Microsoft Stamps its Feet!

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Strange behaviour from a software company.

One wonders if this is the first symptom that the company is approaching an event horizon.

Go east young Skywalkers.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Hardly strange behavior. They want people to upgrade and this is a way to push people who haven't done that already to move on. 

[rsc204 21,806]

Honestly, it's not like they are even forcing an upgrade. Why should they support multiple legacy browsers? Why should Windows 8 receive support, when users should all have installed 8.1 (basically a service pack by another name)?

Ironically that means 7 will be supported longer than 8... hehe.

But seriously, that's got to be a serious case of Microsoft hating, to think this is news of any kind.

[philforhockey51 4,203]

So.. This means no support for Windows 95, until they get back up to 95, which will be in a few months at this rate.  

[Sabretooth78 808]

Meh.  If you're still using IE in the first place (especially outside of work) you have issues.

As for Windows, I did just acquire a Win7Pro product key for super cheap and finally ditched XP for my VM needs.  I'm quite impressed by the performance boost; XP must have really been holding things back.  It even destroys WINE somehow.  Anyhow, I have the option of upgrading to 10 for free but I'm probably just going to skip it.  I only use it for legacy gaming so why break what I just fixed.

Anything going forward I stick to multi-platform, and once this machine eventually dies I'll just look for a used one or "head east."

[Cyclone Boom 16,851]

It's no surprise really. There comes a point when older software reaches its scope of development, and is no longer productive to maintain. But one way or another, it'll remain to be seen how many will jump to take action.

On the lifecycle, they even class Windows 8.1 as a service pack. Providing support to only the current SP has also been a previous policy (usually 1-2 years).

For what it's worth, Windows 7 still remains a separate product, and will continue to receive extended support for another 4 years.

[hym 358]

3 hours ago, A Nonny Moose said:

Strange behaviour from a software company.

One wonders if this is the first symptom that the company is approaching an event horizon.

Go east young Skywalkers.

All Microsoft is doing is slowly adopting the Apple model, which roughly is "stay current or fend for yourself."

[Sabretooth78 808]

17 minutes ago, hym said:

All Microsoft is doing is slowly adopting the Apple model, which roughly is "stay current or fend for yourself."

As Apple adopts the old Microsoft model of pushing OS releases not ready for prime time (with inexplicable "your mileage may vary" results on what is supposedly a tightly-controlled ecosystem), inefficient bloated software, lock-ins (even moreso than before) and change for the sake of change instead of innovation.  I wonder when they'll implement a registry!    Also worth noting that they never use the slogan "it just works" anymore.  Now it's more like "just buy it because we know better what you want."

[rsc204 21,806]

1 hour ago, hym said:

All Microsoft is doing is slowly adopting the Apple model, which roughly is "stay current or fend for yourself."

Microsoft need you to buy into Windows 10 and the appstore. In fact, buy an Xbox One or a MS Phone/Tablet, they don't care. Since tablets and phones became the default content consumption devices, MS has a problem. Windows, Office and it's traditional licencing model is not brining home the bacon like it once did. Apple, Google and Amazon especially, are ahead of the game with AppStores and lock-in that ensures you'll loose out big time, if you switch ecosystems. Once a sufficient number buy into the cloud, the power a few mega-corporations will have is frankly scary. MS want in on this, because they are not so dumb as to fail to see the future. They just can't be cool like Apple or Open (I use that word with more than a tinge of irony) like Google or just plan as successful as Amazon. Everything will eventually be online, all paid for with subscriptions and extra fees wherever they feel they can get away with it. That or delving into every byte of data they can pry from your devices to monetise in new and exciting ways. What is an AppStore? It's the chance to take 30% of the cost of everything, for doing very little. Not to mention the fees/costs related to validation, because every non-certified application in existence is bad, right? In this new future, you won't be installing:

- iLives Reader
- SC4 Tools
- PIM-X
- DataNode

Well anything actually, unless the developer pays fees to the owner of the only place you can distribute your wares. This future is scary if you ask me, we're "protecting you", is what the scary monsters are yelling from inside the woods. Come in, we won't do anything bad they say... 

