SimCity: Transit and Roading Networks

[Greyflame 54]

I posted this as a thread over at the official forums, but I haven't shared my thoughts here in a while so I thought I'd copy it over. It's been said before but eh... reinforcement?

[[TL;DR version: I tried playing SC4 on 2*2 kilometer maps, and I realized that a lot of why those feel okay is because you can use and abuse 2 lane roads. The over-importance of 4-6 lane roads in the new game threatens to make the 2*2 maps feel a lot smaller.]]

News has gone kind of quiet again, so it's time for me to complain a bit. I decided to play some SC4 with the new title in mind - meaning I'd force myself to use 2*2 maps, proxy some 'curvy' roads, etc, and see how things went.

After playing, I realized something: SC2013 is downright obsessed with 4+ lane roads. 2*2 maps are small, but in my SC4 play, I was able to accomplish so much by careful and compact use of "short" zones and thin roads. None of this will be possible in the new game for the following reasons:

Dense zones require DIRECT connection to a 4+ lane road.

Dense zones are deeper zones by necessity, since depth is determined by road size.

Light Rail, which should reduce the need for big roads, REQUIRES avenues for stations.

Low-density buildings next to big roads will make for lots of empty space, because of small buildings on big lots.

The critique video I did a while back mentioned this, but I sort of let it go for a while, because I'm usually more of a suburban player and mostly build low-density anyways. But after playing SC4 with fresh eyes I realized just how important control over road size is. In my downtown areas, the only way I managed to fit everything in was to 'wrap' my bigger roads around, then use smaller "capabilities" amid very large and dense buildings.

I mean, just look at all the screenshots. I see more 4 lane roads than 2 lane roads. They use 4 lane roads in suburban grids, in the middle of universities, etc. At first I figured the people making those cities just didn't want to deal with any traffic. But now I'm realizing that the game really punishes 2 lane road use.

I think this would be one of the easiest, and biggest, fixes they could make before the release date. Allow dense buildings to develop along 2-lane roads, allow "compact" zones to be layed along 4-lanes, and add a non-avenue tram station. Pretty please, Maxis? *Puppy Eyes*

---

On the flip side, playing SC4 reminded me there's a lot I'm looking forward to in 2013. The improved transit-tracking engine will be soooo nice. I end up with some really wonky job-zots in SC4 when it would be LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the commute to exceed 1 mile. And trying to fit each and every house into arbitrary service-building radius's is frustrating.

And while SC4 can have things like lightrail, curvy roads, etc, it will be nice to have them be part of the core game because as much as I support modding, the use of mods can be far from user friendly and I can spend hours trying to fit puzzle pieces together when a drag-and-drop system will take a matter of seconds.

[theBrad 25]

To be fair - most streets in high dense areas (downtown) are 4 lanes. The key is these are narrow 4 lane streets with no median or suicide lane. What I am most concerned about is how the tiles develop which I believe produces the sparseness of the game images.

[gweed123 33]

To be fair - most streets in high dense areas (downtown) are 4 lanes. The key is these are narrow 4 lane streets with no median or suicide lane. What I am most concerned about is how the tiles develop which I believe produces the sparseness of the game images.

I don't particularly like the idea of not being able to control density. It's one of the most fundamental things that affects the look of your city. Personally, I wish there were 4 density categories, not just 3: single detached residential, semis and towns, mid-rise, high-rise.

I mean, I understand the need to "simplify" the game, but understanding zoning is a pretty basic thing, and the option to choose what we want where should be included.

[Porter 68]

-cough cough- Ocram, curved suspension bridges do in fact exist.... -cough-

[Haljackey 17,385]

Oh they do exist, they're just incredibly difficult to design and engineer. I love that one in Brazil.

[MegaCitySim 68]

No underground view has been revealed yet. Most assume that's the reason subway was taken out....

With no water pipes and no subway I doubt there will be a underground view.

I think underground view is just another info layer that can be easily added. Subway sim alone is a lot of design work so they probably make it an expansion. Disappointing though....I recall having to budget for subway station space 'just in case' the subway mod or expansion eventually materialize.

