Follow up to last nights chat

DavidBeebe · June 8, 2007

Folks,

We're going on a journey. I'm not going to lie to you. There are changes and the game is different.

like Chris said, 'he respects your decision not to come along' and so do I.

We had an informal chat last night after the screenshots and the article came out.

I came away with four salient points of unhappiness

a) no zones! (why?!)

b) This feels like a City Life clone

c) The game will be not complicated enough

d) Modability is king

I'm very restricted in what I can talk about.

Obviously I'm going to make arguments that coincide with you eventually seeing things our way.

I'm not going to convince all of you that this is great. Some of you have made up your minds.

a) no zones.

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157857&postcount=2

Did the Cathedral in that picture evolve from a zone?

Did the memorial on the island evolve from a zone?

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157744&postcount=85

Did this airport evolve from a zone?

Did the super large tower evolve from a zone?

A lot of you have been demanding the power of being able to make beautiful hand crafted cities 'exactly' how you want them to look.

Two days ago the community was in an uproar because they didn't like the thatched roof house.

Well the good news is you don't have to put down the thatched roof house!

b) This feels like a City Life clone

I can't get into the specifics of our gameplay because it wasn't talked about in the article. The game has also been compared to many other games. I will stick with Chris's statement.

So I must make it crystal clear that, like all SimCity games, this game is a city-building game. It is a city-building simulation. It is a city simulation. It is an urban simulation game. It is a game in which you build cities. Its focus is not on realism and detail (but that's not to say it lacks those things either).quote>

c) The game will not be complicated enough.

Again the pre-article doesn't talk about the mechanics so I can't delve into details. Suffice is to say. There are pushbacks. It isn't a cakewalk. Player strategy influences the outcome.

d) modability is king

Again, I cannot say too much. I can point to other games we've made and let you know that scripting, and graphics have been open for the public to tinker with.

I've wrote down my notes from the chat session and am presenting them to the rest of the development team.

Like Chris, I'm not going to apologize for the game we're making. I'm very proud of it. I want to speak more openly about it. I want to BRAG about it. But I can't. I'm not allowed to. If I do, Chris can get sued and I can get fired.

I've asked the moderators of the chat to send me a copy of the chat just so I can cover my butt before it gets posted.

Nobody is taking SC4 away from you.

When you install the game it isn't going to wipe out any of the work you've done on Sc4. It isn't going to magically un-install Sc4.

I'll be around to continue to not talk about the game.

David Beebe

simcity4crazyguy · June 8, 2007

Before anyone complains, I'd like to make the first post be:

Welcome to Simtropolis David! I just came back after the rumors of an sc5 and stayed here since (2 days ago). Will be here for a while too.

sc

JanYpe · June 8, 2007

We're going on a journey.quote>

We'll just have to see how deep this rabbit hole leads then.

Thanks for the involvement so far.

Braxton · June 8, 2007

Originally posted by: DavidBeebe

a) no zones.

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157857&postcount=2

Did the Cathedral in that picture evolve from a zone?

Did the memorial on the island evolve from a zone?

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157744&postcount=85

Did this airport evolve from a zone?

Did the super large tower evolve from a zone?

A lot of you have been demanding the power of being able to make beautiful hand crafted cities 'exactly' how you want them to look.

Two days ago the community was in an uproar because they didn't like the thatched roof house.

Well the good news is you don't have to put down the thatched roof house!

David Beebe

quote>

Welcome to Simtropolis!

You see, those are only a small aspect of the city. Plopping them is the only way to put them down. I enjoy the ability to ZONE AND PLOP but prefer to ZONE.

You guys are on the defensive at the moment and I suspect will be for some time to come. I know you can't talk much about the game, but maybe you should try to tell us why we should get this game and what does it bring to the world of gaming and Sim City itself.

MrCinatit · June 8, 2007

Thanks for that, David. A couple of free-flowing thoughts and reactions:

a) no zones! (why?!)quote>

I have expressed disappointment just this morning about the lack of zoning - but, as I have said before, I have plopped before. It can be painful - but is it painful because it is boring, or because the SC4 menus system makes it painful? I have some hopes that the new game will take away that pain, and perhaps give us opportunities to create perfect metropolises and recreate cities.