We could all install Linux, but that's just not a practical solution. Like it or not, Linux is very user unfriendly, why do you think it looks more and more like Windows all the time? I know first hand the kind of problems the masses have with computers, these people are going to find Linux a disaster the second something needs fixing. Not only are they incapable, but now they can't find anyone else to help them either.

Right now everyone is scrambling to get as much market share as possible. Microsoft have a problem here, they don't have a vibrant eco system. How to get as many potential customers as possible, give everyone a free copy of Windows 10 and don't be too picky about it. Windows 10 is the scary MS product, because once they have free reign to push updates that fit their needs and not yours, they most certainly will. One reporter even joked about MS charging you for an addon to get the next Direct X, because they could. If MS want my computer to pass everything I do to them to monetise, that's fine. Just tell me when you are giving the PC's away and I'll pass you my address. Until then, it's mine and I don't think what I do with it is any of your business.

[BlakeMW 84]

As someone who does some web development programming, all I can say "Hurray!".

Evergreen browsers all the way, if everyone was using an evergreen browser it would remove so many compatibility headaches.

The pace of technological development in the javascript world is skyrocketing, it is honestly phenomenal how much things have advanced in the last year or two. No company which is big in this field (including Microsoft, with TypeScript and such and the prevalence of javascript on their devices) can be interested in supporting ancient browsers. Although IE9 is "only" about 5 years old, it's javascript engine is only 1/10th as fast as IE10, and IE8 is down somewhere around 1/100th as fast.

Trying to force users to upgrade away from IE8 to IE9 (hell, even to competing browsers) is an intelligent move. It allows developers to focus on creating content for the current generation of applications. It should also be noted that one of the things which doubtlessly demolished IE's share of the browser usage, was that Google aggressively forced users to upgrade away from ancient browsers with the policy of only supporting the 2 most recent versions of each browser. So it's not like Microsoft is doing anything radical here with an "upgrade or get lost" policy.

[Skimbo 304]

I can understand that they quit the support for win 8.0 - the worst ever Os they made. I also can undrstand that they quit the support for the older Internet explorer things. What I don't understand is why they do not discontinue the actual internet explorer (or their crap browser edge which litterally just helped me downloading Firefox - wait no, that was internet explorer because edge hung itself up for multiple times.)

[TekindusT 3,809]

1 minute ago, Skimbo said:

What I don't understand is why they do not discontinue the actual internet explorer (or their crap browser edge which litterally just helped me downloading Firefox - wait no, that was internet explorer because edge hung itself up for multiple times.)

Are you meaning that... IE/Edge can be used for things other than downloading actual explorers???

[Skimbo 304]

29 minutes ago, TekindusT said:

Are you meaning that... IE/Edge can be used for things other than downloading actual explorers???

YES! The creation of crash-reports Which happened to me visiting mozillas HP

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

The bloom is clearly off the sage.  The days of the computer aficionado are now completely past.  We are becoming fewer and fewer as people who were in computers before 1980 simply die of old age.

Yes, Linux is a real female dog if anything goes wrong.  For example, I can't run the current version of Ubuntu (15.04) unless or until I purchase a new machine with a better graphics system, so I am running 14.04 LTS which will remain in support to 2017.  All things considered, I might not even live that long.  I'll be 80 in 2017.

I happen to be a pretty good programmer, so I could port my graphics driver onto 15.10, but it means about a six to eight month's learning curve and I've been retired for so long, I just can't be bothered.  The main problem is that AMD doesn't want anything further to do with the RS780 chip set that they have long since abandoned.  I'd have to probably take a white-box approach to building a new driver, but I could probably swipe a lot of the code from the one I am using now.  With Linux, products come and go between releases without any kind of notice.  It has been a long time since I wrote a device driver (1967 or there about).

Of course, Microsoft has done some rather foolish things by tossing in all that built-in malware that can monitor your system to a fare-thee-well.  Windows 10, IMHO, is just a huge virus. 

