Custom Content in Cities XL??? (with poll)

[gabry85 2]

Recently Philippe chatted with some SC4Devotion.com members to discuss about inclusion of Custom Content in Cities XL. What do you think of the overall discussion? Do you agree with Monte Cristo's decision to work on your requests/creations and include them in the game or do you prefer to create your buildings on your own and upload them at Simtropolis.com or other fansites for download? Discuss.

You can read the original topic, here: https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=5534.0

Additionally, you can read the discussion at CitiesXL.com, here: http://www.citiesxl.com/index.php?/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,6/func,view/id,42649/catid,5/lang,en/ (EDIT: Google Cache: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:b8ZbbyOgPOEJ:www.citiesxl.com/index.php%3F/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,6/func,view/id,42649/catid,5/lang,en/+http://www.citiesxl.com/index.php%3F/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,6/func,view/id,42649/catid,5/lang,en/&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk)

Sorry, can't quote the whole transcript. You can read it here: https://www.sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php?topic=5534.msg184855#msg184855

[Shingure 56]

I personally think that it should be a combination. The people who are able to create custom content can be able to enjoy and share with everyone else. However if the community wants something in general like a transit add-on mod like the NAM. Then independent modders and b.a.ters will have to work with the Monte Cristo team. All in all I want CXL to be customizable and extremely fluid and so far that's what it is turning out to be. Thanks Phillipe!~

[aaaaa 1]

I prefer free-rolling style.

Monte Cristo will focus on providing tools/documentations and possibly provide web site to upload custom contents. User community will focus on creating custom contents and upload them to Monte Cristo's web site to show off and distribute their creation. General user will be able to download the custom contents from Monte Cristo's web site via web browser or in-game community interaction tools. EA/Maxis model of handling custom contents of Spore/Sims2 game while playing the game is good example, I think.

Monte Cristo is not big name in game industry. They don't have enough resources to handle much of users request. So custom contents from Monte Cristo will be rather limited quantity, albeit of highest quality. They must harness talent and passion of user community.

And about contents of custom contents: Don't limit custom contents to game DATA like custom building or objects. User-contributed custom contents can be ueser interface code, new event script or even game core source code.

Look at example by hugely successful Civilization IV game series and numerous custom mod's contributed to www.civfanatics.com site. Firaxis (developer of Civilization IV game) included C++ source code of the core game DLL module of the game right in the game DVD media itself. Many Python script code and XML data file provided by Firaxis made it  trivially easy to add or modify custom event or game strategy, game rule, user interface, custom scenarios and units, tech's and numerous enhancements to original game. You can add or change fundamental game core mechanism by modifying the C++ source code of game core DLL. Such a rich and varied custom contents greatly helped popularity and longevity of the Civ 4 game series.

Don't underestimate ingenuity of user community as it is well illustrated by sites like Simtropolis or CivFanatics. Game industry in general should learn from this win-win example of harnessing user community of Civilization IV and SimCity 4.

[patriots_1228 51]

if you read correctly hes saying that he hopes they can integrate custom content but it would be very difficult to do so. or at least thats what i remember...havnt read it in a while

[BuggUla 405]

I would not want to be that limited in custom content.

[korsferd 4]

Man, without the tools that able me to create my own buildings I will not even waste my time with the game. I'm waiting excited for the game release, but I though that the game will came with the editor tools. Saddly i'm wrong! If so, I will keep with SimCity4.

[His Divine Hand 244]

Monte Cristo would be making a huge mistake in failing to incorporate user mod-ability. Almost on the scale EA has in their failure to understand why Sim City 4 is as successful as it has been.

It is the customization element that has allowed SC4 to preserve as long as it has. That is the one most important item that Monte Cristo should be learning from its involvement with the SC4 community; all of it is built around custom content creation and distribution. By making the gamers feel that there is a personal stake, or at least a personal face to what they are using, it allows a greater bond with the game. It also helps Monte Cristo by ensuring that there is a steady stream of new features added to the game that they may not be able to provide.

[Vorret 49]

I don't create custom content but I've download alot of stuff from many websites, including this one and I have to agree with the majority here, creators needs the freedom to do whatever they want to do.

If they want to block what you can use in the online modes, fine, many games does that to prevent an unfair advantage but you should be able to modify your single player experience as you wish without constraint... plus, as we all know, single player is where most people are going to spend their time, I'm a big online fan but I don't know if this type of game can be implemented successfuly so preventing everyone from creating their own custom content simply to please a few, I find that a bit rediculous on a business standpoint.

[WillR116 60]

Simsamerica would like SC4 Style and ST style content.

[Follarch 326]

Custom content for cities xl? Awesome! Can't wait to see what turns up in that game to make it look even better then it already is, which is almost hard to fathom.