Meanwhile, in a real world, one rarely zones and whatever wants to grow there grows there. I am not sure how many of you have been to city council meetings, but I used to go to them all the time. Any business - industry or commercial - which wanted to build in town was put under the microscope. Not only was housing development discussed - but even the addition to houses were discussed in great detail (want to talk about painful. Sit in on one of those meetings). In a sense, many cities are plopped (or at least Piqua is. Quite poorly).

Zoning? I liked it, but I guess I can do without it.

(On a side note, I hated laying water lines and power grids. Hated it. Mods overcoming this were a dream come true for me).

b) This feels like a City Life clonequote>

It kinda does. Yeah. But, I did not buy City Life because of some of its looks - the thing which pushed me away were the remarkable building repetition. I did see some in the very first shot - the one with the fairgrounds - but honestly have not noticed it as much in other shots. But, it sounds like that more buildings become available to us as our city matures.

c) The game will be not complicated enoughquote>

Hey, you know what, folks - very, very, very, very, very, very few of us on this board have actually played the game. I don't think any of us can say it is not complicated enough until we have played it (or reviews come out).

d) Modability is kingquote>

Modding is indeed very important to a game - and I believe it is realized by every game developer that its modability is a very key factor. Some can be modded more than others. It will be very interesting to see which doors are open for us - and what the modding community will be able to accomplish.

I am sure the Maxis team had little idea what the modding community would eventually turn SimCity 4 into. And while TM has taken a look at the community's accomplishments, I am sure that in the future, there will be many "oh wow! Why didn't WE think of that!" moments abound.

When the idea of the game was first announced, I like many had preconceived notions of "what the game should look like". What we have been shown has been different from that, and many of us are resisting - and many more of us are still simply wondering what this will lead up to. Even though this might not be exactly what we want, I personally am still very willing to give this game a chance.

Yes, I would like a game which creates a city which looks totally lifelike, and acts completely like a realistic city. I would like to virtually walk down that city - but a seriously doubt my system would be able to handle that. But, from the looks of some of the screenies, this could be a start - and a "start" I would be able to run on my piece of junk. Perhaps this is a small step towards that dream.

toxicpiano · June 8, 2007

Originally posted by: DavidBeebe

a) no zones.

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157857&postcount=2

Did the Cathedral in that picture evolve from a zone?

Did the memorial on the island evolve from a zone?

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157744&postcount=85

Did this airport evolve from a zone?

Did the super large tower evolve from a zone?

quote>

Welcome!

I appreciate that you as the developer have actually taken the time to communicate with us. That is an approach that is very uncommon in this industry, and for that we thank you!

Indeed that cathedral etc were not grown, but what I will point out is that probably at least 70% in the average user's cities are grown so it is an enourmous change for us.

You know that they use to have airport zones in sc3k

Also, you can tell us if there is going to be more transportation options that just roads?

Glenni · June 8, 2007

thing is, you most often plop civic buildings, rewards, churches, landmarks , important buildings of the city. then grow the rest like industrial, comercial and res

Albatross Domain · June 8, 2007

For the most part I will have to agree with Mr. C.I understand that for most of the last 20years on SC, has laying pipes for water, subway tunnels and what not. But its obvious they are trying to strike a balance between us veteran players, and trying to introduce a whole new generation of players as well. Their intro, did indeed get off onto a bad foot on one leg and a stump on the other and doing what the "Borg" i.e. EA says they must do. I honestly believe if it doesn't come off, they might (MIGHT) consider changes to SC, that might make the existing series better. But again its a "wait and see".

donarumo · June 8, 2007

Well, Tilted Mill definitely seems to be saying the right things. And I have to say, I can't remember another company being so responsive to an initial reaction like this. So, despite everything I've read so far, I still actually have some hope for this game.

I mean, the dream of SimCity for me is in planning, laying out. and building a city. Yes, I love the micro-management. But it does appear Tilted Mill at least is trying to get the big thing right so I'll give them a chance at least. We'll have to wait and see if the game is any fun or not.

