nybt-forum-threads PBGV's BAT Thread

[ilikehotdogsalot 311]

Nice! Will you be releasing your other bats that (look) completed?

[Vlasky 1,803]

And once you start doing all that, I'm sure many of us will have a heart attack

btw Sorry to hear about problems that stick is causing and the delay. it looks like your evil super computer continues to torture you

[PBGV103 729]

What do you all think about this? I'm wondering if the bump map for the windows is slightly too strong.

[Darknono35 3,138]

Wow awesome !!

What I think about this ? Upload it now

Great job buddy

[Girafe 1,729]

Looks already good,

Certain panels of glass are odd, we can see "ripples", which are not realistic.

Flags are strange too. I would increase a slightest bit the saturation of the leaves or add a reflexion color (green between 0.15 to 0.3)

Blinds would deserve more variety in the open moreover I don't know if you modelized them but they are too near from the glass.

[Parisian 556]

No PBGV, this is awsome. Those Park Avenue buildings u made few times ago look just perfect of realism to me. I love this one, as I love your citicorp

[blunder 1,080]

I have no experience with bump maps so i can't comment on that, but i would like to say the flora at ground level looks great. Is that part of 3ds' library? did you make it? get it somewhere else? I've been looking for small bushes like that....

[Ion_Cannon 677]

I see what Girafe means when he talks about the ripples in some panes of the glass but it really won't be noticable in game, everything else is just perfect

[libellibicus 396]

The roof and the trees/flora are amazing.

[maikeli.1 12]

It is Beautiful and 299 Park ave is Really good They don't need any more work they look Ready to upload

[Jasoncw 11,954]

I agree with Girafe.

[PBGV103 729]

I definitely agree with those points, except the flags and trees don't bother me too much, but I'll try what you suggested with the trees. As far as the blinds go, every model I've made before the Lever House has had the blinds integrated into the window material. It's a little more simple to do and cuts down on the render time, but now that I have this new computer I'll be switching everything over to modeled blinds. I'm just dreading switching 345 Park Ave over. The way the windows are set up I'll to adjust fassadeblinds manually for each of the window groups. I also think the bump intensity on the windows is a little strong, but I backed it down a little and am waiting on a re-render right now.

[PBGV103 729]

I reworked the window material and used fassadeblinds. Right now only the front blinds are done, and please ignore the color, I haven't been able to play with that material yet. I'm not very happy with the blind lengths right now. I also did what Girafe suggested on the trees, so please let me know if you like them better now. I don't see a huge difference personally.

[Darknono35 3,138]

Great, it's better.

I think your blinds should be more grey. About your trees, they look like more real

So far, it's an impressive building, congrats for your work

[Girafe 1,729]

Yep it's better for the trees and glass.

Why the blinds are not more than 50% closed?

You can try to adjust refraction color which could be too blue (personaly I like it how it is).

At the closest zoom, we can see that the floors are empty. For avoiding this effect, you can try to put maps on the floor (like the night version of Simfox's building). I think Jasoncw could help you more than me on this subject.

This project is coming nicely

[kellydale2003 2,276]

I think the trees look good also!

As for the glass there's a lot of things that can come into play here...

1) The thickness of the glass can determine how dark or light the inside can be... which ultimately results in the density of color. In my opinion I just use planes. For lobby floors I use boxes for more of a realistic feel (caustics, and interior detailing).

2) Floor color - A lot of people just believing that a floor color is always grey will always be wrong. I usually leave a light floor color. But if I want drama and want the blinds to really pop I dim the color. Sometimes I even give a bit of a variation and color the floor a wee bit.

3) Blind color - Most people just leave blind colors as is, but building a structure in Simcity 4 is all about illusion. If you really want a certain effect you can color the blinds quite easily. My own recent discovery is that adding a reflectivity to the blinds helps prevent the white-blind effect at 90 degrees and can also give the blinds a pop in white light, and a dim in dark reflections... both making them stand out and yet not be so visible.

-- As for the blind length, if you're using a script they should easily be adjustable. I remember downloading a fassade blind script someplace... I edited it myself to my liking and my blinds come out perfectly everytime. And from the looks of it... it seems like it's a script you're using! (make sure to back-up the original script). The script should be editable around where LTBL is.

4) Reflective environment - There are many ways to do this one! I preferrably use a plane and a material adjusted to the environment. If I have a building that will be highly reflective and that is blue... I try use a photo that will balance the blueness of the windows. It's all about what the glass looks like in real life really. I know I always nag you about this... but it seems like you use the same reflection plane over and over that only reflects white! haha

Sure sure I give you a break on Citi Group tower (simply because I seen a video where it only reflects white light in the summer), but other towers reflect all arrays of light from every angle. Some glass is colored and will filter other light, as opposed to others.

I have maybe about 10 different photos that I frequently use for reflections in my BATs. Some range from orangey redness photos, to white grey photos, to blue photos. Some taken in sunset, midday or morning. The contrast, brightness, etc all matters.

