NAM General Discussion Thread

[qurlix 20]

britm2: That's great! Someone actually made a model for their request!
There are, however, two limitations:

1) Interchanges can only be 16x16 tiles, so your piece can only be 16 tiles long ( 256 meters, I believe ). You can always split it up though... (that's why they call them puzzle pieces anyway!)
2) I already realized what I was going to say here isn't necessarily true. Good news! You're down to one limitation!

So, try and follow the interchange tutorial. Once you have models, we can provide a lot more assistance.

highways1: Technically, that's off-topic, but I'm guessing by the fact that you are asking in the first place, that you haven't found the thread. (Go here: Rural HighWay Mod ) Alpha Release #1 (v0.12) is scheduled for Monday, November 14th.

-qurlix

[justcallmesam 2]

Is it possible to build an eight to twelve lane interstate highway like US metro areas with populations of more than one million? Could there also be wider lanes in roads and avenues? I've listed this idea on several threads before, but I have yet to recieve a response at all.

[TheCrybKeeper 300]

Maybe this is a topic you will not want to hear, but.....

The NAM is already so big, I cannot use it anymore. So why request adding this or that, or a next NAM even?

 

Once I removed the NAM; I had a 75% speed increase and was able to replace it with nearly a gig of plug-ins.

 

I can DL hundreds of props, buildings and lots, the only thing that slows down is the games initial load time, or bringing up the selections tabs.

 

The NAM however slows the game play itself and contruction, way WAAAy down.

 

Not only that issue, but I also realized the NAM is correcting problems that are not really problems at all( per my CJ).

 

In my CJ; Grid Secrets: A Tutorial CJ, you can see, that I proved the NAM was not needed for traffic issues. There was never anything wrong with the game as it was.

People have mistaken game aspects for game faults and they are not faults. SC4 was never intended to build realistic cities or real traffic simulations, as per a warning I read once from Maxis.

 

Can't remember the articles origin, but it did say that SimCity4, should not be used to study actual, real world, city planning.

[Keiran Halcyon 0]

frndofyaweh, no one is forcing you to use the NAM. There are plenty of mods, lots, BATs, etc. out there that other people think are not necessary & don't belong in the game. But as long as there are people out there for whom the fun of the game is enhanced by these mods, I say they're worth making. Even if that means using the game in a manner that Maxis didn't intend.

[tungston 19]

Date: 11/12/2005 12:39:15 PM Author: frndofyaweh ....Once I removed the NAM; I had a 75% speed increase and was able to replace it with nearly a gig of plug-ins......In my CJ; Grid Secrets: A Tutorial CJ, you can see, that I proved the NAM was not needed for traffic issues. There was never anything wrong with the game as it was......

Are you serious, Friendofyaweh?  Who could possibly believe a 75% speed increase.  Where's your head?

 

So why are all the intersections, in you so-called tutorial CJ, red from congestion?

 

Caution:  Put brain ingear before engaging mouth

[TheCrybKeeper 300]

Keiran Halcyon: well,......okay, I guess you are correct there. It really is up to each individual what they want and get from the game.

So,

 

Here is what I want:

 

A NAM that gives me all the same parts to build with, but does NOT screw with the Traffic network.

 

I want diagonal highways too!!! I do not want the game mechanics modified though.(this is what slows the NAM down).

 

I want puzzle piece roads and aves and highways, but I do NOT want the paths or automata changed from Maxis' original paths and automata.

 

This is my above quote and what I believe should be said:

 

Not only that issue, but I also realized the NAM is correcting problems that are not really problems at all( per my CJ).

 

My argumant is:

 

The NAM was made incorrectly. Its development was approached from the wrong angle of creation.

 

Instead, I think we should make optional pavement and lanes, puzzle pieces that show several different painted traffic lines, but not effect the traffic itself.

 

 

I really need to learn to use the ILive reader. I could then make my own puzzle piece roadways.

 

this gives me this option below. Keep in mind these are 3 puzzle pieces put together.

 

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//twolaneAve8ty.jpg align=baseline>

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//twolaneAve9vt.jpg align=baseline> notice the variety I have this way to mix and match one strip of road.

 

EDIT:

Tungston: The test is in my CJ. I timed it with a wristwatch and I said here before; I do not lie.

I may say dumb junk or whine and complain, even say something incorrect, but I NEVER tell lies.