That being said, like the rest of us (I believe) I still hold out hope for a no-holds-bared true SimCity sequel with all kinds of details and a technical level beyond SimCity 4.

simzebu · June 8, 2007

I agree win MrCinatit that most cities are indeed plopped. But the reason that plopping in SC4 is painful is that it is, in fact, boring. Plopping a downtown is fun, but I don't want to imagine plopping the multiple square kilometer suburbs that I have.

And zones, along with the building era selection, allows for the much more diversity, without having to open up a menu and select a different building every time. Think about the time it takes to lay out a city with zones. For me, it usually takes about two to three times as long to do the R and I as it does to plop my Downtown, which usually takes up about a quarter of the city. If I decide to make unique or complex transportation, it'll take longer.

Anyway, Tilted Mill says they are listening. But are they understanding?

Braxton · June 8, 2007

Originally posted by: donarumo Well, Tilted Mill definitely seems to be saying the right things. And I have to say, I can't remember another company being so responsive to an initial reaction like this. So, despite everything I've read so far, I still actually have some hope for this game.

I mean, the dream of SimCity for me is in planning, laying out. and building a city. Yes, I love the micro-management. But it does appear Tilted Mill at least is trying to get the big thing right so I'll give them a chance at least. We'll have to wait and see if the game is any fun or not.

That being said, like the rest of us (I believe) I still hold out hope for a no-holds-bared true SimCity sequel with all kinds of details and a technical level beyond SimCity 4.quote>

They're in damage control mode. First they say it's not a "realistic urban-simulator" then they come along and say it is. They're trying to defend themselves now because the current information on the game is not what people were expecting. They're trying to say the right things now because of what they initially said. I've seen other companies get involved with the fan community do a better job than Tilted Mill is doing.

I don't want to plop a city and work on getting my SIMS to be wealthy and obedient and whatever else. That's not what Sim City is to me.

BurroDiablo · June 8, 2007

I remember in City Life there was 'Drag plopping'... maybe that'll be implemented into the game so suburbs and large industrial zones will be less hassle to build.

Either way and I'm sure I speak for the majority here, I prefer Zoning alot more than Plopping... it was tedious and boring in City Life and I can only imagine this will be the same...

GingerBlokey · June 8, 2007

I was chatting earlier with you and all I can say is thanks. Thanks for doing what EA doesn't and coming into the community to talk to the fans. Im sure you must have realised that "dumbing down" any game is never going to impress the core fans and Im sure that you got a pretty strict brief from EA.

All I can say is that it's EA's fault and there is no point blaming the middle man. I shall use this crappy analogy:

EA have fired a master craftsman skilled in making watches, replaced them with someone who is good at making boots and expected them to come out with something better. Here at ST we seem to have got into the mentality of blaming the bootmaker. Its EA who has done us wrong.

Anyway .. thanks Dave

schm0 · June 8, 2007

Mr. Beebe,

I would like to make a few notes on your post and try to address some of the things you wrote in response to our users feedback.

Originally posted by: DavidBeebe Folks,

(original post edited for brevity)

a) no zones.

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157857&postcount=2

Did the Cathedral in that picture evolve from a zone?

Did the memorial on the island evolve from a zone?

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157744&postcount=85

Did this airport evolve from a zone?

Did the super large tower evolve from a zone?

(content edited)

quote>

The short answer is: no.

Obviously, a vanilla version of a game will not include everything a user could ever dream up in his or her wildest fantasy, thus the availability for customizable content is a very important aspect to our humble Simtropolis community. A medieval church or honorary memorial is not something like a 7-11 or office building that you could find on every other corner in any city in the world. Each one is unique, and thus, they are available as a "ploppable" option for those who wish to download it.

The power to control those specific options have always been a part of SimCity, and include parks, utilities, and transit networks, among other things. These are all examples of existing "ploppable" things in the game. The concept of zoning is to create areas that simplify the building process, i.e. guiding the game mechanics specifically towards the type of building you want to grow there. The custom areas above were painstakingly designed to look precisely the way they do.

Did they use customizable content that "plops" down on the grid? Of course.

Are they found every 3 blocks? No.

Zones provide the user a way to quickly and efficiently "grow" a specific type of building in a specified area, without having to search through 200+ icons and find the correct "ploppable " for each tile.

