Detroit & the Rust Belt

[UltraGIR XL 3]

    Ahhh, dear Detroit and sweet Michigan... is recovery in your reach?

The rust belt, as many of you probably know, is in poor shape at the moment. Some small projects for urban renewal have gone underway in many of the cities (Detroit and Cleveland especially), but will these work?

    I read an interesting aricle online once that said that the immigration problem in the United States will, in fact, aid the Rust Belt cities, as they cost little to live in and have established infrastructure.    But-- and Detroit, especially--- is there any chance for recovery? You, my very well-educated colleagues-- what do you think?

    My most optimistic guess would be that a horrible scandal involving numerous deaths cause by Chinese-made goods will lead to a consumer backlash that will cause companies to partially pull out of the third world back to developed nations, partially restoring the city's manufacturing base. Automobile companies will grab onto the green bandwagon and climb back into their aristcracy more comfortably, just before Michigan's economy collapses (which, as it has been proved true, foreshadows the rest of the United States').

    Optimistic, yes...

[ILL Tonkso 1,239]

Detroit will probably do what Birmingham and Manchester did over on my side of the pond. As the industry declined, the city got rusty. Abandoned buildings everywhere and areas of brownfield in the city centre. Commerce will soon pick up (as i see Detroit already has a good financial base) and due to the cities cheap rents, more companies will locate their offices there. This is something particularly evident in Manchester where the cities office demand has skyrocketed over the past few years. More and more skyscrapers are being approved and the abandoned industrial wasteland is slowly disapearing. Detroit has lot of room for development in the centre, cheap land and the chance to build large buildings with large floorplates and cheap rents is something a smart corporation cant turn down.

[topcliff 1]

Isn't Cleveland in Ohio? Just sayin' . . .

[delldimensions 0]

Detroit may have plenty of land, but it's also got tons of unused office space that needs to be filled before much new development starts.  Mayor Kwame isn't helping the situation much either.  I honestly can't see why he got voted in a second time, what with his scandals and waste.  The last thing Detroit needs is somebody reaching into its pockets so they can have a few more security guards to protect them from their own cruelly underserviced population.

I'm a Livonian suburbanite though, so my opinion is biased about the state of Detroit affairs.

[yoshikoroyimara 5]

Detroit...poor Detroit...well it is hard to say...many of my friends from Michigan actually moved to the west (even to Wyoming...now what's in Wyoming?) because of the decline of Detroit. San Jose, last year, I believe surpassed Detroit in population. I think Detroit will recover, but will never really reach to the same prestige it had decades ago...

[jamietoronto 0]

Detroit has been coming along nicley. I live in Toronto, and have relatives in Windsor. Scince the ninties, it has been improving nicley. I love that new river walk they put in on the Detroit river, theres an example of a recovery happening. The other day i was reading the Toronto Star, an article titled "houses cheaper than cars in motor city." It's a little sad, but I think they have a good chance to come back. They just need to get rid of that reputation of a crime ridden city.... They have nice suburbs.

[Frankie_Grove 32]

Well, the Rust Belt cities are just hitting a transition point. There comes a time when the industry that once fueled a city or region either dies or relocates. The cities must either adapt to this change, or shrivel up and die. Cleveland and Detroit (and those other Rust Belt cities) are just hitting a speed bump, or development rut. Eventually they will get over this obstacle, but it may take time. As prices fall for housing, it may attract new businesses and residents, but that could take years.

This Rust Belt decline is what fuels the explosion of suburban sprawl in the Southern states and Texas. It was estimated in 2006 that 45% of all people living in the Southern US are from the Northeastern states, primarily the Rust Belt cities, as well as other Northern metropolises undergoing serious urban decay. The top 3 sources of migration from the North are New York, New Jersey, and Michigan. The only way to fix a problem is at the source, and something needs to be done, else a the quiet southern rural landscape of farms, locally owned stores, and churches will be erased and replaced with suburban Wal-Marts and enormous residential Subdivisions.