I had the NAM and timed the contruction, I took the NAM out and timed the contruction. With the NAM in place, I timed how long it took for the game to freeze up then start then freeze up then start. This goes on continuously, until you take the NAM out. Then the jerking animation stops, unless you are scrolling thru your city. per the seconds and even minutes of freeze time; I found a 75% speed increase, after taking the NAM out.

I did this test with no other files in my plug-ins and no MODs in place, so I could test just the NAM.

 

Red lines? what red lines? I have 97% green, 2% orange and 1% red. intersections are always red, when you put in the parking garages, I believe. Still testing this part out though.

 

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//hut87yuu7.jpg align=baseline>

[tungston 19]

Date: 11/12/2005 1:27:03 PM Author: frndofyaweh Tungston: The test is in my CJ. I timed it with a wristwatch and I said here before; I do not lie.

I may say dumb junk or whine and complain, even say something incorrect, but I NEVER tell lies.

I had the NAM and timed the contruction, I took the NAM out and timed the contruction. With the NAM in place, I timed how long it took for the game to freeze up then start then freeze up then start. This goes on continuously, until you take the NAM out. Then the jerking animation stops, unless you are scrolling thru your city. per the seconds and even minutes of freeze time; I found a 75% speed increase, after taking the NAM out.

I did this test with no other files in my plug-ins and no MODs in place, so I could test just the NAM.

I certainly did not accuse you of lying, or didn't intend to anyway.  I hardly think the test you describe qualifies for proof that without the NAM the game speed increases 75%.  Maybe that was not what meant, but it is what you implied.  In someones words, it was a rush to judgement.

 

EDIT:  Do you not understand that those red intersection are congestion?  They cause increased commute time. 

 

BTW: they are not caused by parking garages.

[frimi2 0]

Date: 11/12/2005 1:05:51 PM Author: Keiran Halcyon ... as long as there are people out there for whom the fun of the game is enhanced by these mods, I say they're worth making...

Amen, Brother Keiran, amen

[mr.v 40]

Date: 11/12/2005 1:19:22 AM Author: brtim2 Ok, I, and presumambly others, are aware of the ability to create causeways with the puzzle pieces. Such as this:

 

wow!! what is this brtim2?

[TheCrybKeeper 300]

okay tungston, Keiran and Frimi: So the NAM is okay for those who want that modification.

Again maybe I shouldn't have brought this up.

 

Maybe Tungston is correct and My mouth moves before my brain thinks it over.

 

I do need to test the parking garages though and post that in my CJ. I know for absolute, that when I placed them, the red intersections, abruptly appeared and were not there before the PG's were placed.

 

My theory is; that pedestrians began to drive to the PG's and then take a bus or subway, where before them, they walked to the nearest busstop or subway station. This caused an abrupt increase in automobile traffic that slowed down at intersections, where all my PG's are at an intersection.

[Keiran Halcyon 0]

The NAM contains versions of the traffic and automata pluggins that do not change the default Maxis behaviors. As for the paths themselves, the only outright changes that were made (that I'm aware of) were fixes to errors in some of the original Maxis intersections. Everything else is optional - whether via an optional pluggin that you choose to include in your pluggin folder (like ATL), or simply not building it in your cities (like GLR).

If this doesn't cover what you meant, it might be better if you listed specific things that the NAM does that you don't want it to do. Who knows, they might become optional features in the next version. (Though realistically, somehow, I doubt it.)

[TheCrybKeeper 300]

okay, when I had the NAM i only installed it and that was that. I even realized later, that I had the lefthanded DAT file still in the folder.

I never tailored the NAM in anyway, just installed it and then played the game.

 

I think the ATL's were the culprit, actually, but that was the feature I loved about the NAM.

 

Frustrating to say the least, because I actually like what the NAM did aesthetically, to my gaming experience. I did not like the jerkiness it caused though, or the slow down of contruction.

 

I boldly posted this topic in the NAM thread. I knew I would get some flak for that.

 

I just though maybe there could be a puzzle piece road set, that doesn't effect the actual Data in the game, just the appearances(eye candy) of realistic roads and aves, etc.

[Ultima 0]

Actually I know the issue he's talking about. There's a major slowdown related to avenues and left-turn lanes... I've seen this huge slowdown myself. It's because all the avenues are joined together, and the game tries to update all of them at once when it updates the median.