[gianthaiku 5]

but here is the problem... cities xl looks gorgeous and therfore complicated (not unless somone finds a way) so it may take a month at least before any custom contene is made.

but i challenge anyone who is daring enough on purchase after playing the game to create 1 custom building in a SOACE OF 24 HOURS!!!

[Craig-Abcvs 1,595]

There is absolutely no doubt that the enduring popularity of SC4RH and the fact that we are still playing it some 6 years later is solely due to the ability of the players to customise the game and create their own content.

Players will soon loose interest in a vanilla game no matter how wonderful or ground breaking it is at first.

On occasions when I have had a STEX downloading spree for a new theme or series...  it has been like getting a whole new game all over again.   This is what makes me want to keep playing the game.

Monte Cristo would do very well to take note of this fact.    If MC is really serious about making CXL the next city building simulator game that our community will embrace, then having the support and confidence of our community is not only desirable but essential.

The key to that support and confidence is custom content.

[nihonkaranws 88]

Has anyone seen the chat archive between some SC4D admins/notable people and Da Silva of Monte Cristo? Apparently, we won't be able to mod Cities XL. Once a model is finished, we send it to the exchange (or whatever it's called) at their main site, along with a suggestion for modding. They will then do whatever they please in terms of modding, while 'following your recommendation', and then release it and making sure the community knows that you made it.

Personally, I think that this is a terrible idea. Dasilva promises that Cities XL is the main priority of Monte Cristo and that they will stick with it forever. But, ALL developing companies eventually stop managing a game; like Maxis/EA did with SC4. That means that, eventually, custom content will not be available for the game. Monte Cristo will rave all they want about their devotion to Cities XL, but eventually they WILL give it up. Dasilva mentions that he and his company want full control over the game, thereby significantly increasing the difficulties involving the creation of amazing, game-enlightening mods, ie. the NAM, terrain mods, water mods.

I honestly think that the people at Monte Cristo don't get sites like Simtropolis and SC4D. The whole forums are based around development and showcasing of custom content. So if they limit our ability to produce models and mods for the game, then Cities XL-related sites/sections will practically die off. Da Silva mentioned that he hopes there will be 'a section in the Trixies for Cities XL' next year, but concerning the custom content side, BAT/Mod Trixies exist at Simtropolis because this is where we develop them. This leads to the next question: if the community embraces XL, what becomes of the STEX? Will the majority of SC4D/Simtro members move over to the Monte Cristo forums, to be closer to where they are allowed to submit custom content?

There is no doubt about this - unless Monte Cristo makes major mind-changes - the community aspect of Cities XL will not work relative to that of SC4. It's the truth, yet the Cities XL developers don't want to face it.

[Dark_Jedi06 13]

Originally posted by: nihonkaranws Has anyone seen the chat archive between some SC4D admins/notable people and Da Silva of Monte Cristo? Apparently, we won't be able to mod Cities XL. Once a model is finished, we send it to the exchange (or whatever it's called) at their main site, along with a suggestion for modding. They will then do whatever they please in terms of modding, while 'following your recommendation', and then release it and making sure the community knows that you made it.

[...]

There is no doubt about this - unless Monte Cristo makes major mind-changes - the community aspect of Cities XL will not work relative to that of SC4. It's the truth, yet the Cities XL developers don't want to face it.quote>

I totally agree, this is an absolutely atrocious idea on Monte Cristo's part. Not only does it squelch the freedoms of those creating the custom content (and as we all know custom content always trumps the content of the designers) but as you've said, once Monte Cristo moves on Cities XL will no doubt be relegated to many a dusty shelf. Just take a look at history you will see how company support for a game is strong in the beginning (but not always ) and then it very quickly tapers off...many companies have difficulty just getting a bug patch out in a timely fashion (I believe the first patch for Sid Meiers Colonization came out only a few days ago for a game that has been out for months) so why would Monte Cristo be any different when tackling something even more complex, that is the furnishing of custom content?

As far as I can tell adding the middle man just complicates the process and attempts to vest all power and control in Monte Cristo.

[nihonkaranws 88]

Good point, I agree with you. Now to this point I am (and we all are) complaining about this terrible idea and such. But then, I guess that brings up this question; what is the point? Throughout history, mankind has made several awful decisions that were meant to be for a good cause, but then failed miserably later. However, I feel that this isn't even a question of whether the risk is necessary or not. At this point, this crazy plan doesn't even suggest any future benefit... I mean, even if this plan somehow magically worked, what would be the benefit in it? Monte Cristo watched what Maxis did: They put out a great game that came with a lot of flaws and lack of detail. When they released the BAT gamepack for Gmax, this allowed them to take the load off their shoulders and let the community make the game better, while enjoying the game more. So, apparently DaSilva came to this site to see how things work around here, and to get a sense of what city-building-related communities are all about. I've only been here since summer of 2007 (played SC4 since 2005), and after about two MONTHS I could honestly say that I get the way Simtropolis (and the rest) runs....

