Solo Trading

[ScaryMonkey 0]

Originally posted by: PyroMancer

Or you could just wait until a Hack/Mod comes out. I'm sure one will be out eventually after all the game hasn't been out a full week yet so there hasn't been much time for that yet.

I mean after all people talk about how SC4 is superior because of all the "fan support" along with the fact it has better simulation. But the "fan support" is nothing more then hacks and mods to the game. Cities XL is a nice pretty gfx engine from what I've seen. I'm sure in time some people will make some kick ass mods. And probably even ones that do stuff like unlock Mass transit and lower Omnicorp's trade prices.

quote>

I wouldn't be so sure;  lots of games that had plenty of great potential for mods were never modded very heavily because the core game itself was not fun enough to keep people interested for that long.  It could go either way with Cities XL... But I confess I don't have high hopes.

And personally there is nothing wrong with that. Once a person buys software, such as a game, they have the right to use that software however they see fit for their own "personal" use. So if they want alt it so Cities XL looks like it's on say Mars (SimMars Mod hehe) when in SP then they are perfectly within their right to do so. Now if they try and sell it they might have some legal issues.

quote>

As His Divine Hand correctly stated, you don't have that right, it's just that most game companies don't care as long as you're not profiting from it or undermining them in some way.  In fact, in one sense you could say that none of us has ever truly "bought" a game before, we've just bought a piece of media with a licence attached to it.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

 

[Kredit 0]

Originally posted by: His Divine Hand

Originally posted by: Psycho_Teddy

Also, if they had no intention of fully supporting their solo mode then it should not have been included in the game in the first place.quote>

I fully, 100% agree with you here.  

Originally posted by: PyroMancer

Originally posted by: rhenry

I was looking for people talking about this today. I am pretty much convinced by now that it's just not even possible to build a very large city without being on the PO. When it comes time to buy resources from Omnicorp, you never have enough money or he's not selling any to begin with. The only maps that have a respectable amount of oil have no water and visa versa.

I thought maybe if I just started buying oil from him as early as possible, before I even needed any, then it might help but it doesn't seem to help at all. 

So the basic conclusion after 4 days with this game is that solo mode is just a demo version for the PO mode. You play solo until your frustrated with your limitations and then you give up and buy your online membership.

I'm 100% certain of it.

I've already found myself trying to dig out my old wireless adapter to put my game computer online, which I did not want to do out of fear of viruses. 

but if I want to play the game to it's full potential, what choice is there?

Resistance is futile. You must assimilate.quote>

Or you could just wait until a Hack/Mod comes out. I'm sure one will be out eventually after all the game hasn't been out a full week yet so there hasn't been much time for that yet.

I mean after all people talk about how SC4 is superior because of all the "fan support" along with the fact it has better simulation. But the "fan support" is nothing more then hacks and mods to the game. Cities XL is a nice pretty gfx engine from what I've seen. I'm sure in time some people will make some kick ass mods. And probably even ones that do stuff like unlock Mass transit and lower Omnicorp's trade prices. quote>

Absolutely.  I had said it before, that so long as MC provides a game that people want to play, and more importantly, improve upon, then there will be mods, whether MC wants them or not.  The key is if the  right people want to make the tools to make this possible, and if the game allows for relative ease to add things to it (which, with the GEMs, I imagine it is quite possible).

And personally there is nothing wrong with that. Once a person buys software, such as a game, they have the right to use that software however they see fit for their own "personal" use. So if they want alt it so Cities XL looks like it's on say Mars (SimMars Mod hehe) when in SP then they are perfectly within their right to do so. Now if they try and sell it they might have some legal issues. 

quote>

. . . And here you fall off the boat.  You see, things like movies, books, music, and yes, video games fall under a different area of ownership.  You see, the code that your computer reads to play games like CXL is under the ownership of the game creator, not you.  All you own is the disc it comes on; the company so kindly lets you lease their wares for only the original purchasing cost.  Intellectual Properties, how loved you are.quote>

I don't think that's entirely true... You are free to do with it whatever you please (for instance, if I want to rename all files in the game folder lol.lol, that's my right. Or if I want to alter the game a bit, that's cool too. What I can't do is alter the game and then sell my changes, as that would be profiting from intellectual property which isn't mine. There's a bit of a gray area concerning "free" mods, I'm not knowledgeable on law enough to say for sure, but I think the owner of the IP would have to allow you to do that...