[manman99 2]

ahhh Fooey! It seems a little deep dont ya think. Just take a look at what haooened to Denver some years back, I think in the 50's or 60's im not sure, when Diana and the Supremes were still recording in Denver, the place wreaked havoc. It at one point lost over 100,000 people. But now its not like that anymore, is it the best city in the world, no, but it recovered from its horrid past. Same thing will happen in the Great Lake States. Its like a mini depression, a depression within a city. That also happened in NYC during the 70's, the city was fatigued and on its downfall, but it recovered eventually.

Over time my friends....Things must get worse, before they get better.

[Patdaman1125 0]

I went to cleveland and they are doing alot to make it nicer. they are redeveloping the warehouse district into a hip nightlife place and are brining people back to the city. it also has cheap land and is the headquarters for many helath business. not to mention its metro area is rapidly increasing in size.

[robertg0902 0]

I live in the rust belt and true most of the manufacturing jobs are gone due to out sourcing to cheapper countries such as india and China. but in the future water will replace oil as the most important resource on earth and thats one thing we have is water. Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Cincinnati and other cities in the rust belt will come back as soon as they figure out what is going to be the next new thing that will fuel their economies

[screamingman12 30]

No, I don't think that Detroit can renew itself. The main problem that you have to deal with is suburban sprawl, best combated by mass transit (light rail, subways, etc.). Since Detroit is home to the three major auto companies (or at least GM) who certainly don't want to see their cars sitting unused in people's driveways, they will probably fight any transit legislation.

[canuck3360 14]

actually screamingman you've hit a nail on the head Detroit has tried to get a subway 3 seperate times and all three the auto companies and the last time a mayor who alienated itself from the suburbs fought it tooth and nail. but on the other hand as gas prices hit so hard here in Detroit mass transit has been talked about a bit more they even have plans for a five fingered light rail system that would stretch to Ann Arbor at the furthest west and to Monroe at the Furthest south and Mt. Clemens to the North all 5 lines would meet in a central spot in Downtown and link to the Monorail thats already in place. I live in the western suburbs(canton not to far from delldimensions) and go down frequently and have seen plenty of signs of life being re injected into this city I think if we can ever shake the corrupt mayor syndrome that we've had for 2 of the last 3 (Coleman A Young,and Kwame Killpatrick) who use a race card to help in getting elected we'd have an amazing chance at rebirth.

[drevilshenchman 4]

I was recently reading an article in the newspaper talkign about Cleveland needing more office space desperately. There is talk of building a new skyscraper in Cleveland to meet the demand. Also, the flats (an area by the Cuyahaga river) is building some upper class tenants and businesses. Cleveland is near and dear to my heart and I think it will (and is) recovering.

[82134 0]

compainies will find these areas to be really cheap and to bring people back they will put in new shops, business, and condos into old historic warehouses and factories. they will be modern inside but keeping the traditional old "rustic" feel on the outside. Not to mention it will be super cheap becasue they want to bring people back into the downtown areas of cities. its already happeneing in cleveland so why not in other cities.

[Maxis92 11]

Well as a inner-city Detroiter myself, 2 things the city has on its side is an international port (possibly the best one in the world) and plenty of fresh water.

As the west dries out, these people will either have pipes going from here to the desert, or tehy'll simply move back.

The infrastructure for mass transit is already in place (with the grid system).

However, the huge negatives are the city services. The schools are 3rd world, the bus service is mediocore at best, and the emergency department half the time doesn't even respond to your calls, and when they do, there's no hurry.

Of course, your CEO's and chairmans aren't going to live in a city where these issues can't even be resolved. So they live as far away as possible, and the employers simply follow them.

As for regional growth, the population has remained stagnent since the 70s. Downtown was very dense, vibrant, and centralized until the mid 70s, when the rise in crime, the construction of the RenCen and the arrival of Coleman Young happened. That's what caused the demise of our nice shopping districts and the mass abandonment of the city.