I undersand your argument, but I think you misunderstand the importance and utility of zoning, and specifically how it applies to SimCity.

Perhaps the reason for the lack of zones is the nature of your game design itself... I conject that the philosophy of your game is much different than SC4 and this is at the core of what gamers are upset about. SimCity fans want a realistic city simulator. Most of us are agreed that we already have social simulators (The Sims 2) and historical simulators (Civilization IV, many others) and don't need or want a cross-breeding of the two.

(content edited)

d) modability is king

Again, I cannot say too much. I can point to other games we've made and let you know that scripting, and graphics have been open for the public to tinker with.

I've wrote down my notes from the chat session and am presenting them to the rest of the development team.

Like Chris, I'm not going to apologize for the game we're making. I'm very proud of it. I want to speak more openly about it. I want to BRAG about it. But I can't. I'm not allowed to. If I do, Chris can get sued and I can get fired.

I've asked the moderators of the chat to send me a copy of the chat just so I can cover my butt before it gets posted.

Nobody is taking SC4 away from you.

When you install the game it isn't going to wipe out any of the work you've done on Sc4. It isn't going to magically un-install Sc4.

I'll be around to continue to not talk about the game.

David Beebe

quote>

I don't think anyone here believes that your upcoming title will replace the game we have been playing for 3+ years. Custom content is still pouring in, the best of which is enough to fill two entire DVDs (provided by Simtropolis.) What we were waiting for was an updated and modernized version of the game that has been around since 1989.

The game we were expecting is a realistic and detailed urban simulator, which is what has brought the franchise it's success and durability.

The game we were expecting would herald new aspects of gameplay that do not fundamentally change the game itself, but add to it's existing structure and promote it's functionality and playability.

The game we were expecting does not look like or sound like SimCity: Societies.

Please don't misread that last statement. I think most of us are in a state of flux. We don't and can't have access to the information we want, so we sit and speculate based on vague (albeit contractual) statements from your Design staff and a half-dozen screenshots. We speculate and debate and grumble and moan and in the end, vent our frustrations out on each other and you.

We appreciate your candor and communication. We welcome you and your staff to our humble home on the web, and implore you to engage us despite our sometimes hostile comments. We look forward to any and all updates and information that you can provide.

Whether or not the majority of Simtropolis is happy with the final product, only time will tell. Please bear with us and please continue to pay attention to our concerns.

Sincerely,

Skyfire2275 · June 8, 2007

Welcome to our community!

I am glad that Tilted Mill is taking an interest in communicating with us!

There is one major point that seems to have been missed in your 4 points.

e) Transportation Networks: we want variety.

And I'm not talking about the surface of the roads (brick dirt, cracked pavement, cement)

So far from the screen shots the roads only seem to follow a grid... not even diagonals... This is definitely NOT a good thing. No real cities in the world are built entirely like that. The one thing we have been craving for since Simcity was first out is the ability to draw roads freely. Obviously, I understand this is not easy to do and I will definitely accept the next best thing. But given what SimCity 4 can do, I would atleast like to see an improvement. I didn't even see and two lane or one way roads... or divided avenues, or wide roads with two-way turn lanes down the middle.

Also absent are highways (so far anyways, I have only seen a handful of screenshots)... Which is the other big complaint about SC4... the lack of options to make highway interchanges as they are done in real cities. Check out some of the pictures on Wikipedia under "freeway". I want to be able to make some of those in SimCity. Like 18 lane highways, twisted interchanges, etc. Obviously again, this is not all possible, but I also see that there could be improvement over SC4.

Another point is dual networks like highways over roads or elevated rail and/or monorail over roads. Real cities are like that, and there is not point making these in a crowded downtown areas if they go over empty terrain.

This brings me to my next point... mass transit? Do we get busses, trains, subways, light rail, elevated rail, monorails, trams, etc... Lots of things that are absent from SC4, but could be included. The Tram system is the one I think many of us want. It adds a lot of class to a city.

Goldfish4209 · June 8, 2007

Originally posted by: DavidBeebe

a) no zones! (why?!)

a) no zones.

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157857&postcount=2

Did the Cathedral in that picture evolve from a zone?