[John-SJ 13]

Kredit, I don't think it's that much of a gray area. I am certain that if EA wanted to, they could have put a stop to all the modders who were modding SC4. The obvious question is, why would they want to? SC4 modders have increased the value of their IP, increasing EA's profits.

On the other hand, with CXL it seems likely that MC is using the crappy trade ratios with Omni and the lack of mass transit as a means of enticing players into PO mode play. Any mod that changed Omni's behavior or enabled mass transit for SP mode play would be seen by MC as decreasing their profits, and I am sure they would act to protect their business model and their IP in this case.

[PyroMancer 0]

Originally posted by: His Divine Hand

Originally posted by: PyroMancer

And personally there is nothing wrong with that. Once a person buys software, such as a game, they have the right to use that software however they see fit for their own "personal" use. So if they want alt it so Cities XL looks like it's on say Mars (SimMars Mod hehe) when in SP then they are perfectly within their right to do so. Now if they try and sell it they might have some legal issues. 

quote>

. . . And here you fall off the boat.  You see, things like movies, books, music, and yes, video games fall under a different area of ownership.  You see, the code that your computer reads to play games like CXL is under the ownership of the game creator, not you.  All you own is the disc it comes on; the company so kindly lets you lease their wares for only the original purchasing cost.  Intellectual Properties, how loved you are.quote>

Yea and I think you overlooked the part where I said for "personal" use. If I buy a book I am perfectly within my right to cross out whole sections of that book, rip chapters out of it, paste pages in from another book or that I have written myself to change the story to make it more interesting to myself. The book is MINE I have the right to do whatever I want to it. 

Though you are right that the Intellectual Properties IN the book are not mine though and I may not distribute them as my own. As in reprint or reproduce and distribute regardless of if it's free or not. And the purchase of them is not a "Lease" which is basically a type of rental. The purchase of Media such as video games is the right of useable of the item for PERSONAL use.

To further clarify you have the right to Mod a game you purchase all you want. Whether or not you have the right to distribute that Mod you create however could be considered a legal gray area. Though as long as the implemental of the Mod does not contain any of the original software's code I do not believe there is a legal issue. Like with CounterStrike which I know was original free but not sure if they worked out some deal with Valve when they started selling it since a 3rd party developed it as I recall (Never really got into FPS) since it of course hand to include the original Half Life code to be sold as a seperate game unlike when it was simply distributed as a Mod.

Because Mods are nothing more then a set of instructions on how to change an exsisting setup. You still have to purchase the original setup (AKA software) to implement the Mod. Though things like cracks that get around copy protection to aid in the piracy of software would of course fall under the illegal section. But for the case of this discussion we'll stick to actual Mods. So Mods actually help facilitate the sale of an item.

Now because the original owner still holds the rights to the "core" software they are well within their rights to see what kind of Mods people come up with and then incorperate it into the next version of their software. This is actually one of the things that made so many people hate Microsoft early on. They would release thier programs like Office, Excel, and other such things to 3rd party developers to allow them to develop and sell "addons" (aka Mods) to their software. Microsoft would then sit back and see which addons were the most popular and then incorperate their own version of it into the newest version of the software. This of course then put those 3rd party developers out of business because they can't sell an addon if the feature comes default with core software. But since Microsoft owned the core software they were within their rights to improve upon it as they saw fit.

[Psycho_Teddy 25]

The copyright issue is a tad beyond the scope of this thread boys. Make a new one?