Another reason I think subway is cancelled, is...the new glass box may not be able to join rails between 2 x 2 tiles? Maybe that's the reason why the inter-city (or inter-town) connections are pre-placed?

Here's why I think subway have been taken out:

Glassbox is all based on the visual side of simulating. Where as in previous versions of simcity, transportation has been simulated and shown using statistics that predict how many cars would be there at that specific point in time. Visual simulation works great for cars and trains, but not so well for the things you can't see. So instead of putting resources into a transportation option that will never, or hardly ever, be seen they decided that it was better and more practical to develop trams or light rail, something visual. Instead of having to hunt around for subway stops to see if people are using the network, you can just follow the trams.

Sure, if there were an underground view, or they decided to use the view to show resources like water or power to show the subway, that would somehow solve the issues mentioned above. But it would also mean that its harder to be able to view because every time you wanted to see how the subway was doing you would have to switch to a different view, then to be able to see the buildings around each station, or where to best put the station, you would have to switch the view back etc.

For glassbox, trams are better than subways.

I guess I can live with trams. I like trams. I just don't think it is realistic to build any rail system with more than say 2 stops inside the very tiny tiles. What do you think? Is there any chance we get to build rails on the region level. I can't find any info on that.

[Greyflame 54]

No underground view has been revealed yet. Most assume that's the reason subway was taken out....

With no water pipes and no subway I doubt there will be a underground view.

I think underground view is just another info layer that can be easily added. Subway sim alone is a lot of design work so they probably make it an expansion. Disappointing though....I recall having to budget for subway station space 'just in case' the subway mod or expansion eventually materialize.

Another reason I think subway is cancelled, is...the new glass box may not be able to join rails between 2 x 2 tiles? Maybe that's the reason why the inter-city (or inter-town) connections are pre-placed?

Here's why I think subway have been taken out:

Glassbox is all based on the visual side of simulating. Where as in previous versions of simcity, transportation has been simulated and shown using statistics that predict how many cars would be there at that specific point in time. Visual simulation works great for cars and trains, but not so well for the things you can't see. So instead of putting resources into a transportation option that will never, or hardly ever, be seen they decided that it was better and more practical to develop trams or light rail, something visual. Instead of having to hunt around for subway stops to see if people are using the network, you can just follow the trams.

Sure, if there were an underground view, or they decided to use the view to show resources like water or power to show the subway, that would somehow solve the issues mentioned above. But it would also mean that its harder to be able to view because every time you wanted to see how the subway was doing you would have to switch to a different view, then to be able to see the buildings around each station, or where to best put the station, you would have to switch the view back etc.

For glassbox, trams are better than subways.

I think you're basically right, and agree; I was thinking about it though, since the game is now confirmed to have tunnels, trams running in tunnels under a city sounds a lot like a subway xD So - assuming you can in fact run trams in tunnels, and do so under buildings/etc, all they'd actually have to add is a surface station that 'connects' to these tunnels and suddenly the game has subways without actually adding any "new" transit types. Not sure if that's realistic or whatnot, just a pondering.

[Haljackey 17,385]

Well, that really depends on how tunnels can be made. If they are designed like the tunnels in SC2k-4 then you need a slope or a mountain before the game lets you build them. In SC4 the use of the hole digging lot mods are a considerable aid especially in flat/urban areas.

If we have the ability to dig a tunnel/trench wherever we want in SC2013 it would make building tunnels so much easier than in previous titles. If you can dig light rail lines below your city, then that could conceptually be considered a subway system.

[mapboy 106]

If we have the ability to dig a tunnel/trench wherever we want in SC2013 it would make building tunnels so much easier than in previous titles. If you can dig light rail lines below your city, then that could conceptually be considered a subway system.

We might yet see a mod like the hole-digging tool which may allow this, although I think it's more likely that subways are included in an expansion pack or DLC before that.

[Linoa06 1,374]

No subways either? Ah, well, I wasn't planning to buy (Origins cough), but now I'm definitely drifting back to CiM and CiM 2...

