Should capital punishment be humane?

[LexusInfernus 908]

I find it too easy to just bring in the Hannibals of the world... But since slavery, prostitution, war-crimes and such were brought in - how about the countless assholes who speculate e.g. on food-prices, causing literally millions to hunger or die (LnX expanded a bit on that earlier)? Their crimes are no less mind-boggling and evil... We gonna kill them all, too?

No. First, because speculating on food prices is not illegal at all. No punishment for people who didn't break laws, no matter how unethical their behavior might be. Second, in the case of food speculation, their speculation is far from the only factor that causes food prices to go up. For example, the US sells 60% of its corn to companies to be turned into biofuels, and the fact that food prices are also strongly affected by the price of oil are two other very important reasons food prices are skyrocketing. Then there have been a number of harvest failures in a number of countries, of which we still feel some effects and finally, the agricultural sector in Africa has been neglected for decades and is in dire need of investment in order to increase efficiency and food production. 

 

On top of that, food speculators have no motive, they are not trying to kill people on purpose, they are not even trying to create hunger on purpose, that is just a side effect. So even then, the worst you could convict them off is perhaps manslaughter or something. 

[astronelson 339]

 

I am very much against capital punishment, but if it must be done may I suggest inert gas asphyxiation? Nitrogen is very easy to come by.

 

I think something about killing people with gas, even if it isn't the same process as people think of when they hear that, touches a few nerves given a certain item from history.

 

Lethal injection was also used during that sad period for Action T4. The change from injection to gassing was in part due to the increasing expense and decreasing supply of the drugs used, and the fact that it was less difficult to administer. Regardless, lethal injection remains the most popular method of execution, at least in the US.

[paeng 2,525]

food speculators have no motive, they are not trying to kill people on purpose

 

Yeah, they just try to make a honest living...

Well, you are right - there may be no "law" against this kind of crime yet... high time that changes.

 

 

that is just a side effect

 

Oh, I see...

[timmie 988]

Luckily the European Union is going to adopt measures limiting food speculation (and flash trading in the banking world). Food speculators will however not be sentenced to death, since the death penalty is not allowed according to the Treaty of Lisbon. The Council of Europe doesn't allow it either.

[AkemiAzula 280]

The deaht penalty shouldn't be a punishment but a method of removing problem elements. When you start crossing morals and the law you enter the state run church vicinity, which i think we all agreed several centuries ago is a bad idea

[timmie 988]

You are not removing problem elements. You are removing people. And frankly, there is no difference between murder and the death penalty. The latter is murder by the state, so using it is morally inconsistent.

 

Also, who will decide what 'problem elements' are? Are unemployed people 'problem elements'? Are gay people 'problem elements'? Are socialists 'problem elements'? Are people with a low IQ 'problem elements'? Are Muslims 'problem elements'? How will you be able to recognize 'problem elements'? Genetic research? And do you think if we eliminate X people with gene Y that there will be no more murders? Do you think no husband will ever again murder his wife when he discovers she cheats on him? Frankly, there is a name for what you want: mass murder. It is very illegal.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

Murder and manslaughter are very different. I hear people calling a lot of things murder (even meat-eating) and I think that is absurd.

--Ocram

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

I find it too easy to just bring in the Hannibals of the world... But since slavery, prostitution, war-crimes and such were brought in - how about the countless assholes who speculate e.g. on food-prices, causing literally millions to hunger or die (LnX expanded a bit on that earlier)? Their crimes are no less mind-boggling and evil... We gonna kill them all, too?

No, I think the punishment should fit the crime.  Toss 'em in an oubliette and let them live on basic "bread and water" rations for a few years, preferably surrounded by inedible images of the food their foolishness has denied others.

 

I disagree with commodity speculation.  The whole business has elements of avarice about it.

[astronelson 339]

The European Union went to the extent of forbidding the export of drugs that would be used for lethal injections in 2011 under the EU Torture Regulation, which I suppose goes to show their position on whether it is a humane method. Execution via lethal injection requires that the victim be strapped down to stop them struggling, while trained doctors become hypocrites to Hippocrates.

[catty-cb 4,412]

Regardless of whether we should have the death penalty of not, an execution that takes over 15 minutes to kill the person isn't humane, especially for his children who had to watch it happen.

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/9619618/Ohio-killer-executed-with-new-lethal-combo

[Fatherted 129]

Food speculators...what is your definition of this? All this means to me is I'm saying my interpretation of the truth "Corn growth are down 1% logically food prices will go up 2%".

Doesn't make it so. I could say Simtropolis will be abandoned tomorrow because SC5 was a failure and SC4 is 11 years old, but that won't happen for a while.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Yeah, they just try to make a honest living...

Well, you are right - there may be no "law" against this kind of crime yet... high time that changes.

 

Oh, I see...

 

I agree with you there, I believe the free market should be removed from the entire agricultural sector as much as possible. Lets go back to the times where the EU had butter mountains a lakes of milk. That should drive the price of food down again. 