[mrmaye 0]

Originally posted by: CanyonVR

In the PO can you trade between your own cities?quote>

I read through this entire thread and did not find a response. I would like to know if you can and how do you do it if possible. This option seems to be the only way to sustain your cities with trading amongst your cities.

[barryrs 0]

I might say, before I continue, that a game is inherently supposed to be fun. Cities XL is not, it's frustrating. I've taken to
re-installing Simcity 4 to restore my faith in City Builder games! 

- Note that the tech below seemed to be unaware of the "Trading Problem"  they posted about on their web site....  

That said...

In response to the afore mentioned bug in the solo mode of Cities XL, here is the reply I recieved from cities xl support:


Dear Barry,

first of all thanks for your interest in Cities XL.

Let's see one by one the points you made:

- in the Solo mode you can trade only with Omnicorp (this is a feature of the game) for trading with the other people or between your cities you need to go on Planet mode

- no, you can't, this is a feature. you can sell your resources by selecting the contract of Omnicorp for "buying"

- as in the first point, this is a feature available only for Planet

- you can sell your overproduction to Omnicorp by "accepting" his offers for buying

Can you please provide us more info on this> "After experiencing difficulties trading in the online game (There was none), I set up a solo game..." we would like to understand which difficulties you have experienced and possibily helping you fixing them.

Best regards,

the Cities XL Team

[smg77 0]

Originally posted by: barryrs

I might say, before I continue, that a game is inherently supposed to be fun.quote>

It's that way on purpose. It even says so in the tutorial that Omnicorp will screw you over so to get decent trades you have to fork over money for PO. Not very subtle...

 

[moaku 74]

About modding legal issue...

Most of modable ingame data use opensource libraries under GPL licence to be interpreted / parsed... They are 3rd parties libraries provided "as is"... (you can confirm this by seeing the dlls names inside game directory... there is a lua dll, a boost dll, a freeimage dll, which is all GPL software that anyone can use freely.)

So MC can't take any legal issue regarding of modding scripts that are interpreted by these libraries. Not the fault of the users if they use an open format... not the fault of the user if an opensource interpreter interprets that way... If you use opensource software for a such project as a game company, it's your responsebility to "prevent" your custommers from using those opensource parser in a way that could be "dangerous" for you in anyway (marketting, security, whatever). There is no possible legal actions takable about that...

[EAGCE 2]

If you want to know what you can and can't do with your software you read the Terms of Service (ToS) and End User License Agreement (EULA).

[moaku 74]

EULA can say whatever it wants, it does not overrides GPL conditions for GPL librairies

They can restrict all the way they want for all the non-gpl related content however, GPLed datas can't be included in this "all the way they want"

More info about gpl licences and conditions of use for private and/or commercial use: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html

[JanYpe 17]

Originally posted by: Psycho_Teddy

The copyright issue is a tad beyond the scope of this thread boys. Make a new one?quote>

Going to echo this sentiment. This is a thread about trading in solo mode.

[jabezscratch 159]

I'm just getting going w/ the game and have read through this thread on SP trading. Just for my clarification: are most people having problems (i.e, getting frustrated) w/ the trade issues? The economies of the cities I build eventually collapse b/c they're getting resource-choked. They need more fuel but I can't get any from OmniCorp. Does this seem to be common problem among players? The cynical side of me says that MC made the SP mode impossible to push players into Planet Mode. If that's the case, I'm going to be very upset -- MC got its pound of flesh from me for the retail sale but I won`t pay a monthly fee to get the `working` version of the game.

[moaku 74]

Just to add my cynical side to yours, what makes you think think that ? Is that that you can't trade between your solo cities ? the "try the PO ! you'll get many benefits !" screens ? or the omnicorp prices cheaper online than offline ? or maybe even the fact that in solo mode you can't have 2 cities in 2 idendical maps ?