So then, from that, can't Monte Cristo compare their game to SC4? We all know that Cities XL seems way more realistic, but it will still be nothing compare to what the community will do to it if the developers let us work it out amongst ourselves. I mean, they may want to be 'protecting their property'.... However, by us having the absolute liberty to develop custom content without gaining any profit, we aren't necessarily changing the game, are we? The players should be the ones who choose what influences their game, not the developer. Think of it this way: BATs add to the game and mods make changes - that is, modify - the game. Yet, if you go to the store and buy a copy of Cities XL (or SC4), we haven't affected that, have we? If a player gets tired of the vanilla form, they CHOOSE to go to Simtropolis (etc.) for additional options. If they don't like them, they don't download them. If they grow tired of them, then they remove them from their plugins folder. Hence the continuous option to shape your OWN game, which is legally yours as long as you don't make any profit or harm the game by changing it.

In the end, who is harmed by the freedom to produce and release custom content? I don't think anyone is. To make a comparison, this plan is of similar sense as a homicide detective saying: 'Despite no evidence whatsoever that Mr. Smith is the killer, I'm locking him up.' < Did that make any sense? Why is Mr. Smith in prison if there is nothing against him? Same concept with the custom content for Cities XL, isn't it? Different situation, but the same concept concerning the fact that there is no harm involved with not including the 'middle man' and no benefit for Monte Cristo to be a dictator concerning the release of custom content.

[DuskTrooper 314]

*pokes head in*

[korsferd 4]

When I wrote my first post (above) I was totally unaware about the difficulties involving a on-line play. Indeed, let the players add custom works on the game will unbalance the online play.

I was thinking on the subject and would like to propose this for debate:

Can't we (Simtropolis) create custom content for CXL at first for a single-player mode. Later, through votation of the community we assemble a pack/CD (pretty much like the Collections CDs from Simtropolis, SC4 Devotion, PEG Productions, etc) of the hottest "BATs / MODs" and it will be sent to MonteCristo to become a Update/Add-on for the game?

By this way, the custom content will be elected by community and will be maintained under control by gamers and MonteCristo. And can eventually, enforce even better productions, cause everyone (Me included!) will try my best to pass the judgement of the community to enter the "official release"

Analising by this view, the NAM, PEG prod, Simgoober and BIXEL creations would be considered a official release 100% assured.

Sorry for the crap English!

[BurroDiablo 222]

Custom content is going to be essential to how long this game survives, if it wants to achieve anything near to the longevity of Sim City 4, we need non-restrictive modding abilities and all the tools required to pull them off. I'm sure there is a way to have the ability to add Custom content and provide a stable on-line environment, even if it means simply disabling online mode when Custom Files are enabled. I'm sure everybody would like to build Custom on-line cities, but the project would run into too many problems that I won't get into.

[Xyloxadoria 1,098]

The main concern i see with custom content for this game is that it is full 3D.  If someone were to make a model and not know what they were doing they could mess up the game with a high poly count model.

We could make custom content, but becuse of the full 3d nature of the game it would have to be appoved or it could really mess up the game.

[dasilva 3]

Hi guys,

You must stop comparing custom content in Cities XL as you used to see it in SC4. We will have a real different approach here.

First, we want to support custom content on our side by providing tools, tutorials, access to the dev team to raise questions and get some help.

Secondly, we do have an online experience and, personally, I wouldn't want to alienate neither the solo nor the Planet offer player in regards of custom content access. Rather, we would like to bring custom content to both player types and use our online bandwidth to distribute the additional content free of charge of course

The only question we are still asking ourselves internally is when we will start bringing this support to custom content creators. As you may know, we are a small studio and we have our full focus on releasing the game. Once this is done, we'll move on this custom content topic seriously

Cheers,

[Dark_Jedi06 13]

Originally posted by: dasilva

Hi guys,

You must stop comparing custom content in Cities XL as you used to see it in SC4. We will have a real different approach here.

First, we want to support custom content on our side by providing tools, tutorials, access to the dev team to raise questions and get some help.

Secondly, we do have an online experience and, personally, I wouldn't want to alienate neither the solo nor the Planet offer player in regards of custom content access. Rather, we would like to bring custom content to both player types and use our online bandwidth to distribute the additional content free of charge of course

The only question we are still asking ourselves internally is when we will start bringing this support to custom content creators. As you may know, we are a small studio and we have our full focus on releasing the game. Once this is done, we'll move on this custom content topic seriously

Cheers,quote>

The comparison to SC4's methods of custom content is essential and should not be shirked.