I've fixed this problem by breaking up avenues with one-way roads (just bulldozing one tile and replacing it with one way roads), and this fixes the problem for me.

Obviously, that would be far too time-consuming for him to do. I think the problem he's seeing is related to the left-turn lanes and not anything else in the NAM, though.

As for the roads all being green; if any real city in the world built a grid road network like that, they would have huge capacity for cars as well, but speeds would be so low because theres an intersection in every 5 seconds driving at normal speed, lol. Maybe it could be solved by breaking up the city into zones, and in each zone the lights are green for north-south, then switches to green for east-west. Each zone would be at the opposite phase of the adjacent zone (a checkerboard pattern). The zones could be spaced 1 minute apart with signals set to 1 minute so that cars driving at a certain speed always have a green light, in either direction. There would be a problem transitioning from one zone to the next, because that zone is red while yours is greeen, but it only turns green once yours is red. Maybe at the border of zones the green could last 10 seconds longer while the rest of the zone has 10 seconds of all-red, for pedestrians.

[TheCrybKeeper 300]

Yes! that is exactly what happened, Ultima!

Per my Cj: I used all avenues, which meant; I had a total of 1,764 left turn modded intersections, in one large city.

 

This caused my massive 75% slowdown.

 

The Grid only works properly, when the best intersections are used. That is the 4 lane avenue, that can connect to neighbors. The one-ways reduce traffic more than Avenues, but they will not connect to neighboring cities, which defeats the grid style all together.

[Andreas Roth 607]

@frndofyaweh: I appreciate your experiments, but the NAM was not made incorrectly, as you stated above. It was made to add certain things to the traffic network which were requested by the fans, as Keiran Halcyon pointed out. And remember, the NAM is still labeled beta, and probably it will stay beta forever - which means basically use on your own risk. We are no Maxis programmers, and everything that was achieved was only possible because of trying out things, refining them and massive amounts of testing. Everything comes with a price tag, even if it doesn't cost money. For the NAM, it's the possibility that it may slow down your game when using certain features. The turning lanes are labeled beta, too, so you can imagine the risks. If they screw up your game, get rid of them (you have the possibility, without the need of deleting the NAM entirely!). It's simply not possible to make the NAM much more modular, since everything that is related to interchanges, onramps, puzzle pieces and such is controlled by a single file - and there can only be one instance of this file.

[andreharv 1,197]

I believe more testing on my behalf is needed but tell me what you think...I made a city of about 60 to 70 thousand. I was working on it for about 3 days and then I decided to reinstall the nam (to get road turning lanes which actually never seemed to work). When I started the game back up, none of the sims were able to commute. Over time, they all became unemployed and I started losing lots of money so I decided to start over. I wiped out the city (I tend to wipe out cities that I would work months on for little to no reason because inspiration comes and goes ). Anyway, I started a new city and used the existing neighborhood connections to get the city off the ground and to my dismay, the sims were still not commuting. I cannot get ignore this as not fixing this problem would render the game unplayable by any means. Has anyone had this problem or better yet does anyone know what is going on?

[Bones1 96]

Frndofyaweh, despite the way you phrased your posts, I think you brought up a good point. I wasn't aware that turning lanes caused significant game slow-downs. Perhaps this can be addressed in a future NAM.

Although I think NAM is the greatest mod out there, I partially agree with your original sentiment. I think it's better than NAM fix the known bugs and cosmetic issues, before new content is added. Given that it's almost an essential mod, it's important that it's stable.

 

It might be nice to have two separate releases of NAM.

1. A stable release (non-beta), that fixes up all the bugs from the prior releases.

2. A beta release, that is (1) but also introduces new content.

 

That way, people that want a stable NAM can just install (1). Those that want to try out the latest stuff, can use (2). A couple of months later, the bugs uncovered in (2) would be fixed and it would become the stable release.

 

Finally, try removing all the optional parts of the NAM. If you're running with perfect pathfinding, then try using better pathfinding or even the standard setting. That should help with speed in very large cities like yours.

 

I agree that you don't need to use the commute and capacity cheats in order to make a good region. I think those were put in the NAM because people were screaming for cheats. If you have enough roads and good mass transit, they're unneccessary.

[Tolomar 5]

think your promblem may lie with your very tight grid and using the pathfinding.

