I HATE THE BAT

[geoff_diamond 43]

It's official.  I hate the BAT.  As I was all set to go to render with AT&T (despite some minor issues - all caused by the BAT)... I realized that all (yes, ALL) of my lights had been turned off.  Can you select them as a group and turn them back on?  Nope.  Did it turn all instances on when I turned just one on?  Nope.  It decided, at random, which ones it would turn on.  So, after spending about an hour and a half turning all the stupid lights back on... I thought I was about ready to go.

I figured I would do a last preview-render just to make sure nothing else screwy was going on before I let my computer gnaw on itself for a week rendering the building.  Well, apparently 800 lights is just too much for the BAT to handle.  I would've assumed that a 2.4G P4 with a gig of ram would be able to handle it.  I was sorely mistaken. 

Long story short: as I am unable to even render the building at zoom 1 draft quality, I don't exactly see how I am supposed to export the thing?  If anyone's got some suggestions, please PLEASE please share them.  Until then, I guess we can consider the AT&T Corporate Center project dead in its tracks.  Thank god I've only spent two weeks on it :\

[DuskTrooper 314]

800 spotlights??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Well, dont give up!!!!

[Screwballl 196]

i would suggest reducing the number of spotlights to at least under 100, otherwise you will need a 5GHz computer to render it within a week

[Cobb32118 239]

Geoff, is it giving you an actual error, or just acting like it's frozen? 

 

 I agree with DT, don't give up!  

[Dolfan348488 0]

I gave up over last week.  I tried and tried all week, to no avail.  The BAT is way over my head..........so i feel your pain.

[Alkaola 18]

its a fact that the BAT mad very diffucult.....
Its a pity but we have to live with it, dont give up !




My meaning about the BAT is *****

[+Guest]

The unsinkable BAT has hit a Iceburg.Some survived and others well died or were not able to get on.But Hate is such a strong word try dislike next time.

[RalphaelNinja 244]

[bEGINQUOTE]

4/16/2004 2:57:03 AM[/quoteDATE]

geoff_diamond[/quoteAUTHOR]

Can you select them as a group and turn them back on?

[/quoteMESSAGE][/bEGINQUOTE]

Yes, but not 800 lights. It maxes out around 300...

1. enable the tab bar which contains  the light lister tool. If you don't see the tab bar, go to customize\show UI\show tab panel to enable it.
2. If you select the lights that you wish to set before clicking on this button, you can set selected lights, or set all lights based on a global settings.

Lights are a funny thing and gMax/BAT is not meant to work with a light in every room. Thus you need to reduce the overall lights to enable lights in a general vicinity.

With some of my towers I start to get into trouble when the number of lights is greater then 200. Even then I reduce it to around 120.

The worst part of lighting is that we don't have exclusion or inclusion which could allow us to get around the max light problem by shining a single direct light on a wall of windows and only include the windows that you wish to light up.

If you can reduce your lighting down to a 100, then you should have no problems.

Good luck...

Ralphael

[vil 3]

love = hate

[DuskTrooper 314]

Wait- I am begginning to think he means 800 windows, not spotlights............

Night windows are a different issue...

[geoff_diamond 43]

thanks for all the support guys (and gals?)...

 

Dusk... I do mean 800 lights, not 800 windows.  Here is how the building was built (I can't believe I am going to reveal this since I'm sure it was the most ass-backwards way to do things):

 

I created a solid black box (which was pictured in the very first post about AT&T) with all the appropriate set-backs and the general shape of the roof.  This then became nothing more than a canvas of sorts that I was going to construct the rest of the building on top of.

 

Then, I clad the entire building in smaller pieces that would make up the entire facade, sort of like an exoskeleton.  The down-side to this approach is, obviously, since all the windows are, in reality, a single mesh... I am unable to select individuals and just light them using the basic maxis technique.

 

The upside to the method, is that I can't get multi-materials to ever work for me... so, I didn't have a choice.  Not really an up-side, I suppose, more of a necessity.

 

So, the dilemma is this:  basically, everyone's telling me that if I have more than 200 lights or so, I can, realistically, forget about ever being able to render the building.  However, I can already hear the howling in the STEX if I release the building with a paltry 200 windows lit (It needs more night-lighting!!!)

 

So... any suggestions?  I AM OPEN TO ANYTHING AT THIS POINT.  I just want this building out the door so I cam move on with my life!

[geoff_diamond 43]

oh, and btw... Raph... thanks for that helpful little tid-bit about the light selector... I hadn't seen that one in any of the tutorials or gmax manuals

 

Should be useful in the future.

[SimGoober 2,350]

Without seeing your building, are all (or atleast many) of your windows ona plane?  If that is the case, you an try deleting the one window and making individual ones.  If they are all similar, making one, then setting texture and cloning or arraying it should be fairly quick.  You can then use regular nite light textures.  Also, if there are bunches of windows like i suspect, there is a thread on a script that has been done to randomize lighting on these.

[Rickk 16]

Now the BAT is not all that bad.

What's bad is the huge learning curve.