With almost no support from Maxis, outside of the initial bestowing of the BAT and Lot Editor, the fans and communities of Sim City 4 have created one of the largest repositories of Custom Content for a single video game that I've ever seen. The role of the designing company is to give us the proper tools and provide fixes for any bugs, the bureacracy of the corporate system is quite simply not attuned to allowing the same artisitc freedom that flourishes when the communiy of fans is in charge.

The forumla for a successful game is staring Monte Cristo right in the face as is evident by Simtropolis, Simcity4 Devotion, SimPeg, Simcity Central, etc.

[ch0c0 13]

its naive to think that a small studio of developers will be able to accomplish anything close to what the community at large can produce. its arguable that we have more resources, motivation, and skill than the few at MC.....

i cant help but feeling something is afoot here......what benefit would it be for MC to control the custom content? the online play excuse is simply a strawman......instead of creating a control algorithm within the game to manage the custom content, it was decided that MC will keep staff to manage the custom content, modding, severs and such?   ....given the poor economy? 

wow......

sorry, but from a business model perspective, this just doesn't sound any better than what EA promised. i hope the best for MC, but i'll be waiting on the sidelines a long time before i invest in such a risk.  SC4 is so far along that i'll keep busy for a few more years.....

[grbac80 5]

Totally agree with you ch0c0 and with all of you guys as well. Seems like MC wants to have more control over the custom content than we would all agree(for no profit??) which could make it then not so custom maybe. This is not something that I like, seems like the community thinks that way too.

MC vs. Community = xxx vs. ~300000

[Kevin 101]

Guys I think the best way to look at how Custom Content will be dealt with in CXL is Sc4's custom content was unsupported by the developer (beyond just releasing tools), and CXL's custom content will be supported by the developer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing... I think we need to wait and see how it all plays out.

[His Divine Hand 244]

Originally posted by: Cheese89

Guys I think the best way to look at how Custom Content will be dealt with in CXL is Sc4's custom content was unsupported by the developer (beyond just releasing tools), and CXL's custom content will be supported by the developer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing... I think we need to wait and see how it all plays out.

quote>

I think people also need to be reminded that it took almost two years after the release for SC4 for the Lot Editor and all of the Bat tools to be released, and that the majority of the modding tools the custom content creators use were created by fans.  The NAM is not the result of Maxis tools for modding, but of people like iLive, Rapheal Ninja, and many others who liked SC4 enough to decide to break down the inner works and modify it to the best of their ability.  

It doesn't matter what Monte Cristo thinks on this issue, if people want to modify Cities XL, they will.  All MC can really do on the issue is continued support for the game, and make sure it is attractive enough to make people interested in seeing how it's guts work.  Indeed, if MC is unwilling to release a tool that allows individuals to import their own models into the game, as long as their is a sufficient modding community interested in the game, I'm sure the community will provide their own tools to do so.  So Cheese is right; we need to wait and see how it all plays out.

[Everclear 0]

It seems like they are in a tough place, because of the Planet Offer they can not allow alot of options. You couldn't really design your own subway because thats not availible in solo mode, or any mass transportation (well i guess you could, you just wouldn't be able to use what you made). You can't really create landmarks because thats apart of the Planet Offer blueprint system. As far as any themed buildings go thats part of the reason you pay montly to get new buildings created by MC on Planet Offer. I could be wrong but my best guess is any MC approved custom content ablity will be a long way down the road, they probably have to run out of ideas first

[zonik77 0]

Originally posted by: Shingure

I personally think that it should be a combination. The people who are able to create custom content can be able to enjoy and share with everyone else. However if the community wants something in general like a transit add-on mod like the NAM. Then independent modders and b.a.ters will have to work with the Monte Cristo team. All in all I want CXL to be customizable and extremely fluid and so far that's what it is turning out to be. Thanks Phillipe!~quote>

I'm totally agree with you

[TheJackalope 0]

What they probably should do is regulate the guts and liberate the eye candy. In other words focus on allowing graphics and name mods with balanced stats to the game. For example let people submit to a download section their designs for low density elite houses that have the same stats as the vanillas. Then people could swap them in and out etc. The serious problem they have with PO is that lots of SC4 stuff is not at all balanced with the economic model of the game. That's fine in singleplayer but can play havoc when tokens and cashflow come into play.

Another interesting option for them is to have contests for the design of a landmark or exceptional buildings they have predesigned and balanced the effects for.

Also they could form groups to recreate different architectural styles. Never could figure out why they wouldn't go to some cities and offer to put their landmarks/architecturally significant buildings in the game for the cost of modeling them all. I'm sure New York would do it.

[Livin in Sim 83]

[bluespottedhorse 49]

I think that once CITIESXL releases the necessary tools for us we will all be happy. At that point people can choose to create or not.