 

 

your grids to tight....too many stops at the lights...this cloggs up the roads....so the sims try and find a new route that quicker....but it's too clogged too (mainly cuz everyone doing the same thing at once  (sort like everyone hearing a road to busy on the radio and the guy suggests a detour, but by the time you get there the detour too clogged cuz everyone took the detour)

 

I run cities 250K-1mil...I find that the NAM speeds up my game, |I grid, but don't use such tight grids...it slows down the sims and the pathfinding proccess

 

 

[Andreas Roth 607]

@Bones1: The bugfixes are available as separate file(s)! Just download the Transit Bugfix by the7trumpets and the Transit Bugfix Supplement by redlotus, along with larsz' Traffic Cop program to adjust the pathfinding engine, if necessary. The NAM may include two or three additional fixes, but most of the bugfixing work was done before the NAM came out.

[Bones1 96]

No, I don't want non-NAM bugfixes. I really like the NAM, as it adds a lot more than just bug-fixes. However, it would be nice to see some of the stuff it has implemented, completed as non-beta.

For example, things like shadows from road bridges over ground highways needs to be done. Little things like that. Some of the shadows for the puzzle pieces are done, but not all.

 

That's what I meant by issuing a NAM release that doesn't add any new content. Fishish the stuff that's already in it, and then it doesn't have to be a beta.

[brtim2 11]

Date: 11/12/2005 12:02:09 PM
Author: Andreas Roth

@brtim2: It should be possible to create puzzle pieces for that; I suggest to check out the Interchange Tutorial created by redlotus (see pinned thread in this forum). Once you have completed the model in the way it is described in the tutorial, you can hand over the stuff to the modders for creating paths and making puzzle pieces.

quote>

Date: 11/12/2005 6:25:27 AM
Author: qurlix
britm2: That's great! Someone actually made a model for their request!
There are, however, two limitations:

1) Interchanges can only be 16x16 tiles, so your piece can only be 16 tiles long ( 256 meters, I believe ). You can always split it up though... (that's why they call them puzzle pieces anyway!)
2) I already realized what I was going to say here isn't necessarily true. Good news! You're down to one limitation!

So, try and follow the interchange tutorial. Once you have models, we can provide a lot more assistance

quote>

Thanks for the response guys. Now I have another question, who would I talk to about perhaps getting the model file for the road puzzle piece? I would like these to mesh, with the available road way pieces.

And qurlix, yes, I understand the amount of requests greatly outnumbers the amount of workers. Any little bit can help, right?

And I was thinking about making it one large piece (16 tiles long) so it does not add many more pieces to the puzzle piece button. But, that is up for change as this goes on. Alright, off to reading....

Date:11/12/2005 2:17:12 PM
Author:mr. v

Date: 11/12/2005 1:19:22 AM Author: brtim2 Ok, I, and presumambly others, are aware of the ability to create causeways with the puzzle pieces. Such as this: --snip--

quote>
wow!! what is this brtim2?

quote>

That is a causeway created by waterprops and the one way puzzle pieces in a city of mine. I was just fooling around with my water props and created some cities around the water's edge. I had to connect them, that seemed the easiest.


And Edit.
I spent some time tonight working on the bridge. I've come upon my own limitations though. Can this be placed, like a puzzle piece at 16 tiles long? Because that would work the best, actually. I think breaking it up into 1x1 tile pieces makes for a very tedious build. And then the whole TAB issue.

And then I thought, what about making a dragable bridge? I read that is possible, if very tedious in itself. The only question I have right now (give the right answer and there are more questions) can I control how big the 'hump' stays? Anyway, this is what I have been working on. Does it look good? The camera angle wreaks havoc with it. I was originally worried the 'hump' was too large, now it looks too small. Does it look good?

(And should this be moved to the development thread? I just thought of this as I was typing this edit. I guess it isn't a request anymore, well, besides the request for help.)

End Edit

[Keiran Halcyon 0]

That looks good, but, isn't there already a bridge that looks somewhat like that in the game?

Some ideas for yours might be to create it as two puzzle pieces, one for the start/end, and one single-tile long one for the middle span. Perhaps an extra span piece with a support so that if you want to make a long span, you don't have to make it look fragile.

