Green Propaganda

[BlakeMW 84]

Am I the only one bothered by the clear green bias the game shows? Particularly that windmills practically fart flowers and sunshine. The windmills, if you place them in high wind zones (and on most the stock maps, there are plenty of high wind zones) are the most efficient power source you can build, until Solar(!!!). Windmills don't require water, they don't require deliveries of fuel nor generate garbage meaning they don't contribute to congestion and they also require no roads. Now I am aware that the green energy sources have a somewhat higher upfront cost. The problem is, this doesn't go anyway at all to making them more balanced - if you're going to have the thing forever, the lower costs will pay off through a healthier operating surplus. The advanced wind turbine is an even more grievous offender, eliminating the main cost of windmills - the noise pollution and limited high wind zones. Out on the water, the noise pollution doesn't matter and there is usually plenty of high wind.

 

Yeah, I know, a coal power plant is a lot cheaper in terms of upfront costs, but even then, because you can't economically scale down power production, the ability to incrementally add to your power production again works in the favor of windmills. The upfront cost of a coal power plant, is higher than the upfront cost of a single windmill- a windmill is the cheapest way to start. And then, a second windmill is the cheapest way to double your power production. And kind of so on. It's not really that clear when it would be a better time to build a coal plant.

 

Solar also poops daffodils and makes puppies and kittens happy. Again you have a high upfront cost, but the operating costs are waaaay lower than oil and the fuel is free as sunshine. And as if in a nod to the fact that Hydro dams aren't all beer and pretzels, they suck, being a great way to flood your city, sink your budget, or my personal favorite - cause the sewage to back up to the water pumps causing mass death. I've also yet to have a hydro dam - you know - generate power.

 

But the real problem is that the wind always blows and the sun always shines. IRL my understanding is that wind is pretty cheap both in terms of construction and operating costs, but it suffers the serious limitation that the wind doesn't always blow. This means that baseline and fallback power stations are required, baseline such as coal, nuclear and hydro, and fallback such as gas and hydro. Maybe even worse, cheap wind power wrecks havoc on the electricity market, making life difficult for baseline power stations.

 

I guess we can hope and maybe even expect that an expansion pack will flesh out the power system, as the game mechanics could certainly support a more advanced power system. Wind turbines would let you save up fuel when the wind blows. So wind turbines would act to reduce fuel usage, rather than replace fossil fuel plants. Since fuel usage and delivery is actually tracked in this game, this would be meaningful. It would obviously require the addition of a gas turbine, with very low construction costs and high operating costs. You would have to decide whether you want a strong baseline from fossil fuels/nuclear, or go with lots of renewables, with big spikes in operating costs when the gas needs to kick in.

 

But anyway, solutions aside, I get the ever so slightly queasy sensation that there is a strong green propaganda bent to the whole power plants and industries things, windmills and solar is wonderful and we should built lots of it. Oil and ore runs out nearly instantly so don't even bother. Forests are wonderful (IRL: They're okay, but the favored trees, often pines, usually require extensive chemical treatment to preserve the timber so it doesn't just rot immediately).

 

Please, don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with green propaganda, I usually vote green. My problem is that in this game the green propaganda is not done well, it feels a bit hamfisted. Also, to be fair, I've done game development myself. There simply isn't time to implement everything you'd like to as you'd like to. It's not a complaint about the job the devs have done, it's a complaint about the game, if that makes sense .

[TekindusT 3,809]

Windmills don't require water, they don't require deliveries of fuel nor generate garbage meaning they don't contribute to congestion and they also require no roads.

Well, this is actually true in real life.

 

Yeah, I know, a coal power plant is a lot cheaper in terms of upfront costs, but even then, because you can't economically scale down power production, the ability to incrementally add to your power production again works in the favor of windmills. The upfront cost of a coal power plant, is higher than the upfront cost of a single windmill- a windmill is the cheapest way to start. And then, a second windmill is the cheapest way to double your power production. And kind of so on. It's not really that clear when it would be a better time to build a coal plant.

I personally build the coal power plant almost when I'm granted the access to it. The plots of land you have access to are limited as well, and at some point, your wind turbine farm will grow at the risk of taking your city over; or your city will grow at the point of taking your wind turbine over. For the sake of realism and noise pollution at your cims' place; moving on to coal seems the most sensitive and realistic idea.