Probably the best holding position for any Windows user is Windows 7, but watch out what updates come in.  Among other things, I suggest that all possible MS products be replaced during this phase-out period.  Get rid of IE (switch to Firefox or Chrome), MS-Office can easily be replaced by Libre Office and your e-mail can be handled nicely by Thunderbird.  If you need a calendaring system, the Lightening add-on to Thunderbird is pretty good.  AFAIK all of these products are available multi-platform.  Photoshop users can switch to the GIMP.  All of the third-party products I've mentioned are free as is the entire GNU development suite for people interested (how few there are!) in actually producing new multi-platform applications.  Many of the GUI products are based on GTK (GIMP Tool Kit) and do, in fact, provide a replacement for Visual Studio.  There is no rush, Windows 7 remains in support for a few more years.

[rsc204 21,806]

23 minutes ago, A Nonny Moose said:

Probably the best holding position for any Windows user is Windows 7, but watch out what updates come in.  Among other things, I suggest that all possible MS products be replaced during this phase-out period.

I'm quite happy with Office 2003, the ribbon never touched any machine I owned. Outlook I've been using since it was called Schedule +. To this day nothing allows such easy contact synchronisation, without uploading my private contact data first. Add to that about 12-13 years of archived e-mails I've no intention of loosing.

You may prefer gimp, but like a lot of open source software, I just can get along with it. Why doesn't it just put everything in one window, it's my number one complaint with it. Everything just floating all over the place like a desk covered in papers. Not to mention the automation systems I'm taking advantage of in PS are a boon to my productivity. I'm guessing also possible in GIMP, but I learnt another system that works for me. GIMPs installed, but I don't see me ever using it, except to convert xcf to psd. In a similar vein, I could switch to bender, and dump 6-8 months of Gmax/3DS max learning curve in the process.

That's the thing, I'm not against learning new things or installing new programs. But, there needs to be some tangible need or worthwhile major update to justify it.

I looked into switching from Windows a few years back. After toying with the available options, Mac's were not viable from a cost perspective and Linux, despite my best efforts I just could not get on with. Sure, a large part of this is a lifetime (since Win 3.11/DOS 6) of using WinTel systems. But if it ain't broke...

So to your offer of upturning my whole computer-based activities, no thanks. I'll firewall off Windows 7 into a VM as a last resort, sticking it out with Windows 7 as long as I can.

[Sabretooth78 808]

4 hours ago, rsc204 said:

I'm quite happy with Office 2003, the ribbon...

UGH.

Yes, death to the ribbon.  Another wonder foisted upon us.  I've always been somewhat of an Excel power-user at work (don't like to say advanced but that's probably what I am) and I used to like setting up my own toolbars for all those handy little commands buried deep in the program.  Now the only option to avoid an extra 5 mouse clicks (when you're not pushing your way past wads of formatting styles I've never seen anybody use) is to have an unkempt at best "quick access toolbar."  It's a disgrace.  Have you seen the new file open "backstage" windows in Office 2013?  Now you have to click several times just to open a "file open" browser dialog.  (I did just find the other day that it can easily be disabled, however.)

The "War on Power Users" (to use officially sanctioned US government parlance for identifying problems) extends far beyond just MS, though.  As an example, I've used Bentley software on the job pretty much since the beginning and it's the same thing.  Now there, you do at least get innovation as such a market is nearly if not entirely professional and power users, but you can still see the attitude.  For instance, IMHO the MicroStation CAD software package has been in decline since the v8 2004 version.  That was as fresh and tight a piece of software as I think I've ever used for anything beyond text editors.  It just keeps getting more bloated and unstable with every release not to mention needless changes in workflows.  And nothing tees off a power user drafter more.

GIMP can be run in a single-window mode, BTW.  It's under one of the right-most menus.  Don't have it right in front of me so I can't recall exactly what and where, but it is there (at least on Mac OS).  To be honest, it's handy in some situations but I've personally grown to prefer the window/palette layout or whatever you want to call it.