[Swamper77 90]

Brtim,

Your model has to be split up into 1x1 tile pieces for pathing purposes. Through a section in one of the RUL files, you can specify how it is laid out and how it connects to other networks. If you have noticed with the overpass items in the Road Menu, they appear as one piece but are actually made up of several pieces (a piece of the whole model for each tile). The same can be done with yours after it is modeled and pathed.

Just a note, the roadway on the road puzzle pieces is 15 meters off the ground.

 

-Swamper77

[brtim2 11]

Date: 11/15/2005 9:56:13 AM
Author: Keiran Halcyon

That looks good, but, isn't there already a bridge that looks somewhat like that in the game?

Some ideas for yours might be to create it as two puzzle pieces, one for the start/end, and one single-tile long one for the middle span. Perhaps an extra span piece with a support so that if you want to make a long span, you don't have to make it look fragile.

quote>

Yes, yes there is. But in the MAXIS version the 'hump' gets rather large if you have a long bridge. Take for example the Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel Complex. That spans a length of 17 miles over water. Most of it is low level roads with a few 'humps' where the road rises to allow ships to travel through (and some tunnels, but forget those right now). There is no need to make the bridge really high throughout the whole 17 miles, only along the shipping lanes. The MAXIS bridge, however, makes it really tall all the way across the water gap. The plan for my bridge is to make it more realistic in that respect, as well as to be able to attach to puzzle pieces to make diagonal bridges.

Date: 11/15/2005 2:41:25 PM
Author: Swamper77
Brtim,

Your model has to be split up into 1x1 tile pieces for pathing purposes. Through a section in one of the RUL files, you can specify how it is laid out and how it connects to other networks. If you have noticed with the overpass items in the Road Menu, they appear as one piece but are actually made up of several pieces (a piece of the whole model for each tile). The same can be done with yours after it is modeled and pathed.

Just a note, the roadway on the road puzzle pieces is 15 meters off the ground.

-Swamper77

quote>

Yes, I am aware it has to be broken up in little pieces no matter what. I do have it modeled although I will have to change the road height due to your information (I have read different heights in different threads. Thank you.) Then I'll texture, break it apart into little pieces and export them all. Maybe export them tonight. *crosses fingers*

[christhebull 1]

 spent some time tonight working on the bridge. I've come upon my own limitations though. Can this be placed, like a puzzle piece at 16 tiles long? Because that would work the best, actually. I think breaking it up into 1x1 tile pieces makes for a very tedious build. And then the whole TAB issue.

And then I thought, what about making a dragable bridge? I read that is possible, if very tedious in itself. The only question I have right now (give the right answer and there are more questions) can I control how big the 'hump' stays? Anyway, this is what I have been working on. Does it look good? The camera angle wreaks havoc with it. I was originally worried the 'hump' was too large, now it looks too small. Does it look good?

quote>

This is OK, but what does it go over? Or is it just a normal bridge?

[Bee21 2]

It would be good for water as it leaves a big bit for ship's to pass under.

[brtim2 11]

Date: 11/17/2005 2:25:14 PM
Author: christhebull

This is OK, but what does it go over? Or is it just a normal bridge?

quote>

The idea is for the bridge to be an addon to the puzzle pieces to allow low causeways with 'humps' for shipping lanes. It would go over the water, yes, but maybe so much more. It all depends on the end user. And when I do release this I would release another package that would include this:

So, as you can see, this would make it more visible for a shipping lane with protection barriers on each side. But I have to get the bridge out first.

[Keiran Halcyon 0]

Could boats actually pass through a puzzle piece like that? I'm thinking about UDI & ferry functionality.

[smoncrie 43]

With so much discussion about bridges going on, I thought I should try making one.  Here is a new bridge type made from raised road bridge pieces:

https://www.simtropolis.com/idealbb/files//smoncrie%20newbridge1.jpg align=baseline>

I suspect that making a bridge with a hump in the middle is quite possible.

The disadvantage of using puzzle pieces in place of a bridge is that the height of the pieces changes with the height of the sea floor.   I may be wrong, but think that puzzle pieces also block ferry traffic, as Keiran Halcyon suggested.

[ArkenbergeJoe 35]

Date: 11/12/2005 1:19:22 AM Author: brtim2 Ok, I, and presumambly others, are aware of the ability to create causeways with the puzzle pieces. Such as this: > ....

 

quote>

 

Gute Arbeit.

Ich hatte auch mal mit diagonalen Br