[Everclear 0]

I can almost understand the 4 to 1 ratio, but really buying 1 costs 100 a piece and buying 100 costs you 104 a peice. Why are geting penalized for buying more? And the opposite is applied to selling, selling one is 25 a piece and the price is lowered as you go. Whats the point of having the other multiples? if buying and selling 1 at a time is always the best option I don't see the point of the rest.

[logan86 1]

If i understand you correctly everclear then i would guess that is to prevent the system being exploited. if it didnt get less profitable the more you sold (the opposite of real life) then people could just do a huge retail zone and sell all the excess for massive amounts of money. or alternatively they could buy in all the resources they would ever need without really having to sweat for it. so this system also seems to be part of the push towards planet offer as it kind of hinders specialisation/ single player city growth. but it also prevents blatant exploits.

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

- in the Solo mode you can trade only with Omnicorp (this is a feature of the game) for trading with the other people or between your cities you need to go on Planet modequote>

   I would say the answer to solo trading is pretty clear folks.

We also don't need to turn this thread into yet another thread moaning about the Planet Offer.   

[Everclear 0]

Originally posted by: logan86

If i understand you correctly everclear then i would guess that is to prevent the system being exploited. if it didnt get less profitable the more you sold (the opposite of real life) then people could just do a huge retail zone and sell all the excess for massive amounts of money. or alternatively they could buy in all the resources they would ever need without really having to sweat for it. so this system also seems to be part of the push towards planet offer as it kind of hinders specialisation/ single player city growth. but it also prevents blatant exploits.quote>

And i could completly understand doing that if the main premise of the game was to do your best at runing a balanced city equal parts Heavy Ind, Manu, High tech etc. But there are many many videos produced by MC that lead you to belive that this game has to potential for specialzation. EG Do you want a city of polution or a green city. Considering the maps themselves many of them do not have all resources availible you have no choice but to trade. So yes it seems like they are treating it as an expolit when the core principles of the game lead me to belive that it's supposed to be a feature. The games kinda being skizo with itself lol.

As far as a push towards planet offer, I would think that game desiners would try to provied more content, more options, or more features giving an advantage to encourage users to subscribe instead of removing or nerfing features from solo to do it.

[ForceInfinity 0]

Originally posted by: abcvs

- in the Solo mode you can trade only with Omnicorp (this is a feature of the game) for trading with the other people or between your cities you need to go on Planet modequote>

   I would say the answer to solo trading is pretty clear folks.

We also don't need to turn this thread into yet another thread moaning about the Planet Offer.   quote>

With all due respect, many people do *not* like that answer, and they're going to want to voice that opinion.  Sadly I have the bad feeling you'll probably have your hands full if the mission is to suppress those complaints.

For my part, I plan to engage in a couple experiments with the game and it may wind up boiling down to acting glacially to get the city up in size.  But it is bothersome if it is true that it is mathematically impossible to fully build out a city in single player mode due to the Omnicorp/resource constraints.  Just from my own experience writing games, I know that getting the balance all wrong for single player is a big no no.

[smg77 0]

Originally posted by: ForceInfinity

 Just from my own experience writing games, I know that getting the balance all wrong for single player is a big no no.

quote>

It wasn't an accident. They are making the single player game painful on purpose to get you to pay for Planet Offer.

[morriswalters 16]

This is also true of the planet offer.  The only difference is that you can trade with yourself. 

What people may not understand is that demand in this game is a function of population. This is why stats are almost useless. Suppose you knew how much electricity that a particular industrial tile used. That data would be useless.  The bulk of use is by the population and that's a moving target.  That's why trading in the PO is so difficult.  Your population uses the same resources your trying to trade.

Here are some experiments if you are bent that way. 

Get your city as close to zero unemployment as possible.  Now add 20 level 1 heavy industry.  Look at your population before and after.  Rinse and repeat.  Are those 2 numbers the same?

How many people live in a small house at 1000, 10000,100000,1000000 population?