The only thing I see that could save Detroit is real leadership. You see what it has done for cities like NYC and Chicago.

Where the leadership will come from, I have no idea.

[sakarr 1]

i live in cleveland, and each time i go into the center city, things are looking better. theres alot of big new projects going up or being approved.

[WillG_75 19]

Detroit and Cleveland need to avoid the troubles that Columbus has gone through. All industrial jobs have been eliminated in this region and there has been a commercial revolution, except most of the people that live here are factory workers, not businessmen. And since there is no demand for homes since the economy is terrible here, there are no businessmen or industrial workers anywhere, and unemployment has skyrocketed. I actually read an article in the newspaper that mentioned that 1 out of 5 homes will face foreclosure within the next 3 years if the economy doesn't turn around.

[canuck3360 14]

Maxis92 as you said Detroit needs its leadership not a leader who squanders 9million to cover-up an affair as a native Detroiter myself this city has a huge upside of we can get off of it's but and get it on a MassTransit system and start engouraging buisnesses such as Markets,Clothing,Shopping etc... to start commming down and growing the city more.all that said words mean nothing and pineing away for ideas also will do nothing what we need is action and leadership.

[rjm35 0]

i think Cleveland has the right idea. I live in Buffalo and try to get to Cleveland at least a couple times a year. Every time i go i realize that they have the solution to the rust belt dilemma. "How do you get people back into a dying city?" They are reusing their assests. The Warehouse district as stated above is on the up. They are simply redeveloping abandoned industrial properties and making them youth friendly. Just that has gotten people back into the city. There is a similar situation with the Flats in Cleveland. Buffalo has also been adding more living space that has the eye of young professionals. Thay are adapting old warehouses, train stations, and even schools into upscale, affordable lofts. The rust belt solution is adapting your past to meet its future needs. If you get people you will get new business.

[toxicpiano 125]

1 word: GENTRIFICATION

[ILL Tonkso 1,239]

A little government incentive and a new mass transit could do wonders for Detroit. A shiny new mass transit system and a business enterprise incentive and viola, you have Canary Wharf syndrome. Major Corporations ARE willing to locate their offices somewhere considered a little dodgy if their is cheap rent, good security and good mass transit.

[bigskelding 12]

in order to save detroit u have to do a little house cleaning, take down some abandoned houses hear. kick out the mayor there. some progess might be done. there are signs it might be picking up in the motor city. i went down to the windsor water front last week and i actully seen a building being built in detroit. thats a first in years.

[GreekMan 246]

Just take a look at San Diego. SD was horrible in the 1970s but this one mall people flooded into the area. A basebal park and conventioncenter also drove up the real state. SD is a prime example and Detroit could benefit.

[Jasoncw 11,949]

I think that mass transit is really important for Detroit.  It encourages the type of place which is resource efficient and socially productive.  It would also help prevent brain drain, college graduates leaving to Chicago or San Fransisco or New York because they offer an urban lifestyle which Detroit does not.  It would also improve Detroit's image.  It would also make Detroit's poor more productive, because there would be improved accessibility.  These things and more trigger more benefits, which trigger more benefits.

There is a 10 mile stretch of light rail planned for Detroit's main street (Woodward Avenue).  It's not built until it's built, but it's still actively planned and going on schedule.

Another big problem for Detroit is that a lot of it is just flat out ghetto.  I don't really mean the buildings, I mean the people.  Moms who want their kids to drop out of high school and have babies to collect the money.  Nonexistant or abusive dads.  Drugs and gangs (because the kids think they're better off doing that than getting real jobs).  This is a problem that all American cities face, and I have no idea what could realistically be done to fix it.  If these people magically pulled themselves up by their bootstraps Detroit would be booming.  And if every suburbanite moved into city limits, Detroit would have twice the density of New York City.

But I don't think chasing after major corporations or chasing after abandoned buildings are good long term strategies.  For the longterm I think it's better to create an environment which creates and attracts business by its own virtue.  Just because of the environment, I can't imagine innovative business leaders coming out of most of Metro Detroit, while I can easily imagine those people being produced by Chicago or New York.