I had to go to college to learn how to use a 3D Modelling program (I learned Lightwave, but was able to take what I learned and apply it to 3DS Max and the BAT is essentially 3DS Max 6 without the ability to render except for in game). That means this very same program (essentially) made almost every 3D-game's graphics (there are a few that used Maya or Lightwave, but not that many - Maya is generally used for movies and Lightwave for hobbiests or architectural firms that don't use AutoCad)

The truth is it just takes practice. Sure, it's a little difficult to control and spin and make things appear just where you want them - but it's better than anything Maxis has ever given us to make buildings with (yes, even SCURK). Not only that, but as a testimony to how much Maxis enjoys its community, they actually had to pay to license gMax so that we could all use it.

Now complaining isn't going to get you anywhere, so go do something about it. Buy a 3DS Max book and teach yourself, or just keep toying with primitives (that's how I make all of my buildings, just basic shapes mathmatically put together).

[Cobb32118 239]

Geoff, this is easily fixable.  (Okay, not easily, but compared to all the work you've already done, it is!)  From the looks of the building, each of those huge sections has vertical sides.  Create a row of simple extruded rectangles for the windows at each base and array them in the Z direction however many times you need to.  Be sure to name them windowxxxsomething, so that you can find them with the textfinder.  I know that sounds like a clunky solution, but it definitely works.  After I'm done, I select all of the windowwhateverxxx files, then randomly go through the list and deselect a lot of them, and the ones that are left over get the light-enabled check box.  Although it sounds like that would take forever, it really doesn't.  Just pick a nice 20 minute period when you can have some peace and quiet, and keep the cats away from your mouse pad. 

 

[geoff_diamond 43]

Rickk... thanks for your feedback... for the record... I have a stack of Max books and have read every tutorial available to me on Simtropolis... for some reason... multi-materials still don't want to work (I pick a face or a poly to receive a material and the whole normal gets it instead).

 

As for SimGoober and Cobb's suggestion... a combination of these two sounds VERY reasonable to me.  This could well be the direction I end up going.  I am going to class in a few hours, and if there is no progress on the export by the time I get back, I'm going to cancel it, delete the window-box and make individual windows.

 

It's a crap task, but, I guess it will be worth in the end or something? *until the building ends up getting like a 7.5 on the STEX... then I'll be pissed

 

At any rate, thx for the help guys and sorry for the delay for the select few of you who are anxiously awaiting the release.

[Rickk 16]

I just want to see your building, that's why I want to rallycall for support to everyone that thinks that BAT is crap.

And your building will not get a 7.5, I'm sure. That's what my WMT deserved and it got close to a 10 (I think it's like 9.76). So no worries.

Do something, though.

[geoff_diamond 43]

thx Rickk... I certainly wouldn't just throw the towel in at this point (not after spending so much time on the building)... although, I wish there weren't soooooo many stupid little problems (brighter normals, odd texture-banding, etc.)

 

I might have to take a day or two off from working on AT&T because I'm still quite frustrated, but, it will be done... eventually.

 

Thanks.

[Caliban 2]

Wow, I've just logged on and have seen this thread. 800 spotlights!!!

Even with the annoying lack of include/exclude there is no BAT situation where you should ever need that number of lights. If you want to illuminate your building with nightligts just make it hollow and shove a few omnis inside.

Why can't you use multi-materials? Have you followed my tutorial here ? I managed to get it through to mrbisonm eventually
I am slightly concerned about your terminology here. You say you pick a face or poly and the normal gets it instead. As each face has a normal which word do you mean there? This might help track down the problem.


Out of curiousity were your lights casting shadows? Depending on what size maps you have specified shadowmaps take up a lot of RAM. I calculated that the huge lighting rig needs 213.25MB of RAM just for shadowmaps when people were wondering why RAM issues came up so fast on big buildings.

[geoff_diamond 43]

Cal-

 

It is very likely that I am just throwing around terminology without understanding what I'm saying .  Okay, let me try to explain this like I really want to... I pick what I consider to be a face - let's just say it's one side of a box - for example.

 

Most of the time, when I try to apply a material to that side of the box that's different than the material that's on the rest of the box, it will just apply my material to the whole thing and overwrite what was already there.

 

As far as the need for 800 spotlights goes... I think I outlined why I had to do it earlier in the thread.  I'm sure that it was the absolute most asanine way to ever go about putting together a BAT building, but, it was the only method my feeble little mind could conjure up.  At any rate, I have received some great ideas from other people who have responded to this thread that should, eventually, help me to complete the building and... *gasp* actually get it exported.

 

So, if you want to discuss this further, I would LOVE to do so through priv. msg.... I could stand to pick your brain for days weeks on end!

[Cobb32118 239]

Sorry SimGoober, I didn't realize you had just suggested the same thing.

 

Okay, now I hate the BAT too -- because I lost about 4 hours worth of work and have to reconstruct about 1,000 objects (assuming I even finish it at all now).  But... Dusktrooper specifically (or anybody else who would know)... remember when you told Phillippbo that he would probably have a backup file when his got corrupted?  Do you know where that would be, or what it would look like?  It would be a gmax file, right?  I am assuming that if I pull up all the *.gmax files on my c:/ drive that were modified today, and there's no backup, then it's gone. 