It all seems that the idea of wind turbines in C:S is purely to power small villages or isolated places, to give you that boost when you're starting off. The whole game is designed so you move on to other kinds of power if you want to juice a big city up.

 

But anyway, solutions aside, I get the ever so slightly queasy sensation that there is a strong green propaganda bent to the whole power plants and industries things, windmills and solar is wonderful and we should built lots of it. Oil and ore runs out nearly instantly so don't even bother. Forests are wonderful (IRL: They're okay, but the favored trees, often pines, usually require extensive chemical treatment to preserve the timber so it doesn't just rot immediately).

I have heard this in several other aspects of the game.

- Mass transit: no trams, el-rail, ferries, more kinds of stations, etc.

- Micromanagement: can't tweak the fundings of this or that school or clinic.

- Parks and recreation: Limited number of in-game parks...

Each of us thinks the game falls a bit too short in certain aspects. But I'm quite sure that modding and time and expansions will fix that. Remember that this game was developed by 30 people only at Colossal Order.

[BlitzPackage 19]

There is probably green propaganda in the game.  Maybe that's the point.

[EyeofMobius 27]

You should check out the Real Power Mod that is being worked on in the Steam Workshop. The designer is coming up with a config option so you can set the plants to the values you see as correct. I have submitted some suggestions about costs that would work for his realistic power outputs with game play balance in mind and I hope they use them

 

Oil and Ore currently seem to fill a realistic boom/bust mechanic. Try setting up a specialized processing area that feeds to your general industry before you go out and harvest. This area should be able to fill its supply demand through import when the resources are not being harvested. Then at the appropriate time build a temporary harvest district and watch your profits get a huge boost for a short period of time and your city will now have the economy to support rapid growth and get in the end an even stronger base economy.

 

As far as the game being green propaganda this is entirely possible on the basis that the environment is currently trendy and many people at the citizen level are becoming more concerned with it to put pressure on governments to make policy changes; these attitudes are reflected in the popular culture we create which brings the idea to more people creating a cycle. Until we are bored to tears about something its influence will effect our mainstream consumption. Personally I hope the environment stays popular for a long time because it is my number one favourite play space.

[aable 63]

There are several awesome coal plants on the workshop that are more powerful than the default, along with larger and more realistic solar farms, which I use for a more balanced and realistic set up.I also use a mod that makes ore and oil infinite, just because I play at a slow pace and don't want to have to move my industrial areas around constantly. I would hope that they change this in a patch, it seems obvious that an oil field should last at least 10 years, not 6 months. 

 

I wouldn't go so far as saying that green propaganda in the game is a bad thing, but just that it's a bit silly to have to plop a million windmills at at the beginning of the game as the most cost effective source of power. Coal should be cheap and dirty, just like in real life and in Sim City.

 

 It's worth noting that the theme of the game is somewhat futuristic, with the late game buildings generally becoming available in game year 2030 at the earliest and having things like the space elevator and what not. So I'm sure that's why they decided to make green energy such a focus.

[Mystrelia 57]

Here are my thoughts on it. If it was a possibility my house would be powered by a wind turbine because I live in a really windy area. Shoot, hubby even built and erected a wind turbine that's stood in our yard for years. The only problem is, when the wind does blow it's either too strong for the turbine or blowing at the wrong height to make the turbine an effective source of power. Oh, and lest I forget to mention, there are several months in the winter where we may have nothing but an inversion with no wind at all. The vast majority of our real life electricity comes from hydro-electric plants that're supplemented with natural gas and wind. That's the reality. However, I play video games to escape from reality so it doesn't bother me that not everything is 100% realistic. Here's a modern city building game with affordable green energy sources? Oh yeah, I'm all over that! I don't really care how impractical or unrealistic it may be because I don't actually have to use it if I don't want. I do want to use it, though, because I hate real life pollution. I hate the fact that fifteen years ago I could drive out of the small city toward where I live and (storms aside) the sky was beautiful and now as I make that drive the sky is constantly hazy because of the pollution that drifts from the small cities twenty-five miles and farther to the east of where I live.