Did the memorial on the island evolve from a zone?

http://www.tiltedmill.com/forums/showpost.php?p=157744&postcount=85

Did this airport evolve from a zone?

Did the super large tower evolve from a zone?

A lot of you have been demanding the power of being able to make beautiful hand crafted cities 'exactly' how you want them to look.

Two days ago the community was in an uproar because they didn't like the thatched roof house.

Well the good news is you don't have to put down the thatched roof house!quote>

Well, I think we all seem like hypocrites to you, ranting about wanting zones but plopping everything in existence, but both combined make the best results. Both novices and veterans won't want to spend precious time plopping their way across the map, and prefer for the game to make a giant plot of land grow by itself. Plopping is great, and zoning is great, but not by themselves.

BurroDiablo · June 8, 2007

Skyfire hit the nail on the head!

Although, drawing roads may be a little hard to do, i think a few people have mentioned 'Point to Point' road building... that sounds alot better if you ask me.

Spinmaster · June 8, 2007

Mr Beebe, Mr Beatrice, and everyone else at TM and EA: I want Sim City Societies to succeed. I really really do.

a) Many people do like to plop everything. Most of them get bored fast. The only reward in 100% plopping is making exactly what you want. But you made it. Nobody rewarded you with it. Some people like that. I'm not one of them, and from most accounts here, I'm in the majority. Part of the enduring charm of the game is plopping some things to influence inspired growth. It is very satisfying when a player-mayor creates a little paradise or ghetto with parks and other mayor-chosen buildings, and then watches the people decide to build something amazing. If I want a beautiful mansion, I can plop it. I'm already bored just saying that. I want to make a nice area and watch the sims appreciate my work by building a beautiful mansion, or towering skyscraper, or even a nasty filth-belching factory, if that's what I was going for. And this is part of the realism - City Hall makes big decisions about civic buildings, transportation, etc... The people build what they want based on what the city heads allow, and what services and amenities are provided. Build a ghetto, get tenements and trailer parks. Make a paradise, watch the sims thank you with beautiful condos and mansions. THAT is its own reward, and it's very satisfying. By taking away zones and making us plop everything ourselves... Leggos would keep my interest longer, I think. Allow it? Sure - as I said, some enjoy that. Make that the core of the game? Good lord, please no.

b) Dunno about this, I will say the graphics are clearly more stunning than CL. Anyway I don't like to complain by comparing two games. Sim City is Sim City. City Life might actually be excellent for all I know, so long as I don't approach it expecting a Sim City type game. But there's the problem with SCS: with the next officially-titled "Sim City" game, I am expecting a Sim City type game. So is everyone else who enjoys it today. Even the ones that don't play because it's "too complex" - they still wish they could handle it.

c) Some people like a game you can "win." Sim City is not nor ever was one of those games. It's a game of creation. As such, it's never the same game twice. Why? Because what you call "complexity" we call "options" and "features" and "choices." To a creative game-player, reducing his/her palette is simply intolerable. This is the key point being missed, I think. This is what a and b stem from (and why d is a concern as well). But - I understand the need to simplify things a bit. Question: instead of taking away the palette the veterans love (and by the way, veterans were new players once, too) and continue to love to this day, keeping even the oldest versions thriving for decades, have you considered simply adding some brushes? Some way to let the game "think for you" to handle the issues that are too complex to some, but still let those of us who actually like the micromanagement to continue it? Heck I'd love to have an advisor become a "director" and handle keeping my 50+ schools budgeted correctly. Some like doing that, I don't. But I do like other micromanagement features. Maybe another director proposes a new mass transit network, and I just say yes or veto it and build my own, or tell that director to leave me alone. This would make new players happy, and not take anything away from the vets. Putting "helpers" in would satisfy everyone, new and old, "just a fun game" and "realistic simulation" fans. Consider this, PLEASE.