I would be stupid to say that to only use photos to that of around 13:00 (around Simcity 4 Day time)... and the reason is simple. Some reflections need harsh light to reflect off... while others need little contrast to reflect.

So it's mainly about figuring out the right combinations of things! As a young painter... a good way to tell if you got the right color is to compare it to something similar or exact in photoshop. Turn it upside down to see if the reflections should be smaller or larger. Or photoshop it to Simcity 4 if it stands good with the final environment it will be exported to!

The good thing about learning these combinations is skill you build over time, and the library you collect over time. I know you probably don't like being schooled on things... (because most of the time I really don't, but I still keep an open mind)... but just try it out!

Remember... Start all materials with Arch & Design, and that it's all about illusion!

, kellydale2003

ps; I usually keep my reflectivity at 2.2, and noise at a size of 2.2 with 0.05 in effect. BRDF: 0 degrees @ 0.85, 90 degrees @ 1.0 (The BRDF usually depends on the real life glass or the effect you want).

[PBGV103 729]

Thanks Kelly, I just use the transparency settings to affect how much light gets through the glass. It just seems like the most simple way to do that. For the floors I always just use a white tile unless I know it's supposed to be something different, and for blind color I usually start with a standard white, off-white, or grey unless it has some crazy color in real life. Then I use the refraction color to get the right tint. As you can see below it works pretty well, or at least I think so.

Let me know what you think. Please note I only put blinds in the tower section so far but the rest will be done. I think it looks good so far but I'm considering modeling cubicles and offices if they don't take up too many resources. The idea about putting them into a material on the floor sounds pretty complicated and somehow I doubt the result would live up to my expectations.

[Aaron Graham 4,417]

I also did what Girafe suggested on the trees, so please let me know if you like them better now. I don't see a huge difference personally.

I can see a big differents in the trees, I think they look a little better.

I'm happy to see the curtains in a off white look. I have to say this building went through a lot of changes.

[darn42 1,268]

I liked the 2nd to last edition of the windows better. The most recent is very obvious that there is nothing in the building.

Something I tell people often, is that I like to change the reflectivity function of glass on my buildings because of the way it is viewed in simcity. Generally .2 and .9 with a curve of 5 give a good balance of reflectivity and transparency. You can find the functions under the BRDF tab of arch and design.

[PBGV103 729]

I've been using .2 and .9 with a curve of 8. As far as the transparency of the windows goes, I think what I have now looks very close to the real building and I am going for realism here. My solution to the floors looking empty is to model out the interior.

[darn42 1,268]

Did you modify the reflection and transparency values? As a rule, normal, clear glass should be at 1 transparency and reflectivity if you are changing the function to compensate for the orthographic preview. I stand by my case that the windows should be more reflective/opaque at that angle.

Look at the vertical middle of the building in this image, where the other building is reflected (ignore the areas with lights visible, strong direct refractions tend to take precedence over reflections in transparent objects). You can see it's mostly opaque there. Give or take a few floors as reference, the SC4 reference should still be mostly reflective rather than transparent.

As for modeling floors, don't go overboard with it. Do very simple stuff. Try not to get any more detailed than primitives. I tried modeling an interior of a big building and it very quickly got very out of hand, while at the same time not being worth the effort.

[Jasoncw 11,954]

The glass should be thin glass. Caustics don't really come into play either. Even when professionals are doing glass for close up perspective renders for architectural visualizations, most of the time they still use thin glass.

For the blinds, I think once you're happy with the general arrangement of them, find a photo of the building and start doing some of them manually. Right now they feel very randomized, but you'll want there to be some rows of closed or open windows in there to represent where a tenant has closed or opened all of the windows in their space.

For the office floors what I usually do is just use a busy looking texture (lots of orthogonal shapes and broader areas where it's brighter or darker) and I randomize it so the floors don't repeat. Modeling the interior probably won't be necessary. First start out with modeling the partitions between the tenants, and then go from there imo.

Also I think you can optimize some more of your materials. For example, the roof on the higher part of the lowrise portion is very reflective. I think it should be less reflective, and then you'll also be able to check the FG + Highlights Only option which will speed it up. Pretty much any material that isn't explicitly reflective or polished can have that turned on.

[PBGV103 729]

Darn, there are a couple problems I have with the image you posted. First it's at sunset so the light in general is not the same, and second, the angle should be looking down at the building, not up in order to be a good guide. I'll post a screen cap of the material settings I'm using when it's finished with the current render, but if I remember correctly the settings are as follows: 1 for both reflectivity and glossiness and .7 for transparency. I had transparency at 1 as well but at that setting there were no reflections what so ever.

Jason, I agree with you on the blinds but it would be incredibly time consuming to tweak each individual set of blinds. Doing something like that window by window would take hours to make it look remotely convincing. Right now it's just using fassadeblinds converted into editable polys. What I had before was several materials with the blinds "built in" and arranged so there would be groups of similar lengths, but I got rid of that because a couple people told me there wasn't enough variation. I guess I can't make everyone happy.