[Caliban 2]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't putting you down in anyway if it came across like that. I just though 800 spotlights was funny

I think you have done great work, especially considering its a completely new program to you with a serious learning curve.

I will gladly try to help with any problems, questions, etc you have.. whether by PM or forum.

If you want to dice up the building to assign night windows textures I suggest you read my response to this thread for ideas.

I have to say personally I love 3DS Max and am very fond of gMax. The only things I hate are gMaxs bizarrely common crashes and the BAT renderer (though I'm glad to have it).

Keep at it

[n74704 21]

i can say that i've tried this tool, and for the price we got it at and the ability to do the many things Maxis can't, its wonderful...

 

i can also say i've tried this tool, and for the problems it has, and the clunky user interface, and the horrendous render times, it's horrible...

 

it's all how you look at it.  i've lost many models to this beast, and i hate it for that, but you have to remember that this is free and it goes with the saying -

 

 

you get what you pay for

[phillippbo 54]

The folder you're looking for is the autoback folder Cobb:

C:\gmax\autoback

There's several files in there, so just choose to open the one that was most recently changed (it's probably the last one that gmax backed up). When you open the file from inside the BAT, you'll need to use File >Open and navigate to the autoback folder (be sure to tell the window to show you all files) and pick the one that you determined was saved last (you can right-click on it and pick properties to see when it was last changed). Once it's opened, you'll need to save it again as a .gmax instead of a .gx (or I think there's a couple of other extensions in there). The only thing is - you haven't already started working on the building again have you? If you have, I think there's only one file in there that might have your model in it (but I'm not at home, and I can't remember the name of the file). You might lose a couple of textures or what-have-you, but it's better than starting all over.

Hope that helped...

[Caliban 2]

[bEGINQUOTE]

4/16/2004 1:42:02 PM[/quoteDATE]

n74704[/quoteAUTHOR]

i can also say i've tried this tool, and for the problems it has, and the clunky user interface, and the horrendous render times, it's horrible...

you get what you pay for

[/quoteMESSAGE][/bEGINQUOTE]

You can completely change just about every aspect of the UI if you have the patience. It is common among professionals to define the quad menus (right click menu) with the functions most often used in their line (ie. modeling, animating, texturing etc)

[Cobb32118 239]

[bEGINQUOTE]

4/16/2004 1:46:17 PM[/quoteDATE]

phillippbo[/quoteAUTHOR]

The folder you're looking for is the autoback folder Cobb: C:gmaxautoback There's several files in there, so just choose to open the one that was most recently changed (it's probably the last one that gmax backed up). When you open the file from inside the BAT, you'll need to use File >Open and navigate to the autoback folder (be sure to tell the window to show you all files) and pick the one that you determined was saved last (you can right-click on it and pick properties to see when it was last 'changed'). Once it's opened, you'll need to save it again as a .gmax instead of a .gx (or I think there's a couple of other extensions in there). The only thing is - you haven't already started working on the building again have you? If you have, I think there's only one file in there that might have your model in it (but I'm not at home, and I can't remember the name of the file). You might lose a couple of textures or what-have-you, but it's better than starting all over. Hope that helped... [/quoteMESSAGE][/bEGINQUOTE]

Phillippbo -- thanks very much!  Actually yeah I started working again from a way WAY earlier version (at least the dome and hundreds of curved wall portions were on it).  So I think that last backup is now gone.  As it turned out, I found a better way to add my several thousand structures, so my artistic temperament has cooled from  to  now.

And I did find those .gx files earlier, before I continued working, but I couldn't pull them up.  I tried it again just now and it worked.  Actually before, it's possible I was trying to import instead of just open.  So now at least in the future, I'll know that works.  It also turns out I had save selected my 3 different types of windows and balconies as a separate file, and all I had to do was re-merge them.  So about 2 of those hours were recovered.

Geoff, sorry to hijack your thread, but I figured it was appropriate since I was hating the BAT too for a bit!

[DuskTrooper 314]

Why dont you try making regular windows for windows, instead of spots?

[RalphaelNinja 244]

I have put in a request to Maxis to add the include/exclude light function and have directed them here to this thread on some of the problems that we have been having with lights. Many of us, myself included, have been using nitelite (instead of night textures) to get a greater 3d effect. However without the exclude/include function, almost every window or area needs a light.

 

With this added feature, we would be able to create neon lights (by directing the light to shine only on the neon tube object), or to light various windows of a building (without lighting the building itself and only selected windows) with a single directional nitelite. Multiple directional lights at varying intensities can be used to light multiple windows at different intensities (each without affecting the other).

 

Ralphael

[geoff_diamond 43]

hehe, no need to apologize for hijacking the thread.  I'm just glad that I'm not the only one that's frustrated (selfish, aren't I?)

 

Anyway, again, a million thanks to everyone for all your suggestions, and Cal... I'm giong to go check out that thread response you referenced a few posts back (about slicing up the building)

[Cobb32118 239]

So... did it render?  From your description, it almost sounded like it was just taking long.  You do know that many of us just set to export and then go to sleep, and check it in the morning, right?    I think this building is smaller, yet way more complicated than your other two on the STEX.