was a little confused there.

Shortening my train is probably a good idea for the tighter curves in the EL system.  The D.C. system can afford to have longer trains (75 feet) because there aren't any hairpin turns; it's all wide radius.  I originally made my train longer than 75 feet because my front was wider than the 10 feet, to keep it in proportion.  I think I need to scale it down all around.

I'll post some more pics tomorrow after I fiddle around with the windows and doors later.

If you push/extrude each individual window, that'd create a whole lot of geometry. You can make them seperate faces though and overlay them on the outerior a few (3-4) centimeters. This way you save texture space and it's easier to texture.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

6 hours ago, Darf said:

 You can make them seperate faces though and overlay them on the outerior a few (3-4) centimeters. This way you save texture space and it's easier to texture.

I really have to start using that technique.

@Nilo7 Sorry for causing confusion. I looked again and my train windows are pushed back individually.

 

[DCMetro34 576]

13 hours ago, Mr_Maison said:

I really have to start using that technique.

@Nilo7 Sorry for causing confusion. I looked again and my train windows are pushed back individually.

 

Sorry, @Darf and @Mr_Maison, but I honestly don't know what you referring to with the technique.  Would the separate faces method be done in the editable mesh rollout?  Or is there a name for this technique so I could look up a tutorial?  Sorry for the newbiness.. 

[Darf 1,439]

I'm not a blender user so I wouldnt have a clue. It means the windows are just an idividual mesh which you place infront of your other mesh.

[Mr_Maison 2,426]

If I understand it correctly, a window mesh is placed slightly in front of the main model (body) by a hair so that the illumination is separate avoiding any bleed. @Cool_Z made some good posts on this subject. Maybe he will peak in here. I haven't tried it yet so cannot give a really confident guide but I will try it very soon and report my results.

[DCMetro34 576]

15 hours ago, Darf said:

I'm not a blender user so I wouldnt have a clue. It means the windows are just an idividual mesh which you place infront of your other mesh.

Oh, okay, yeah, I was just going to create separate geometry and overlay above the train side if I did that method.  I'm using the 3DS Max student version, also.

15 hours ago, Mr_Maison said:

If I understand it correctly, a window mesh is placed slightly in front of the main model (body) by a hair so that the illumination is separate avoiding any bleed. @Cool_Z made some good posts on this subject. Maybe he will peak in here. I haven't tried it yet so cannot give a really confident guide but I will try it very soon and report my results.

This makes sense, to avoid the bleeding into the main texture, anyway.  But, that would sort of defeat the purpose of having them pushed back into the train wall.  I guess I could create the separate window geometry and union it with the train side.  Right now, the train side is pretty low poly, so if I was going to mesh edit and just negatively extrude certain parts of the side for the windows, I'd recreate the train side with more segments for the windows and then reduce the number of polys by combining them after the windows have been inlaid via mesh editing.  Or at least that's probably the easiest way I'd know how to do it.  The side does not have any vertical segments, so I can't edit the current mesh (see below).  Although, it is a mere 30 polys as of now!  

[donoteat 478]

@Nilo7 I think the slope on the front there is a little too aggressive. So far as I can tell the 7000-series has the same front slope as the previous cars, which is almost nothing.

As for details, well, since you've only used ~30 polys I think you can spare a few, I'd definitely follow the suggestions above and punch the windows in. It should have the same effect as pulling them out or overlaying another plane 1 millimeter in front or whatever, without clipping issues.

EDIT: since it's WMATA you should probably also figure out how to add particle effects for when it catches fire or fills a station with smoke from some third-rail connection issue or whatever.

[DCMetro34 576]

It's funny actually, I had never seen the train in person until recently and was going solely based off the schematic, but you bring up a good point, and I am going to remodel the front.  I am also going to punch in the windows, as was advised above. Thanks!

And, I'm currently crafting some nice smoke and fire animations for the occasional arcing incident.

As for me, I have been pretty busy moving and getting ready for the new school year, but I should have something to show you all soon that is not just text.

[Distanced 114]

I'm really excited about Metro Overhaul as well, and I'm glad that you're takin' it upon yourself to create a new vehicle! Keep up the good work! 

[dc'smycity 30]

As someone from DC, I am so glad to see someone taking this project up. I can't wait to see it finished!! Maybe you could add some flooding to the Greenbelt Station because WMATA. 

 

[DCMetro34 576]

*dusts off thread*

Well, it's certainly been a while.  I hope you all are doing well out in Skylines modder world.  It's funny because the last time I posted we were all excited for MOM and now it's Mass Transit that's taken Skylines by storm.  So, my mod is still timely, as it turns out.   School and work kept my busy since the last time I posted, but now that it's break I have some more time to continue.  I've done some UVW mapping and general texturing for my model and wanted to share my progress with you all.  I have not "pushed back" the windows or doors... perhaps it might be better to do this in normal mapping?

I also had a question regarding a little blip in my render.  If you see the image below, you'll notice that in the red circle I drew, it seems that some of the background of my bitmap is getting into my texture.  I can even see a little green from the outline of the UVW template.  However, my texture completely covers all the green outlines and black space that the model takes up, so I'm unsure where this is coming from.  Does anyone else have a similar experience?

(And yes, I have not textured the wheels yet  so the green outline of the bitmap can be seen there.

However, the other side of the train looks much nicer, go figure.    I'll keep playing around with the bitmap and see if anything changes.  

Also, what do you guys think about the flag stripe?  I may take it out because with the contour of the train, it is hard to get right (it's not right against the front of the train because of the curved front).  If you guys really like the stripe, I may just flatten the front so it looks better, otherwise, I'll just extend the gray side of the train.  The flag stripe was in the prototype for the new WMATA subway cars, but did not make it into the final design that is on the rails now.

As always, thanks a bunch for your feedback! 

[Lee Towers 179]

Looks like edge bleed to me. You should always extend the textures a few pixels beyond the UV borders to prevent this issue.

Also, welcome back! Though I hadn't seen this thread before 

[LeapingDolphin 2]

Are you still planning to make some DC styled metro stations by any chance?

[DCMetro34 576]

On 5/1/2018 at 6:11 PM, LeapingDolphin said:

Are you still planning to make some DC styled metro stations by any chance?

Metro stations? I'm definitely considering it.  I have more time in the summer now since there's no school.  Is there a particular station you were interested in?  I also need to read up on the recent happenings in C:S.  I've been away for over a year, so I'm sure a lot has progressed both in terms of mods and modding tools.

Thanks so much for the reply