 

And whether you dislike food speculators or not (and to be sure here, I also want them to stop it), you can't say that food speculators are doing the speculation because they want millions of Africans to starve. To be honest, I don't ethink they even realize the consequences of their behavior. In any case, still wouldn't execute them. Unless of course, you can prove that they are deliberately manipulating food prices when its illegal, with the express purpose of killing millions of poor people through starvation, in which case I think you have proven that they took part in genocide. 

[SimCoug 5,973]

I believe the free market should be removed from the entire agricultural sector as much as possible.

The Soviet Union did that... I'm sure the millions of people who starved to death as a result would disagree. Perhaps a slow move away from a free market wouldn't have the catastrophic results that happened in Ukraine, but history has proven that any centrally controlled economy will fail to keep up with a dynamic free market. Of course, a free market will have it's own problems, but I will trust a free market over a bunch of bureaucrats any day of the week.

Now... back to our regularly scheduled topic 

[LexusInfernus 908]

The Soviet Union did that... I'm sure the millions of people who starved to death as a result would disagree. Perhaps a slow move away from a free market wouldn't have the catastrophic results that happened in Ukraine, but history has proven that any centrally controlled economy will fail to keep up with a dynamic free market. Of course, a free market will have it's own problems, but I will trust a free market over a bunch of bureaucrats any day of the week.

Now... back to our regularly scheduled topic 

 

They collectivized their farms which obviously turned out disastrous. But you don't need to do that in order to push out the free market. Just let the farms stay in the hands of the farmers and subsidize them. Also, ban all forms of speculation on food prices and remove food commodities completely from the stock exchange and financial markets. The last thing can simply be done by law. 

[Larks2242 251]

What ever happened to the good old days where you steal from me, I cut your hands off?

 

Granted there were issues back then, but they could be greatly improved upon.

[Duke87 1,070]

You are not removing problem elements. You are removing people. And frankly, there is no difference between murder and the death penalty. The latter is murder by the state, so using it is morally inconsistent.

 

Also, who will decide what 'problem elements' are? Are unemployed people 'problem elements'? Are gay people 'problem elements'? Are socialists 'problem elements'? Are people with a low IQ 'problem elements'? Are Muslims 'problem elements'?

 

I think in this context we are referring specifically to convicted criminals when we say "problem elements". If you start talking about groups such as you've named, you've left the realm of criminal justice and entered the realm of genocide, and I daresay even the vast majority of death penalty proponents would not favor that.

 

That said, it's not exactly a strange idea to think of executing people as getting rid of them. Especially if you fuss over minimizing the suffering involved, it's far more effective at getting rid of people than at punishing them. So really what you are accomplishing is eliminating a hopelessly problematic person so that once they're dead you can stop worrying about them and move on to other things. Indeed, one of the most common arguments in favor of the death penalty is along these lines: an execution is a lot less expensive than keeping people in prison for the rest of their lives... or at least it would be if the court proceedings necessary to get it to actually happen weren't so lengthy. So why waste resources?

 

I'm not fond of capital punishment myself, though, simply due to the irreversibility of it. If you put someone in prison and later discover "oops, they were innocent" or change the law so that what they did is no longer illegal, you can let them out and expunge the conviction from their record, and they can hopefully move on with their life. If you've executed someone and either of these things happens... well, there's no helping them.

 

As for avoiding wasting resources on prisons, I have an idea: end this war on drugs crap and stop throwing people in jail because they committed the heinous crime of getting high.

[astronelson 339]

The only thing the death penalty really has going for it is its 0% rate of recidivism.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

 

Larks likes the Sharia?  Do you suppose he has converted from Republican to Islam?

 

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Hammubi's Code, Eye for an eye is far more fitting. 

 

In a country with eye for an eye, everyone would soon be blind.  Was that Hammurabi?

[AcmeSigns 97]

Regardless of whether we should have the death penalty of not, an execution that takes over 15 minutes to kill the person isn't humane, especially for his children who had to watch it happen.

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/9619618/Ohio-killer-executed-with-new-lethal-combo

Does anyone think that his '1989 rape and fatal stabbing of a young pregnant woman' was 'humane'? I'm sure that there are people out there who have convinced themselves that she wasn't terrified. Or maybe it's wrong because his raping and killing of her didn't last as long as it took him to die? In my mind he got exactly what he deserved, since no one forced or coerced him into his actions against Joy Stewart (she would be his victim, whose name was oh-so-conveniently left out of the article linked ~ but then that article was seemingly written to create more sympathy for the killer...than the victim).

 

You do the crime...you do the punishment. In the case of us here in the 'un'civilized United States that means, in some states at least, if you take a life purposefully and without regard for their life/lives, then you pay the ultimate price with your own life. Personally, I think that the punishment should mirror the crime. There's way too much of this 'feel good' nonsense in pretty much every aspect of everyday life these days. Perhaps execution should be the one place where 'humane' doesn't enter the picture.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

But there is this dictum against 'cruel and unusual punishment'.  If we had carried forward the usual punishment from the 19th century without all the inventive nonsense that happened in the 20th century, we'd be doing public hangings.  As a punishment and deterrent this was no more effective than death by lethal injection.  But in the hands of a well trained hangman, it was quick, sure and pretty much bloodless.  Also provides a circus day for the feckless mob of bystanders.  There are always Mme. DeFarges.