Macs are more expensive at the outset but I'm convinced they do no worse than break even on lifecycle cost.  Of course, it depends on what you use it for.  I've always been something of a power user and not afraid to upgrade, replace and/or add components.  I can agree that if you're only using it for email and browsing (consumption, basically) then yeah, it's just an overpriced shiny toy.  I've always liked them since the early 90s, so when they finally started getting decent software support and VM abilities (and I could actually afford to splurge on one) in the late 2000s I finally jumped ship back to them.  Given their own road Apple is taking in their front in the War on Power Users, however (historically always a small group but one recognized, enabled and supported by the company at least its soul and rudder died in 2011), I do see Linux as an eventuality.

To round it out, yeah I'm pretty happy with Windows 7 in a VM configuration.  Windows Update is slower than frozen molasses, so it's taking me longer to settle the dust than it did installing XP, what with its decade of catch-up updates on a clean install (the updates are what takes all the time!) but I've been using it at work for the last few years now and it seems to satisfy my need for things unbloated.  At least as good as I can expect from Microsoft now and into the foreseeable future.

[rsc204 21,806]

1 hour ago, Sabretooth78 said:

UGH.

Yes, death to the ribbon.

Well it's not the ribbon's fault, we really need to teach devs a lesson that if they go too far there are consequences ;).

As much as I hate it, the reasoning for it's existence makes sense. The most used features are all one click away, based on analytics of users. Of course this provides no defence for not allowing users the freedom to choose. After all each button just makes a call, why can't we be allowed to use the old way if we prefer? I've been stuck in a work environment with it, it's hateful trying to get anything done efficiently that's as you say "advanced". They did the same with Windows, almost everything requires more clicks, not less. One day they'll no doubt remove CTRL + X/C/V and other useful shortcuts too.

Quote

GIMP can be run in a single-window mode, BTW.  It's under one of the right-most menus.  Don't have it right in front of me so I can't recall exactly what and where, but it is there (at least on Mac OS).  To be honest, it's handy in some situations but I've personally grown to prefer the window/palette layout or whatever you want to call it.

That's handy to know. But even so, once you've gained familiarity with a product that does something well, there is always a reluctance for change.

Quote

Macs are more expensive at the outset but I'm convinced they do no worse than break even on lifecycle cost.  Of course, it depends on what you use it for.

You know, if you'd have said to me Mac's are worth the money, for the most part until the last few years, I'd have to agree. The resale value of a PC is nothing within 24months (near enough anyhow), Mac's always faired better. Not to mention what you used to pay for was quality. This simply can not be said for todays Macs, over-priced un-upgradable rubbish is how I'd describe them. I've never had a problem with Macs, I've always known a few people, usually graphics/music people who swore by them. Oddly, all of them have switched from Apple, precisely because the quality/cost issues forced their hand. Want to upgrade your Apple laptop from 120GB to 500GB HDD, that'll be 650€!!! This when the 500€ laptops for sale, when you paid 2,000€ for your mac, all came with the larger 500GB drives as standard.

It's worth pointing out that Apple are not alone, HP/Compaq make mostly junk, even the expensive stuff. And Sony literally take the biscuit by using the cheapest possible everything whilst charging a hefty premium. Sony were one of the few vendors who used SIS chipsets on top end laptops :0. People have always asked me what computer to buy, for years there was one answer, an IBM ThinkPad. They just go on and on, one even survived a trip down the stairs once. Of course, you'll be looking at Apple prices for one as a result. Lenovo have from what I know, kept up with the Thinkpad status quo, but they do seem to be slipping on some entry-level models recently. The IdeaPad and other Lenovo lines are also junk. That's the problem, everything is junk now, but you can't buy the 300 $/£/€ machines, they will break the moment the warranty is up, If you get lucky, just before.

Thankfully a cheap netbook-style laptop is sufficient for my mobile computing needs. But I keep a decent tower PC. The last one was upgraded over 10 years before it's retirement 2 years ago. I built a top-end i7 machine, got some new displays and everything to keep this one going for a long time to come.