 

One thing I would like to see have a more realistic impact on my Skylines town is garbage recycling. Living out in the country we don't have curbside trash pick-up so it's up to us to haul it. I make at least two trips a month to the recycling center. We have four receptacles in our kitchen: paper, plastic, metal and actual trash. On any given trip sixty to seventy percent of our refuse goes to the recycler. I'm at a loss as to why a recycling center wasn't included in this game.

[aable 63]

Here are my thoughts on it. If it was a possibility my house would be powered by a wind turbine because I live in a really windy area. Shoot, hubby even built and erected a wind turbine that's stood in our yard for years. The only problem is, when the wind does blow it's either too strong for the turbine or blowing at the wrong height to make the turbine an effective source of power. Oh, and lest I forget to mention, there are several months in the winter where we may have nothing but an inversion with no wind at all. The vast majority of our real life electricity comes from hydro-electric plants that're supplemented with natural gas and wind. That's the reality. However, I play video games to escape from reality so it doesn't bother me that not everything is 100% realistic. Here's a modern city building game with affordable green energy sources? Oh yeah, I'm all over that! I don't really care how impractical or unrealistic it may be because I don't actually have to use it if I don't want. I do want to use it, though, because I hate real life pollution. I hate the fact that fifteen years ago I could drive out of the small city toward where I live and (storms aside) the sky was beautiful and now as I make that drive the sky is constantly hazy because of the pollution that drifts from the small cities twenty-five miles and farther to the east of where I live.

 

One thing I would like to see have a more realistic impact on my Skylines town is garbage recycling. Living out in the country we don't have curbside trash pick-up so it's up to us to haul it. I make at least two trips a month to the recycling center. We have four receptacles in our kitchen: paper, plastic, metal and actual trash. On any given trip sixty to seventy percent of our refuse goes to the recycler. I'm at a loss as to why a recycling center wasn't included in this game.

There are at least two really great recycling center mods on the workshop as well! 

[reReticulated Spline 69]

Well, renewables SHOULD be cheap to maintain as you said yourself. I think the regular wind mill is well balanced. Offshore wind mills should be much more expensive to maintain though requiring ships etc. to maintain and being placed in more harsh conditions (i seem to remember it being the most expensive power source). Solar power should require a much larger size for the relative power it provides.

 

So yeah, consider these two as 'futuristic' versions of themselves (together with the fusion plant).

 

Coal, Oil and nuclear by contrast should have a much larger output per plant. They should take up MUCH less space compared to wind and solar. There also should be some way for a city that has access to coal/oil to use coal/oil really cheap. But if you don't have those as natural resources, wind should be the cheapest (provided you DO have high wind). Turns out reality is actually pretty well balanced if translated to a city builder.

 

As for fallback of wind/solar: in Europe everyone is connected to the same grid. Excess power is sold to neighbours during peak and bought back when power output is low. Fuel based power plants respond by selling only when demand is up. But because there is no region/country in the game, we can forgive that simplification right?

 

Is green power too powerful in this game? YES. (Advanced wind and solar at least). Calling it 'propaganda' is a bit silly though. Because that word implies some sort of pro-green-power-conspiracy of which the developers are a part. The whole idea that there IS such a thing as green propaganda is actually part of the information war against green energy.

[Mystrelia 57]

 

Here are my thoughts on it. If it was a possibility my house would be powered by a wind turbine because I live in a really windy area. Shoot, hubby even built and erected a wind turbine that's stood in our yard for years. The only problem is, when the wind does blow it's either too strong for the turbine or blowing at the wrong height to make the turbine an effective source of power. Oh, and lest I forget to mention, there are several months in the winter where we may have nothing but an inversion with no wind at all. The vast majority of our real life electricity comes from hydro-electric plants that're supplemented with natural gas and wind. That's the reality. However, I play video games to escape from reality so it doesn't bother me that not everything is 100% realistic. Here's a modern city building game with affordable green energy sources? Oh yeah, I'm all over that! I don't really care how impractical or unrealistic it may be because I don't actually have to use it if I don't want. I do want to use it, though, because I hate real life pollution. I hate the fact that fifteen years ago I could drive out of the small city toward where I live and (storms aside) the sky was beautiful and now as I make that drive the sky is constantly hazy because of the pollution that drifts from the small cities twenty-five miles and farther to the east of where I live.