d) Nothing to refute here, I understand your necessary silence. I do feel the need to emphasize how important this issue is though, and why. Understandably, no development company can come up with so many varieties of buildings, parks, power plants, etc... all by their lonesome. A lot, sure... but there's a limit, and it's quite understandable. And asking the public for suggestions wouldn't work - you'll have way too many of them and have to disappoint 99% of them. Letting the public make their own (and also with a large palette) is crucial. The initial variety in SC4, frankly, wasn't great. But I'm not complaining, because there's 1000x more "stuff" made by skilled fans - exactly as it should be for something of this scale. Without the custom content, I would've given up Sim City years ago. Actually I did, before I rediscovered Simtropolis and all it had to offer, followed by several other sites. Note that it's not necessary to make customization duh-simple. Too simple will mean it's all garbage. Those with skills make incredible stuff. Me, I can't make a dern'd thing, and I know it - but I still love the game because of how much wonderful custom content there is from those who do possess the skills. Even crap, I appreciate, 1) because it's better than anything I made "I don't even have a piece of [crap], I have to envy [be grateful for] yours" 2) they tried, and often they succeed later, or inspire someone else to make something incredible.

Nobody is taking SC4 away from you.quote>

A-men to that. But I want you to inspire me to leave SC4 on my own, for a bigger better playground. You're not going to accomplish that by taking away the sand. I hope this isn't regarded as a flame, it's a serious wish, I WANT SIM CITY SOCIETIES TO SUCCEED. I want to want it. No - I want to need it. But if you take away an artist's brushes, he won't really care how much better the canvas is. If you do this with SCS, it will likely end up in the bargain bins within a year. I don't want that. But it's what happens any time the overall foundation of a game is taken away, and "the whole point" is essentially discarded. Imagine ID Software says "Doom 4 won't have so many guns." Or EA says "Madden 2008 won't make you deal with a play-clock." Do you honestly believe the fan-base will just swallow it?

Albatross Domain · June 8, 2007

In reference to what Skyfire said, I also wrote this on a previous thread refer to the fact that roads on SC:S are all 90

pnorrell · June 8, 2007

OK - I think Schm0 and Skyfire have made excellent comments and I hope you will read them. On the off chance this will all do any good, I'll chip in my 2 cents as well...

First off, thanks to David Beebe and the rest of the TM folks for engaging us. I do hope this is not just spin or damage control but a genuine attempt to solicit input from the community of loyal fans. If it is, it would seem to be coming a little late in the game's development, but so be it...

Next, I'd like to apologize for the rough treatment you folks have gotten both here and in your own house, over at the TM forums. Please realize this simply reflects a great deal of passion people feel for the game and frustration at events spiraling apparently out of their control in an unexpected and undesired direction.

Now - our concerns. I'm sure it's difficult for you guys to wade through all the hail of emotional comments and and get to exactly what is bothering all of us. I don't know what transpired in the chat session but, with all due respect, the 4 points you mention, while significant concerns, are missing the real point. First, your 4 points:

Zoning/plopping - True, many of us plop for hand-crafted areas to look just right but plopping entire cities is tedious and not what we want. This also implies that city sizes must be limited. You can't hand-plop a whole NYC, for example.

CityLife Clone - What feels like CityLife are the cartoonish, low-poly graphics. Most of us have high-end computers and you can even get pretty powerful video cards and processors for moderate prices these days, so we want a game that will make use of all that. 3-D is great but not if it turns it into a cartoon.

Not Complicated - This doesn't mean "not a challenge". I'm sure, as game designers, you know how to make whatever game challenging for the player. The issue is in what way is it a challenge. SimCity, since its inception, has been an urban planning challenge - public transportation, zoning, desirability, green spaces, public education, sewerage/ sanitation, crime, fire, commute times, etc. This is the "complication" we love and want more of.

Modability - YES! It has to be open to modification and creation of custom content. HAS to be.

All of that said, the real concern is much more of a "big picture" issue than these 4 points. They go to the very nature of what the game is. We like solving the challenges of building and maintaining infrastructure for a modern city. We like getting commuters to their jobs, educating the population and managing the environment. We like building realistic-looking and playing cities, on a realistic scale. We like being able to recreate real-world cities or build our own imaginary utopias (or dystopias).

In short, we enjoy being "mayors" in the largest possible sense of what a mayor is in reality - responsible for the efficent, clean, well-running, responsive, thriving machinery that is a modern city.