Windows 7 was a compromise, but in the end the balance was in favour of the benefits over the negatives. 8/10 do not seem to have any I can ascertain. Well, maybe my computer would start faster? A moot point with an under 30 seconds boot time, on a PC that's the fastest I've ever owned and totally whisper quiet with day to day tasks.

[Sabretooth78 808]

1 hour ago, rsc204 said:

You know, if you'd have said to me Mac's are worth the money, for the most part until the last few years, I'd have to agree. The resale value of a PC is nothing within 24months (near enough anyhow), Mac's always faired better.

Yeah I should disclaim my statement - I own a 2012 non-Retina MacBook Pro with the expanded display (my primary) and a 2011 MacMini (basically headless HTPC/crude server).  Retina notwithstanding (I won't begrudge those who stand by it) I believe I own the pinnacles of their respective lines.  Well, the 2012 Mini is probably slightly better than mine but close enough - the most recent refresh was basically lobotomized.  (I don't know why you would do that from the line that was all but designed to lure people from Windows.)  Anyhow, they're both as upgradeable as you would expect from a laptop and a tiny PC.  I've replaced the RAM in both, added a second drive to the Mini, replaced the MBP's optical drive with an SSD, etc.  I don't know about the new Mini but all subsequent refreshes of the MBP have been completely locked down.  When this one dies, I intend to either look for another on eBay or somewhere - or failing that buy a decent spec'd laptop for Linux.

My wife actually recently fried a 2014 MacBook Air by spilling wine on it.  You'd be amazed how far into the machine it got - it was everywhere.  I took it completely apart and cleaned it, after which it all came back except the battery.  Ordered some replacement parts (what I could) but I've pretty much isolated it to a blown battery chip on the logic board.  I bought a 2008 MacBook on eBay to "replace" it, replaced the optical drive with an SSD and had to take the monitor apart to replace a dying wi-fi cable (thank you, ifixit; you want to talk about nervous fun - the hardest part was putting it back together without dust under the glass) but other than that it's been great and actually outperforms the Air.  I went for that particular model because I had one prior to my current MacBook Pro and it was a rock.  I wanted something a little better (in hindsight, I couldn't have timed it better), so I sold it (along with a 2009 Mini) to a friend and they're still kicking butt.

So yeah, if you get the right models, which I would basically say are any of the unibodies between 2008-2012, you're really no worse off for tinkering than any other Windows PC.  And I agree with the cost on upgrades - only once did I have an upgrade at purchase, in that particular instance the RAM was cost-neutral with 3rd party.  As a rule you're almost far better off going 3rd party - for instance OWC is great - when Apple allows you to, that is.

My work laptop is a Lenovo ThinkPad W540 running Windows 7.  It's mostly locked down by IT obviously, but it seems pretty capable and no-nonsense.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

About GIMP.  It does have a single window mode, and some prefer it.  I am indifferent because I am used to things operating in varying ways, I suppose.  I've been exposed to various software decors and layouts since most of it first came out, and I happily switch to what is most comfortable for me, if possible.  Otherwise, I use programs as they come.

The other thing to note here, is if it works and you didn't pay anything for it, use it anyway.  Photoshop is just a little rich for the amount of use I would get from it.  I've never had a free copy (student?) of any software, and software fees give me an acute pain.

[rsc204 21,806]

Actually I've a 2009 Mac Mini sitting on my desk. A friend bought it and then promptly stored it away and never used it. I offered him 300€ for it about 2 years ago, it's a nice little thing that is useful occasionally as a test PC without ever cluttering up my desk being there in the meantime.