[JakeMD 107]

(thread read)

[wyseur 0]

I would encourage everyone to send them a letter and don't subscribe untill this 'feature' is changed. This is an intentional marketing trick to get you to subscribe to PO. We don't get full functionality in solo play, so indeed, we just payed for a demo version of this game.

Spread the word people, this  really has to be countered !

[8elhaj 0]

Originally posted by: ForceInfinity

Originally posted by: abcvs

- in the Solo mode you can trade only with Omnicorp (this is a feature of the game) for trading with the other people or between your cities you need to go on Planet modequote>

   I would say the answer to solo trading is pretty clear folks.

We also don't need to turn this thread into yet another thread moaning about the Planet Offer.   quote>

With all due respect, many people do *not* like that answer, and they're going to want to voice that opinion.  Sadly I have the bad feeling you'll probably have your hands full if the mission is to suppress those complaints.

For my part, I plan to engage in a couple experiments with the game and it may wind up boiling down to acting glacially to get the city up in size.  But it is bothersome if it is true that it is mathematically impossible to fully build out a city in single player mode due to the Omnicorp/resource constraints.  Just from my own experience writing games, I know that getting the balance all wrong for single player is a big no no.

quote>

You're right. Solo mode is painful to play. I was one of those that deffended Cities XL when everybody was complaining but when i played it for 5 days it really is clear that Solo Mode was just a demo or actually a beta. Why would they make us pay for a Beta test?? The game is really broken if u ant to have a city with more than 250000 people. Also the highways are a mess. and lets not forget the worse of all: the trading part of Solo Mode.

U cant specialise since the only pertener u have to trade with is Omni, and thats to the ratio of 4:1.

They have to fix the game big time. They also have to put a region mode if not then there is no reason of trying to build almost the same city on each map.

[8elhaj 0]

Can we get MC to comment on this?

Because i really cant keep playing the game. I stopped and went back to SC4

its kida sad

[Cthuulhu 0]

Why don't moderators move out of topic conversations to a happy place? The game is OK, I came here to read about self trade in the PO. Unfortunatly theres not much for information on that subject, more unfortunatly I had to finger through a few pages of off subject bickering. I like reading about what the hard core city builders have to say, but I'd enjoy reading what they had to say if it weren't a road block in my gathering information on the forum topic.

Has anyone done any succesful self trading on the PO? My first thought would be to place your trade item from city #1 in the market at very high price (ensuring that no one else will buy it) Then go to city #2 and buy that item, also place city #2's goods on the market at high price. Go back to city #1 and purchase the overpriced goods from city #2 using the funds gained from selling your original overpriced goods.

Now that whole theory depends on a few things

#1 having the money and goods available for high priced trade agreements in both cities

#2 Having the market pages load up and respond fast enough that your city doesn't crumble in the backround while you work out deals that will briefly impare your cities finances.

I haven't tried this out with my cities yet. Mostly because my cities are hanging on by a thread, which is why I came here. To read about copyrights, and nurfed SP mode...

*I agree that SP needs huge repairs and that MC needs to address their customers on their intentions with it ASAP. I just think that there is a different place for that conversation...

[Cob92 360]

Originally posted by: Androv

You can only trade with OmniCorp, I think it's to try and get more people into the Planet Offer. I reckon you should be able to trade with your other cities quote>

I don't own the game yet, but does anyone know if it's possible to modify Omnicorp to give better exchange rates?

[Barabus 0]

Originally posted by: Cobhris96

I don't own the game yet, but does anyone know if it's possible to modify Omnicorp to give better exchange rates?

quote>

It's possible but I am pretty sure discussion of how it's possible isn't allowed here on simtropolis if you get my drift.....

[tonymustang302 0]

I think it should be like this.   When in single player and playing on "easy" the omnicorp buying trade should be 1 to 1.  Medium should be 2:1, hard should be 3:1 and very hard should be 4:1.  I think id have more fun if i could buy the things i needed from omnicorp at a 2:1 trade at 50credits per resource.