[Haljackey 17,385]

No subways either?

You might be able to make tunnels for LRT/trams so don't rule it out just because there isn't a dedicated subway network like in SC4.

[Ocram's Razr 964]

That suspension bridge looks sort of like a cable stayed bridge.

When I was talking about curved suspension bridges I was thinking about this:

Proportions, curvature and the flat section in the middle. Those are the things wrong with that picture.

--Ocram

  Edited October 31, 2012 by OcramSeattle  

[Jokurr 175]

I see no reason to not leave that up to the player. If you don't want a curvy suspension bridge, don't build one.

[dhphx 14]

Oh they do exist, they're just incredibly difficult to design and engineer. I love that one in Brazil.

That bridge in São Paulo is definitely a cable-stayed bridge, not a suspension bridge.

[Haljackey 17,385]

Curvy suspension bridges are possible... They're just redulously difficult the engineer.

[Greyflame 54]

Regarding suspension bridges, it mostly relates to whether the cable itself is sent at a bend; ie, any cable with actual tension on it is going to go straight. So a suspension bridge that has main cables that bend isn't very plausible, but the roadbed itself can bend find if you have radial cables. Or something like that. Anyways I'm mostly okay with them just leaving that up to the player to make nice; though, it seems a little contrary to some of their other design choices (which I'm also okay with) that specifically disallow the player from building dysfunctional entities. (for example, you can no longer build zones in the middle of nowhere; no more transit zots.)

And yeah, I think subways/EL etc will mostly depend on whether they eventually decided to add 'elevated' or 'sunken' stations. I'm hoping that they do. A few additional stations would go a long way in expanding the options.

[SoftcoreGamer 352]

I see no reason to not leave that up to the player. If you don't want a curvy suspension bridge, don't build one.

Maxis mentioned there are light and heavy rails, and then when probed, they confirmed users don't get to decide where to build them, except inside the 2x2 tile area, and only IF Maxis have placed a rail track through that tile, as shown by pic below.

So I'm not too sure that just because they say "yes there are bridges", it means users get to place them. I look at Ocram's cxl curve bridge picture above, and noted how long a typical suspension bridge is. Based on the small size of the tiles as shown below, and the typical size of bridges, it begs the questions:

Will users get to place bridges anywhere they like in the region? Or will users get to build bridges only within a 2x2 tile that happens to be given a river by Maxis? So far only Maxis get to play at region level so better ask... Someone in the know please advice.

  Edited November 1, 2012 by SoftcoreGamer  

[Linoa06 1,374]

No subways either?

You might be able to make tunnels for LRT/trams so don't rule it out just because there isn't a dedicated subway network like in SC4.

I have ruled it out for the online requirement already, but this really isn't giving me any more incentive. Subways are crucial to the development of any big town, and also one of my main occupations within Simcity. But if they want to leave the transit thing to Cities in Motion, by all means, this will only mean more traffic on my own forums! XD

Now if trams can be dragged underground ..... this is a different story. Cologne has this option for instance.

[Haljackey 17,385]

ubways are crucial to the development of any big town, and also one of my main occupations within Simcity.

...But that's just it. There won't be any big towns in SimCity (2013). City sizes are limited to ~2x2km² with gaps between city tiles. Sprawling metropolises may not be possible to make, and subway use ruled out by the development team.

[wtrtwnguy 3]

Looking at the picture above, I noticed how badly it looks to have just one road connection to the "city". Has anyone seen a map where a pre-built highway passes through a city tile? Or are cities just going to be essentially big cul de sacs? I have never seen a regular city with just one road leading in where the terrain allows for more than just one access point.

[MaxisGuillaume 289]

So I'm not too sure that just because they say "yes there are bridges", it means users get to place them. I look at Ocram's cxl curve bridge picture above, and noted how long a typical suspension bridge is. Based on the small size of the tiles as shown below, and the typical size of bridges, it begs the questions:

Will users get to place bridges anywhere they like in the region? Or will users get to build bridges only within a 2x2 tile that happens to be given a river by Maxis? So far only Maxis get to play at region level so better ask... Someone in the know please advice.