As for working with Macs (or laptops in general) I avoid doing it unless something is so broken, I can't possibly make it worse. I did fit a badly needed new HDD to a Sony Viao P series I own. It's so small (think tablet with keyboard) the HDD wasn't even secured into place, just wedged in with some rubber bungs. I went the expensive route and paid 150€ for a 60GB SSD with the same interface the iPod classic HDD's use. But it's worth it, since no amount of moving it will kill this drive. Thankfully though, I got hold of the official in-house repair manual, despite it's diminutive size, they still made everything with screws back then too. Opening a device without screws, that's not something I'm often brave enough to contemplate. For the same reason my beloved Blackberry Playbook remains dead, I'm convinced the battery just needs a "jump start". Not kidding, just like a car with a dead battery. Whatever moron designed a charging circuit that requires at least 3v + remaining to actually begin charging the device needs firing. Or hiring, these days I think such things are considered beneficial, how else will they force you to buy another?

As for GIMP/PS, I agree, if I had to pay full retail, I would not be using Photoshop. One of the advantages of being "that guy" when everyone has computer problems, is that instead of billing by the hour, I get lots of free stuff. Especially when friends who need the latest everything want the old junk removed and see no value in it. For a couple years, I had a 6 monthly refresh of free components from various sources in return for fitting the new parts.

[Sabretooth78 808]

On the same topic, here's a nice little thing I just discovered...

What is the “Get Windows 10” Tray Item and How Do You Remove It?

This little nag thing gets installed under the following guise:

[rsc204 21,806]

A nasty little piece of work, almost akin to spyware. It's an update of the Windows 10 upgrade NAG from last year.

Now it seems it will correct your insolent assumption that you don't, in fact, want Windows 10. All under the guise of a security update. That's pretty dodgy and untrustworthy behaviour if you ask me. And a pretty good statement of intent about how Microsoft will abuse it's new found ability to patch your computer, to do whatever suits them.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Yet another reason to bid Microsoft farewell.

[rsc204 21,806]

Perhaps... or simply don't allow them to install this crap on your computer. As opposed to upending my world and spending months starting over with a completely different way of doing everything for no tangible benefit?

[Sabretooth78 808]

I'm in a position where I could abandon them completely in a heartbeat if need be (and Apple within 2 heartbeats for that matter) but at this point sticking to 7 or even XP is like driving a used car - it's broken in, somebody else got hit with the depreciation and all these stupid little quirks are more easily avoided.

[rsc204 21,806]

I could too if I had to or wanted, but neither of those things is currently true. I just don't want Windows 8 or 10, otherwise I'm happy with my computer, Windows 7 and my application choices. Most of which are quite old versions I made a conscious decision never to upgrade.

I'm the sort of guy that buys an identical second camera, because I like the model I have so much. A Casio QVR-4 in case you are interested. If it ever breaks, an identical one is in storage ready to go. Although so far it's given me no reason to question it's reliability. A new battery aside, 13 years of service from a £200 camera is pretty good I feel.

My computer is my world in a sense, not that I want to sit at it all day long, but in the sense of it's an integral part of my life. It's where I pay bills, can shop, manage a calendar/contacts. It stores all my photos, videos, music and so much more besides. It's used as a workstation, for my hobbies and for my life in general.

Something so important to me can not simply be changed entirely without making my life way harder than I can bear. If it had to happen, I suppose I'd get over it. But I'm not willingly going to do this without some tangible reason for it. If this PC totally died, I wouldn't move on, I'd rebuild it again.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Well, the consensus here seems to be if it's not broken, don't fix it.  So at this point one must stop Microsoft from fixing it by slipping an update past you.

@rsc204

If it would take you months to convert to a different operating system, I guess you must be current on the internals of the one you are using.

[Windfarmer 18]

If you use IE anyway, you need to switch to Chrome.

[rsc204 21,806]

Why? IE is fine, despite all the hate. Actually I prefer Opera, but the last good version doesn't play nice with ST, so I stick it out with IE. I don't want my browser uploading every little detail on what I do with it. Google is far scarier than MS, even if MS are trying to follow their business model.

[A Nonny Moose 8,261]

Browsers, like religious beliefs, are intensely personal.  I've been using Firefox for years, even before I switched to Linux.  I found IE not to my taste and Chrome to be nothing to write home about.