[Cenobite30 0]

Of course, the problem is a variant on the chicken and egg debate. Will a better environment (parks, mass transit, good schools, citizens that don't suck) bring jobs and eventually prosperity back to the city, or will the jobs and corporations bring the better environment that will bring the prosperity? There are historical examples for each, though I find the latter example much more likely, as it is most supported by economic principles (and the great pendulum of capitalism).

I see a larger problem centered around the current population. I grew up in Detroit. I don't claim to know the mind of every Detroiter, but I do know this: the city lacks a certain something, a thing that I cannot find a name for. Civic pride? Civic responsibility? It seems that most Detroiters feel as though they have no stake in the betterment of the city. That is, with the city being as ravaged as it is by failed leadership and economic circumstances, they feel things will always be that way. Therefore, they see no reason to try to help the city, and instead behave like people looting the jewels of the fleeing rich as they stay on the sinking Titanic. That is to say, their behavior is so self-destructive and nihilistic that they are truly incompatible with the city's recovery. How can you rebuild a city with a population like that? I'm not advocating shipping them off to the camps or anything as ridiculous as that. But what do you do with an unsalvageable population? They need to go somewhere.

Perhaps that was a bit dark. On a lighter and unrelated note, I am new to these forums. I can't seem to figure out how to start a new thread. Do I need to have been a member for a certain period of time or have a certain number of posts in order to make new threads?

[Jasoncw 11,949]

I totally agree with you Cenobite30.

The "New Topic" button is actually at the top of the screen above the rest of the forum. There's the bar that is about the STEX collector's CD, below that there is a blue bar with Private message stuff on it, and then below that is another blue bar which has a New Topic button on it.

[hamsterTK 93]

Detroit and Buffalo are probably the two that seem to have it worst. I have only been to Buffalo but I remember thinking it was a really depressing place.

Cleveland and Pittsburgh I think are on the rebound because they have the means to transition to a post-industrial economy(corporate headquarters, educational institutions, etc). Plus they are somewhat attractive places despite their gritty stereotypes.

[saltandsauce 0]

post industrial cities struggle especially since the service sector is reaching its use by date a lot of populations in these cities expect to do factory jobs and struggle with clerical ones the population is slow to change of course if the factories didn't  flee at first sight we wouldn't have this problem

[SpartanBadger 4]

Quite an interesting topic here...I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but did anyone happen to read the article on Yahoo! the other day about the worst commutes? Detroit was number three-I thought it would have been number one!

[canuck3360 14]

Jason so true about the trigger and benefit effect of Mass transit it's a shame that a project that died in the 1980's would probally have ended up helping the city now(Good ole Coleman A. Young's Suburbs vs. US no Subway is needed(and the Feds were willing to help then))I read about that lightrail in my Metromode(a great City/Buisness email) newsletter the other day and that 10 mile stretch is a great start what they need is to revisit the 5 fingers plan that was shot down a couple years ago

Finger 1-Runs up Fort street from Downriver

Finger 2-Runs up Michigan Ave from Canton/Ypsi

Finger 3-Runs up Woodward from Birmingham

Finger 4-Runs up Gratiot from the East Side

Finger 5-Runs up Jefferson from Mt.Clemens/St.Clair Shores etc...

now off that plan we're giving the middle finger a try.

and cenobite30 I completly agree with you I go downtown alot(in fact on my way down there for the 4th straight day)and the whole civic pride idea is lost round most parts.

Bigskelding that Building you see is teh new Greektown Casino Hotel being built.Driving around the core now I've been seeing alot of construction on the abbonded high rises and that new tower going up is a true sign of progress(what little there is) I've been noticing signs of growth in the city from last summer to now.

and as to Suburbanites moving into the City well this is one Suburbanite that moved from Detroit out to here in the 80's and is now looking at moving into Corktown in the next few months and I've talked to quite a few who are starting to look at moving into Detroit again.