In response to what some of the early press, TM staff and Dirk's interview with Rod Humble have stated, this game sounds like social engineering, not city planning. Cities do not "feel" different because of their societies, simply. Rather, societies create visible, tangible outgrowths that we feel and that shape the cities they build. The world's cities feel different because of:

- their architecture and geography - so give us back building tilesets and give us the option to add more - asian, middle-eastern, sub-saharan, south pacific, south american, desert, arctic!

- their layout - so give us diverse network options, from dirt roads to mega highways and from streetcars to maglev trains. Give us narrow, cobblestone streets and broad tree-lined avenues. Give us grand central squares and quiet cul de sacs.

- their services - so give us management of the infrastructure. In fact, why not more infrastructure? Communications, natural gas, electricity, clean water, sewerage, sanitation - the availability and quality of these things are major defining characteristics of the world's cities. They separate third-world cities from rich ones and European from Asian from North American.

- their neighborhoods and cultural life - so give us the option to create rich suburbs and teeming ghettos, artists' communities and central business districts, Chinatown, Little Italy, The Polish Village, Spanish Harlem, Soho, Montmartre, Mala Strana, The Red Light District... Haight-Ashbury!

All of these things are, for sure, an outgrowth of the society that lives there and that builds these cities but as mayor, you do not control that society, promoting "obedience" or "materialism" or whatever other 4 or 5 oversimplified stereotypes and that is not what we want either.

Albatross Domain · June 8, 2007

I also forgot this as well. When SC2K's sequel came (SC3K), people were just happy to have it because it followed the same tradition of its predecessor (new GFX, and a much better interface), sure ppl had some difficulty of learning it, I know I did, but over a short period time, I learned... just like riding a bike... (If you got some kind of attn deficit disorde, thats your own problem), even with limited abilities of the computers back then, it was game to be reckoned with. SC4 came out with both excitement and a luke-warm response initially, but again ppl got quickly over it.

David and Chris consider this, if SC5 (aka SC:S) is successful... create a game with the current workhorse (SC4) and your version... as a follow up... what made SC4 what it is today was the fact back then 'The Sims Series' and Sim City were fused, and ultimately successful, in not just this country but literally around the world, and all walks of life, and maybe extend the genre another 20years. As my Moniker says: A-Train's never been the same, since SC became the game... SimCity Player (since its inception of the series) since 1989!

Dark_Jedi06 · June 8, 2007

I'm largely in agreeance with Mr. C on this and will be reserving any final judgment until the game is out and I can give it a test run for myself. For all the work the developers have said that they've put in, we all owe them at least that much. As for what David has pointed out...

a) no zones! (why!?)

I actually realized this as I was reading your post, but I've plopped pretty much all or most of my cities since discovering Simtropolis a while back. We say that plopping is tedious, but so it is waiting for the perfect building to grow while demolishing all the other ones that appear. My current City Journal is themed with an older German/European architecture and if I didn't have any ploppable buildings it would take forever to grow my cities "traditionally". My final thought: Getting rid of zoning, though a core part of SimCity since the beginning, is fine by me. I just hope that they do something to the menus...like give us the option to customize where buildings appear in the menu.

b) This feels like a City Life clone

I think it's too early to be declaring something like that...currently we have only seen what are most likely preliminary screenshots and still have no clue as to how the gameplay will operate.

c) The game will not be complicated enough

Once again, it is way to early for that. They haven't even released the most basic of details on how the game will work, however it's obvious somehow from the screenshots that it will be too easy. Huh?

d) Modability is king

Yes, it probably is one of the most important factors. What has kept SimCity 4 alive since the release of Rush Hour almost four years ago? The custom content community by far. With new buildings, landmarks, networks, etc always in the pipeline, things never get dull and a breath of fresh air is pumped into the game.

My final thought is a question...how will cities interact? One of the greatest step ups from SC3000 to SC4 was the addition of terraformable regions, and being able to put all of your cities together to form a cohesive body. Will there being terraforming? Or regions? I hope so...I'd hate to go back to the days of finishing one city, then going onto another without ever looking back.

dev · June 8, 2007

Originally posted by: pnorrell OK - I think Schm0 and Skyfire have made excellent comments and I hope you will read them. On the off chance this will all do any good, I'll chip in my 2 cents as well...