 

One thing I would like to see have a more realistic impact on my Skylines town is garbage recycling. Living out in the country we don't have curbside trash pick-up so it's up to us to haul it. I make at least two trips a month to the recycling center. We have four receptacles in our kitchen: paper, plastic, metal and actual trash. On any given trip sixty to seventy percent of our refuse goes to the recycler. I'm at a loss as to why a recycling center wasn't included in this game.

There are at least two really great recycling center mods on the workshop as well! 

 

I've tried a couple and every time I use them I get a null error message and eventually my save gets corrupted. I don't have a lot of custom stuff in my game, mostly parks and a set of growable buildings plus a handful of mods.

 

Oh, one thing I forgot to say when it comes to wind and solar power is that granted, it's always windy and sunny in the game but when these types of power sources are used in the real world there's generally extra power stored in capacitor banks that gets used when it's not windy or sunny so if you add that to the thinking process on how the in-game turbines and solar plant works it does make the system a bit more plausible. We also have a few small solar panels on our little greenhouse and DH uses them to power some of the equipment in there like the seed incubator and light box. Of course we're not relying on that source of power year-round, just in the late winter and spring when we do have mostly sunny days.

[aable 63]

I've tried a couple and every time I use them I get a null error message and eventually my save gets corrupted. I don't have a lot of custom stuff in my game, mostly parks and a set of growable buildings plus a handful of mods.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm... sorry that stuff's not working for you. Are you on mac or PC?

[Mystrelia 57]

I use a Windows 7 desktop. The first time this happened was within the first week of release and I don't remember which recycling plant it was, then I tried another, one that's green and white. On the upside, a cheaty incinerator I downloaded works. I use it when I want to empty out landfills in a real hurry.

[meowza 230]

Game's green propaganda doesn't bother me. It's the pot propaganda that does.

[mutton noir 170]

Any art work/design/product is going to be influenced to some degree by the creators ethics/political views- whether intentional or subconsciously .

Your post suggests some dangerous mind altering conspiracy. What a load of bunkum. So it doesn't match your politics, so what? I'm assuming that you are North American. The good ole US of A. Big business, Big oil, Military Industrial Complex, Intrusive paranoid surveillance, institutionalised racism, cultural vacuum, detention without charge, election by lethal injection- firing squad and electric chair. Insist on calling football soccer. And you're all het up about a game that promotes a few windmills! Get some perspective on life. Get out more. Travel some.

[EyeofMobius 27]

Any art work/design/product is going to be influenced to some degree by the creators ethics/political views- whether intentional or subconsciously .

Your post suggests some dangerous mind altering conspiracy. What a load of bunkum. So it doesn't match your politics, so what? I'm assuming that you are North American. The good ole US of A. Big business, Big oil, Military Industrial Complex, Intrusive paranoid surveillance, institutionalised racism, cultural vacuum, detention without charge, election by lethal injection- firing squad and electric chair. Insist on calling football soccer. And you're all het up about a game that promotes a few windmills! Get some perspective on life. Get out more. Travel some.

 I think your point was fine with your first sentence. Your broad sweeping assumption that followed is in the wrong.

 

While not everyone on an internet forum can express their thoughts and topics for discussion in a manner that every-single-person-who-happens-along can grasp and comprehend in a simple and straightforward manner, the OP has stated in the final bit of their post that they are more dissatisfied with the mechanical implementation of green mechanics into the game.

My problem is that in this game the green propaganda is not done well, it feels a bit hamfisted. Also, to be fair, I've done game development myself. There simply isn't time to implement everything you'd like to as you'd like to. It's not a complaint about the job the devs have done, it's a complaint about the game, if that makes sense  .  (Grater)

[ibegurpard 3]

I wish.  I can't seem to keep my industrial areas from being polluted cesspools.

[Mystrelia 57]

I wish.  I can't seem to keep my industrial areas from being polluted cesspools.

Have you got them to start leveling up yet? It doesn't get rid of it but it does seriously reduce the pollution--and of course there's no pollution from the specialized industry. I know a lot of us like to think high-tech industries don't make pollution but they do; just ask China.