Yes there are bridges, and the players will get to place them.

[Screwballl 196]

Looking at the picture above, I noticed how badly it looks to have just one road connection to the "city". Has anyone seen a map where a pre-built highway passes through a city tile? Or are cities just going to be essentially big cul de sacs? I have never seen a regular city with just one road leading in where the terrain allows for more than just one access point.

As a person that has driven pretty much coast to coast in a car, I have seen that the American roadscape is actually just like that. After the Interstate system was finished, many cities started to develop along the main road going towards the interstate provided it was within reasonable distance. A perfect example is a small town in my area Crestview, FL. The downtown had historically been centered along a railroad track. But in the 60s and 70s after the interstate was finished they built up along that main road between the historical downtown towards the Interstate, and beyond some. Of course in relation to the new SC, Crestview (with ~21,000 population) covers 33 sq. km versus in game we will be limited to 4 sq km (the size of my neighborhood alone).

[Kilgry 13]

My big concern with Simcity 2013 is whether sims will attempt to find alternate routes based on the time it takes to travel a route and not the distance. If commute hour is heavy on a specific route, will the sims attempt to find an alternate route?

I don't wish to see cars piling up on a road and see an empty alternate route go unused.

[grugor 60]

My big concern with Simcity 2013 is whether sims will attempt to find alternate routes based on the time it takes to travel a route and not the distance. If commute hour is heavy on a specific route, will the sims attempt to find an alternate route?

I don't wish to see cars piling up on a road and see an empty alternate route go unused.

They have said that the traffic will find the fastest route. If for instance your avenue is backed up, the traffic will take side streets to get around the problem.

[Haljackey 17,385]

Yup its a big change from SC4 where sims try to find the most direct route rather than the fastest route/method.

While the NAM addresses the problem by significantly altering the traffic simulator, the issue cannot be fully fixed. The simulator in SC2013 aims to fix this.

  Edited November 2, 2012 by Haljackey  

[Kilgry 13]

Good news, thank you.

[Linoa06 1,374]

Hm. No metropolises either, huh? Ah well, I guess it's the price to pay for shiny graphics and casual gaming. Even though light rail is favored over subways worldwide these days...

[Haljackey 17,385]

Well LRT is considerably cheaper than a full subway network. With city sizes in SC2013 going to be smaller than its predecessors, a small metropolis might be able to fit in your city tile. If you make use of the networks included in the 'base' game you might be able to make a decent transit system but it is still too early to tell.

Modding is another big question we have right now. In SC4 we are unable to create new transportation networks... But if this is possible in SC2013 it would do wonders for something like a NAM for the game.

-(Again way too early to find evidence to back these speculations up)

[Ohadi195 30]

In my opinion as long as we can't construct this highway systems Sim City will not be a discent City builder game!

(Images were taking from XL nation - a CITIES XL fans community)

Now Maxis should take it into account that a game without HIGHWAYS, SUBWAYS and enough area to build those is USELESS.

I hope they will get themself together before it's too late. we as the community will never forgive ourself for letting this chance go away..

[JaceTwice 115]

In my opinion as long as we can't construct this highway systems Sim City will not be a discent City builder game!

[images]

(Images were taking from XL nation - a CITIES XL fans community)

Now Maxis should take it into account that a game without HIGHWAYS, SUBWAYS and enough area to build those is USELESS.

Remember that this is a city building game, not a traffic sim. The simulation of the cities themselves come before the extras. And an in-depth simulation is what Maxis has been working toward here.

But, with the new road tools all being based on 3D splines I assure you that spaghetti networks like that are possible (albeit with roads and avenues) in the new SimCity. Whether or not user-placed highways are in the game is still up for baseless speculation though.

I hope they will get themself together before it's too late. we as the community will never forgive ourself for letting this chance go away..

Might as well start kicking ourselves now since Maxis isn't adding any more features to the base game.