This image is obviously very old, but it gives you an idea of what I think I should be going for (other than the colors).

[darn42 1,268]

I agree with the fact that the sunset makes my reference less accurate, but I prefer using angles from the ground if I can't get a good aerial picture of the building. Especially when I am trying to figure out how reflective to make it. It's much easier to find a picture that fits the right angle I look for than in the air. The aerial picture you have ends up being a shallow angle looking at the building you want to.

Besides, glass is always more reflective at steeper angles. The minimum reflectivity won't change based on the building. If you still want to make your glass more clear than transparent, don't go below the reflectivity of glass that jasoncw had on his inland steel building. That seems to be about the lowest acceptable bound of what looks good/realistic. Right now there are no reflections on the non-blinded sections of your building. I think this could be solved by lowering the angle of the function from 8 to something like 5 or 6.

[gutterclub 2,729]

I think the glass material is great and ready, all you need to do is as Jason suggested, add some busy looking textures to the actual floors..I believe he used this in the latest inland Steel building and UN Building, needless to say both are great..ultimately I think with all the different suggestions you are getting, you will go with how you want it to be and I think it will be amazing as all the work you have shown us generally is....i.e just release something for us all

[PBGV103 729]

I did have a question about the UN Building. It always looked a little odd to me in the game and I'm wondering if the tower section was scaled up at all for the game. I know I go by 133% since its mathematically correct, but to me it almost looks like it wasn't scaled up at all. Maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me though.

I decreased the curve from 8 to 5 and I think it made a little bit of a difference. Here's the current settings.

And here's what it looks like.

As far as filling the floors, I will probably make a set of cubicles and offices that I can copy all the way up the building and rearrange for the different floors. It would be amazing if I could find some floor plans too.

And there are about 6500 blinds so changing them piece by piece would be a huge pain. I might just grab the lower edges and scale them together in groups but that's about the only way I can see to do it and even that would take a couple hours to do the whole building.

[Jasoncw 11,954]

What I mean for the blinds is that you would have the automatic ones be the majority, and then for say, 10 floors, you'd go through and manually make them look like something. You'd just go in and change the blinds where needed.

It kind of reminds me of how back in the day there was this nitelites randomizer script that would take all your window objects in gmax and randomly make some of them nitelites. So you'd end up with an office buildings with random single windows turned on all over the building. But of course what you'd want is larger rows of windows lit up with the occasional small clumps of windows lit up.

Anyway I think you'd get more mileage working on the blinds than working on the furniture.

[Francis90b 748]

The recent developements are quite interesting.

Blinds:

Speaking of blinds, i'd say that it wouldn't hurt make them more homogeneous than now, as they seem to be in the RL building - from the pic you yourself use as a reference, they seem to be arranged in bigger, more compact "groups".

Another thing that strikes me is that on your model the blinds seem to slide from top-down, from ceiling to floor (somehow like those), while on the reference pic they seem to slide horizontally (somehow like those).

You seem to be considering about making one set of cublicles, arraying and placing them as you see fit - perhaps you might model a set of 10-15 planes per floor, those would be horizontally-sliding blinds placed behind the glass.

At different floors those planes might have different lenghts, you might model them for just one floor, array them to each floor ahd then change their lenght here and there to achieve a believable effect.

Variation on them would be achieved via a (slight, and barely noticeable) bump map, perhaps with a couple of variations to be used at different floors.

[PBGV103 729]

Francis, here's a close up of the blinds. They are definitely the pull-down type, not the sliding type. Now back in the early 1960s when that photo was taken they may have been the sliding type, I'm not sure. For the cubicles, my plan is model a basic layout and office chairs and desks along with a couple offices and meeting rooms. I think I'll end up with enough variation, and hey, I have 32GB of memory now so I definitely won't run out.

[Francis90b 748]

Yep, i was talking according to what i could see in that pic - and i'd say it's quite safe to say there were of the sliding type back then.

On the pic you posted now, there's still one sliding type curtain behind all the pull down blinds, shortly above the "chase" sign on your left - i took a further look and there are sliding curtains still left there, for example, somewhere on the building's shorter section.

Speaking about the pull down type, i get the impression that those on your model might be a slight bit too randomized if compared to what i could see by looking at the current reality.

This said, do you plan to portray the building at a specific time, or do you plan using features that there had been at any point in it's history, not necessarily at the same time (that's what, IIRC, the UN HQ guys did)?

If the first one is right, then you'd need to add some sliding blinds too.

If the latter one is right, you might just switch to 1960's sliding blinds - for they might more manageable and easier to edit and change than the pull down type (probably you'd get over with no more than 500 blinds rather than the 6500 ones you currently have, and while you might have a beast as a PC, you're still human ).