[LexusInfernus 908]

Does anyone think that his '1989 rape and fatal stabbing of a young pregnant woman' was 'humane'? I'm sure that there are people out there who have convinced themselves that she wasn't terrified. Or maybe it's wrong because his raping and killing of her didn't last as long as it took him to die? In my mind he got exactly what he deserved, since no one forced or coerced him into his actions against Joy Stewart (she would be his victim, whose name was oh-so-conveniently left out of the article linked ~ but then that article was seemingly written to create more sympathy for the killer...than the victim).

 

You do the crime...you do the punishment. In the case of us here in the 'un'civilized United States that means, in some states at least, if you take a life purposefully and without regard for their life/lives, then you pay the ultimate price with your own life. Personally, I think that the punishment should mirror the crime. There's way too much of this 'feel good' nonsense in pretty much every aspect of everyday life these days. Perhaps execution should be the one place where 'humane' doesn't enter the picture.

 

Uncivilized indeed. By following this kind of logic the state has lowered itself to the exact same level as that of the murderer. And by extension, all the people in that state have lowered themselves to that level because they approved of this. 

[Ocram's Razr 964]

While I agree that murder is barbaric and murderers gave up all their rights, we should always kill as humanely as possible. This includes murderous criminals and tasty animals. There is also the matter of suicide and euthanasia but that is a different matter (but euthanasia should always be humane and painfree).

--Ocram

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

For lethal injections, instead of fancy petrochemical derived drugs how about a little ordinary potassium cyanide in sufficient dose.  Wouldn't take much, and it is certainly effective in less than 20 minutes.

[catty-cb 4,412]

.In the case of us here in the 'un'civilized United States that means, in some states at least, if you take a life purposefully and without regard for their life/lives, then you pay the ultimate price with your own life. Personally, I think that the punishment should mirror the crime. There's way too much of this 'feel good' nonsense in pretty much every aspect of everyday life these days. Perhaps execution should be the one place where 'humane' doesn't enter the picture.

 

 

We don't have the death penalty in New Zealand, instead here you can be sentenced to Preventive Detention; there are a number of criteria before it can be considered, the person has to have been over the age of 18 when they committed the offence, they don't have to have killed someone, anyone who has been convicted of a qualifying sexual or violent offence can be sentenced to it.

 

They can still be released at a later date if its considered safe to do so, but they are on license and can be recalled to prison at any time even for things like making unauthorized phone calls to people when they have been told not to contact them after they were released or moving somewhere unacceptable like near a school for example.

 

-catty

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ Similar to our system where a "dangerous offender" is held on a Lieutenant Governor's (Provincial) warrant that is reviewed every two years.  The offender may or may not be released if conditions warrant.  We have no capital punishment, but this raises the old question of "Who is the worst murderer: He who kills his fellow man or he who kills freedom?".

[Fatherted 129]

This thread is pointless in my opinion, the state should not kill unless proven by UNDENIABLE doubt. Did you find his DNA on the crime scene/body? Do you have CCTV footage of the killing? Do you have an honest confession? Do you have any loopholes or possible alibis? Is it truly worth capital punishment? And finally, do you have consent from the victim/victim's family (to force them to be the 'executioner' and consider life)?

The answer should be Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, and Yes. If one is the wrong answer (Except 1/2 as they are sort of one question) then you do NOT execute them, especially if there is ANY doubt in the evidence.

[timmie 988]

The dramatic Ohio execution has made the mainstream press in Belgium. It took 24 minutes before he died. Unbelievable.

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

Under US law, he suffered cruel and unusual punishment, but where's the recourse?

 

Here is an example of Canadian jurisprudence.  This guy was/is clearly schizophrenic.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

This thread is pointless in my opinion, the state should not kill unless proven by UNDENIABLE doubt. Did you find his DNA on the crime scene/body? Do you have CCTV footage of the killing? Do you have an honest confession? Do you have any loopholes or possible alibis? Is it truly worth capital punishment? And finally, do you have consent from the victim/victim's family (to force them to be the 'executioner' and consider life)?

The answer should be Yes, Yes, Yes, No, Yes, and Yes. If one is the wrong answer (Except 1/2 as they are sort of one question) then you do NOT execute them, especially if there is ANY doubt in the evidence.

The last one shouldn't need to be 'yes.' Whether a murderer has some persons(s) who love him should not prevent justice from being served.

The only reason that Ohio man took so long to die was because the normal Lethal Injection drugs were no longer allowed to be used for Lethal Injection by their manufacturer. Lethal Injection is not unusual and it is not possible to determine whether the murderer felt pain when he died. Once Euthanasia is perfected and stigma and punishment for suicide is rid of, then the technology for executions will also be more humane. I think inert gas asphyxiation, for instance, is ethical for the killing of murderers and animals.

--Ocram

[A Nonny Moose 8,262]

^ Ocram, you keep harping on this inert gas thing.  It is very cruel to be deprived of air (oxygen).  More humane would be HCN (gas chamber) all things considered.  This inert gas thing is almost the same as drowning.